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[Sylverone]

I'm glad to see some good discussion happening here. As far as intellectual property issues go, yes, I will ask permission for all stories used. It would probably also be safe to keep a record containing a quote of each person's permission statement word-for-word.

And yes, the inside-joke issue is something I've been thinking about. I believe that to a certain extent it could be mitigated.

Firstly the intro to the book would serve to give some history behind the game and explanations for certain things that people wouldn't understand. It is still a big issue since I can't expect everyone who gets the book to play the game (especially in its current level of development).

I think that before deciding whether 'outsiders' would want to read this, we'll need to see how many good stories we can gather together.

Also, many of these stories would require grammar checking. I could probably do a lot of that, but once again, permission is required.

I suppose my first order of action would be to search the wiki to see which stories are easily available there, since those are already in the public domain. I still believe that permission is required to legally use them, and even if not, I'd like to get permission for as many of them as possible, simply out of respect.

[Kagus]

You might want to consider taking the second "from" out of your sig before doing so, just to make a good impression.

[Heavy Flak]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I don't think this is been fully thought out.  Let's just break down the biggest steps that will need to be taken in order for this to succeed.

1) Toady will need to give his blessing.  As the owner of Dwarf Fortress he has full say what is, and isn't acceptable use of his product.  I don't claim to know him or be able to read his mind, but the fact that he's always pushed aside any attempts to "help" him code and has only made the smallest of mentions that he even reads the stories leads me to believe that publishing a work based on his game wouldn't fly.  At the minimum, all references to the game would need to be removed; specifically the languages and possibly the randomly generated names and some game specifics - like nobles, hammerers, and how certain creatures behave.

2) Every single person who has ever worked on a community / succession fortress would need to give their real name and written consent.  Let's use Boatmurdered as an example since it, and Nist Akath, seem to have brought in the most people.  Let's pretend 12 separate people worked on Boatmurdered.  Every single one of them would have to give their consent, otherwise the story as a whole couldn't be used, giant chunks would be missing.  You couldn't "rewrite" the sections for those that refused because then you can be sued by the property holder.  Unlike a criminal case, with intellectual properties it's the burden of the person BEING sued to show they didn't actually steal/reproduce things illegally.  I haven't read the somethingawful ToS, but there's a chance that everything written on that forum is owned by the website, not the actual people that write it, and there's an even bigger problem you've just opened.

3) Assuming that the top two actually go without a hitch, you now have money to be concerned with.  Using Boatmurered again.  If one person out of <however> said, "I want $300 or you can't use my section." you're now in a tough spot.  Either you leave the entire story out, or you pony up the money.  The second everyone else finds out, there will be hard feelings.  They'll want their $300, or they'll want more because they actually wrote the funny parts.  The second this begins to make ANY money - regardless of how noble "all proceeds go to Toady" is - people are going to start wanting their cut for the weeks or months they spent writing a story.

4) Lastly, no brick-and-mortar publishing house will touch this with a ten foot pole.  This is NOT marketable and with the number of collaborators that might need a payout they'd wash their hands of the whole thing entirely.  You're asking to sell a bunch of stories to a single, small audience that most likely have already read these stories a couple times beforehand for free.  The best that could be done would be a self-publisher, the majority of which are incredibly shady and take a huge, huge, huge cut of any money you could possibly make.  This now leaves you with a growing list of artists who could possibly want compensation from an incredibly shrinking pool of profits.

I'm going to leave out all the other, "smaller" issues, like clean up work, the fact that as entertaining as a lot of stories are they aren't actually that well written, that to anyone who hasn't played the game they'll seem like indecipherable gibberish...  

Instead of "putting the stories [already written] to use", why not create something entirely separate?  Break it away from Toady's work so it can't be nixed from up high.  Only have a few collaborators so everyone is rewarded deservedly.  Make it generic enough fantasy that a much larger audience could enjoy it while still slipping in little inside jokes for the Dwarf Fortress fans.  

The Dragon Lance novels have made LOTS of money by being generic enough fantasy that is loosely based on the Dungeons and Dragons world.  Ignore that the books are poorly written and incredibly cliched; they're still considered a fun and light read in a genre that does well.  Having a book "based on the hit game Dwarf Fortress" does many things - it allows you to break away from the game and do more things, it allows more creative freedom, it allows authors to get compensated, it gives publicity to Toady and his game, and by actually being "really" published, not online published, it allows you to give "some of the proceeds" to Toady as a thanks for all the work he's done.

tl;dr: I don't like this idea at all, and there's a lot that can go disastrously wrong.  Write something new and separate, get paid for it, and give Toady a small cut.

[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: Heavy Flak ]

[dreiche2]

Edit: haven't seen the above post

Hm, I don't want to spoil the fun (really), but I have to say I'm also very sceptic about this idea.

First of all, you seem to be a little bit too optimistic, for example:

 

quote:Originally posted by Sylverone:
<STRONG> It is still a big issue since I can't expect everyone who gets the book to play the game (especially in its current level of development).
</STRONG>

Do you really think anyone would buy the book who hasn't played the game? You can read so many stories and fan fiction for free on the internet, why would someone pay to read something about some - at this point - obscure game with confusing screenshots?

Also, I doubt that demanding money for things that you can read for free on the internet anyway works...

Finally, getting permission might be much more complicated than you think. Take for example boatmurdered, which was written maybe a year ago with the participation of at least five people or so...

 

quote:Originally posted by Istrian:
<STRONG> I think some of the pictures will have to be reworked by skilled artists. I mean, I don't think there are that many people (outside these boards) who would understand ascii art. If need be, I can contribute passable handmade maps.
</STRONG>

I think many of the stories are funny because you know in what context they happened, i.e. that they happened in a game. Hence, I don't think removing the connection to the game is a good idea.

