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[ShunterAlhena]

Hi folks,

Just a little something I've been thinking about a lot.
What do you think about our great Toad's programming?

In one hand he is doing miracles. Created a coherent, very deep and complex, yet well-working system that is essentially bug-free (yea, I know about the 300+ bugs that are on file, but how many bugs did YOU encounter? how many crashes? now, how many crashes did you experience in GTA3, Half-Life2, Dawn of War, *random big budget game here* etc.?). Therefore he must be a genius.

On another hand he himself admitted that he doesn't know the first thing about multithreading (too bad, since pathfinding etc. could be just marvelously multithreaded, resulting in massive performance boosts... i.e. both cores of a Dualcore used, not just one) - this implies the lack of a formal education, or at least the lack of an up-to-date one. So his code may have been written on inspiration, without formal methodology, and might therefore lack high level design and coherent superstructure.

On yet another hand, he changes the way the world is generated in days. Without much retroactive testing and new initiated bugs. So the code must have a well defined, easily malleable structure or this wouldn't be possible at all without horrible problems.

So I'm at a loss here. A natural talent, like +raw crystal glass+?

[ May 12, 2008: Message edited by: ShunterAlhena ]

[Glaughdram]

quote:Originally posted by ShunterAlhena:
<STRONG>[Toady] admitted that he doesn't know the first thing about multithreading [...] - this implies the lack of a formal education, or at least the lack of an up-to-date one.</STRONG>

Not so. As of now, the art of multithreading is in its infancy. Any demonstration of it's efficient use is an anomoly. Multithreading is now the greatest hurdle in program optimization, and far from being an established practice.

[darksaiyan]

AFAIK, Toady has a Ph. D. in Math, so that makes him automatically organized and efficient. This is the first reason. The second one is the fact that everything in WorldGen he does is based on parameters. You only have to change some parameters to get the world to stop making cliffs for example.
You can also figure the fact that Toady has been working on the game for six years now, be it more or less, but working six years on code will really seek as necessary the best organization of his lines of code.
Most of the bigger budget games don't have as much time as Toady has to release their game, and the fact that DF is updated frequently gives the players enough to do, as well as enough feedback for Toady to keep him going. You MUST release GTA4 if there is so much hype and the game has been delayed for 2 years now, as a small example.
Another thing that differentiates between Toady and other companies is the fact that Toady is one, and he is the entire developer of the game, whereas companies have multiple programmers. Of course Toady is talented, as well as damn ambitious, but he is also intelligent, and I bet he will master multithreading once or some other time.
All in all... Support the Toad, a natural resource!

[Dae]

"A well defined, easily malleable structure"?
Depends who looks.
I'm sure it makes sense to Toady's mind, which is the one and only important thing as long as he's coding alone. But nothing says you'll understand anything by reading his code.

About the formation he received, I remember he was a math teacher and I guess he's been coding for, let's say, a little more than 15 years, ever since he was a teenager.
Probably read tutorials at some point but I guess he's been learning on his own.

Would He tell us the Truth?

[Awayfarer]

This thread seems kinda weird. Like talking about someone while they're in the same room.  

I don't know the first thing about programming. I'll just say I'm damn impressed, whatever the story is.

[ShunterAlhena]

quote:Originally posted by Awayfarer:
<STRONG>This thread seems kinda weird. Like talking about someone while they're in the same room.     </STRONG>

Well, I've been hoping that Toady might drop in and share some trivia about how DF looks from the inside. I'm not committing the heresy of wishing to look into the Source, mind you!!! Just that as an IT engineering student with some experience in programming I'm awed by Toady's work that - seemingly - lacks a rigid plan yet manages to be so well-working and easily expandable, and I thirst for any details he might care to share.
However because this has so low chances of happening I decided to ask the community what they think.  

[SirPenguin]

What's the language DF is written in, anyways?

But yeah, Toady is kind of like a Cheese Maker who is suddenly struck by a fey mood, claims a Computer, and begins to work on some mysterious coding.

Seriously. I mean, he himself has admitted he has taken very few classes on the subject, and is basically learning as he goes along. It's his dedication and ideas that keep the game flowing, as opposed to programming knowledge. It's honestly the biggest thing I admire about Toady...he's not just some programmer who had the idea for a game. He's a math major who had a vision with his brother, and despite his lack of strong programming background, he's making due, and has created a game that rivals that of multimillion dollar companies.

That's gotta count for something. In fact, when I donate, that's going to be pretty much the entire reason.

Edit: Also just wanted to say that I'm going to be a 3rd year Computer Science major, so I understand what Toady is going through when it comes to optimization or, in this case, lack thereof.

[ May 12, 2008: Message edited by: SirPenguin ]

[TheSpaceMan]

If I am not incorrect I think that DF was written in C then rewritten in C++.

Working alone or semialone on a projects have it's strengths since you will allways know all the code to some degree since you have written it. Once more people get on the project this becomes harder untill it becomes imposible to have a clear view of it all.

[Sindai]

Most of the hard parts of game programming are basically math problems anyway, so Toady is actually pretty well-positioned to deal with them. His knowledge of fractals, for example, is a big reason world terrain generation works so well.

Maybe the basic design and organization of the code is a mess (or maybe not), but as long as he's the only one maintaining it that's not a very big deal.

[ May 12, 2008: Message edited by: Sindai ]

[Lightning4]

quote:Originally posted by ShunterAlhena:
<STRONG>i.e. both cores of a Dualcore used, not just one</STRONG>

I've actually noticed something odd pertaining to this. My laptop, when running DF seems to behave as though it is fully utilizing both cores. I'm probably wrong about this, but that's what the CPU load is showing me. It's not background programs either, with my base programs running it gets like 5-10% on each core, but DF brings each core to around 60-80% or more.

[Angry Lawyer]

All I know is that Toady's coding skills are at least five times greater than my own.

-Angry Lawyer

[Armok]

Toady is a superhuman programming demigod in a fey mood.

[Neonivek]

Well... the most important aspect is not that Toady is talented... but that he is determined and focused...

The fact that he is STILL working on this is a miracle in it of itself when you compare it to other internet projects you see.

Edit Addition: This topic has kinda devolved into shameless complimenting of Toady... It is kinda funny

[ May 12, 2008: Message edited by: Neonivek ]

[Dasleah]

Isn't it a bit rich to criticise Toady's coding abilities when we have no idea what the code actually looks like? It's like criticising a winemaker without ever tasting the wine.

The game works, and it works well. Complaining because Toady doesn't throw around enough programming buzzwords (*ahem* multithreading) is a bit strange.

[Helmaroc]

I don't care.

As long as he makes DF, I'm happy.