I guess if anything then a free e-book would make the most sense. I mean, people can get DF for free and donate if they want, why should they pay for stories  about it they can read for free anyway?

[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: dreiche2 ]

[Kagus]

Game stories can only be enjoyed by those particular gamers.  It's like an inside joke, nobody else will get it unless they understand the full setup.

However, Heavy Flak's post got me thinking about something...  Although the idea of a DF story compilation is indeed a bit... Well, doomed, there are a few relatively skilled writers around here.

Just poke enough of them into writing a short story or two that is completely unrelated to Dwarf Fortress and can be fully grasped without any background information about whatever made-up mythos you're using, and then put those together and sell them as a bundle for a very low fee on the internet.

There's a book hanging around here called "The Book With No Name", written by Anonymous.  It's a pretty piss-poor book, but it's sitting there with its tangible cover and the statement that it first achieved fame and fortune when it was posted on the internet.

Note that the only other known alias of this particular Anonymous is called "The Burboun Kid" (also one of the main characters of the story).

It would have nothing to do with DF other than the fact that at least some of the proceeds would go to Tarn Adams in the form of a donation.  However, you'd have to rely on the actual skill of the storytellers, rather than just the inside jokes.

I still think that Toady should give his permission before anything starts moving, however.

[umiman]

Why do you have to charge for the book though? I agree that publishing a book with the intent of profit is economically suicidal, but there's nothing wrong with publishing one by fans for fans. Technically, all we need is a .pdf compilation with book-like formatting and we can print our own if we wanted. Nothing really wrong with that. The costs would be minimal (probably nonexistent).

I for one would like a compilation of Dwarf Fortress's best fanfiction (is it really fiction though?). It could even retain the same formatting as the story was crafted, with accompanying screenshots and user art.

[Keizo]

Ebook idea wins.

Don't charge for it though. Let it be downloaded for free, and if it sparks more imaginations, they'll download DF, play it, and become donating regulars like the rest of us.

[ May 15, 2008: Message edited by: Keizo ]

[Sylverone]

Firstly, many bring up the point that Toady's consent is first priority. Don't worry, that was the plan.

Secondly, I have thought about the potential legal problems. Actually, I was hoping a few others would pipe in and discuss the feasibility of the idea. I was more or less just posting what the idea was when I first thought of it.

The idea of an e-book may very well work, and of course, it doesn't need to be for money.

This has lead me to another idea which I hadn't mentioned yet. I don't really like  the idea of making mostly non-DF stories with some vague references for people to catch. I haven't read any stories recently, so I'll need to do that to see for myself how difficult an outsider might find it to understand. I do know that in many stories, casual references are made to things like "the river" or "the chasm" (these are mostly from older stories, but there are similar things in recent stories I'm sure). I still believe that putting the worthwhile fanfics in a sort of compendium (and using a book-like form) would be fun and worthwhile.

The thing that lead me to propose the idea was the fact that there ARE indeed some decent writers around here, whose stories have draw for more reason than just being DF related.

Maybe a better idea is to begin gathering stories now by asking that people write and submit them for possible composition. This too has issues, such as actually GETTING any submissions.

Really, I'm pretty open on this. I wonder how well a DF story contest would go over? Anyone have any good ideas that haven't been mentioned? DF has lots of story potential, and so does this community. I want to see it expressed, and that was my main reason for suggesting anything.

[Davion]

Why not just organize a sister wiki that serves as a story repository for Dwarf Fortress, that way people that just want to read the stories without all the clutter of the forum can do so.

It's less shady since the community has more control over it.

[ May 16, 2008: Message edited by: Davion ]

[Bricktop]

If this is done, then it should be as an e-book. Maybe make it cost just a few dollars with all of the cash going to Toady, or just make it free with a prominent link to the donate page.

This would have a small target audience, so don't go expecting it to be a best-seller or anything, the stories are in of themselves actual in-jokes in many cases (find someone who has never played DF before and see if you can even begin to explain the humour behind butchering kittens. Even explaining the game would be of no help whatsoever.)

I think it would be a good idea, and either way we should start gathering stories into an archive now.

Another issue is that people have been saying that this idea should wait until DF reaches v1.0 ...I wasn't aware that it would ever get quite as far as 1.0 ...I mean, have you looked at the dev lists? As such, if we do make this e-book then I think it should be made in sections. For example, the first section gets made and the community likes it and people donate to toady and its all yays all round. And then some people, inspired by these works, make their own stories. By the time a year or so has passed, these stories will be starting to completely fade out of view, and so you'll need a 2nd section to add on.

Actually... just got thinking... sorry about the ramblyness of this post, but an idea has just occured to me. Make a website or a wiki, and use that has this "e-book" instead. The site could simple be an archive of DF stories, interviews and general goings on and whenever a story becomes well known and 'good enough' (how we'll decide what is 'good enough, I don't know, but nvm) then it gets added to the archive site. And the site has a big link pointing towards the donate page here. Thats important.

[Sylverone]

I hadn't thought about creating a special wiki. I'm afraid I'm not the one to do it, however. Is there anyone around here who could set it up?

[Dasleah]

I suggest Wikia. I've worked with them before, and they're pretty good. Free, too  

[martinuzz]

@Keizo: Now I'm curious. What does your undersscript mean? To-kyo-sei? Made in the city of East?

[Kagus]

Heh heh, "Made in China".

Yes yes, I know that's not China, but we don't have anything made in Japan these days.