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[Krr1ss]

@Toastercultist:
I'm most suspicious of Crystal, Tric, and NQT. I think Tric and NQT are mutually exclusive though, if one is scum the other is not.

I'm also suspicious of you and Jack, however it is not as much and I think your N1 claims here are probably the truth. I know that I am town and I think it makes sense you would want to hold onto an innocent result this early in the game so I don't blame you for keeping that to yourself.

Oh, I actually kept it to myself because I thought I would post it along with my reads to not take up space. I had prepared the draft for the claims this morning, and wanted to post it with reads this night.

Or you wanted to get thread awareness and see what claim fit the best? And then claiming to cop your partner is very safe move to pass the day for both. Well, I am just pointing out a possibility, not that it actually happened.

-snip-

Why did you assess TricMagic?

I assessed him because I didn't understand his hat. Unfortunately I didn't get any information about the hat or its name, so that was a wasted assess.

This makes almost 0 sense to me. Really? You didn't understand a self-explanatory hat? Tric had been the most open one about their hat the whole game, assessing him makes 0 sense to say the least. It's quite more likely you tried mugging someone. In fact, mugging gives a similar effect to assess while also actually giving you a tangible benefit in the form of power. Also safer since if you were mugged, at least you got a new one.

Unvote

I told people not to investigate me...

What are your thoughts on the game, Toastercultist? Who raises your suspicions?

My thoughts on the game are that most of it was very confusing because of all of the custom roles. Additionally, it's difficult to know if someone who committed a blunder or mistake did so because they were mafia or because it was an honest mistake.

Also, I think that I've learnt two things from it:

• Do not latch onto people
• Do not lurk

As for my suspicions on people, I've just finished skimming Magma's posts and I am going onto Kriss.

You focus a lot on nightplay instead of dayplay huh? I noticed it in your casing too that you did for magma and me. It's as if reads don't interest you nearly as much as our roles.

[Krr1ss]

Alright then, here are my incomplete reads:

Spoiler: Magma Mater and Krr1ss (click to show/hide)

Magma (slight Town lean):
Magma is quite mysterious, but the claims and suspicions made sound sincere.
Almost all of the claims that he makes are either immediately or later backed up by reasoning, and he tries to be consistent with stances on people.
Examples:
- Roleclaim -> justified by a good intention to ease the night phase, and justified again much later
- Vote for TCk -> originally had no reasons, but was quickly justified after.
- Jim -> justified by Jim not having solid reasons and not voting anyone

Kriss (Neutral):
I considered saying he was mafia lean simply because of the amount of posts on his profile. Kriss is also very mysterious despite these posts, as most of them are short and don't give away much at all. Nevertheless, here are some thoughts:
- Shadowy role: Kriss gives hints about his role, but these hints are quite ambiguous. We know that it is cooperative, people shouldn't expect much, it "requires immense brainpower," despite kriss later saying it was simple, sounded like a "broken role" to him, a hat win is near impossible with it, it shouldn't be destroyed.
- Early bandwagon on TricMagic, which had little justification but is probably just an honest mistake.

Funny thing to note, when I opened my profile, i saw almost 20 pages of posts which is tragic considering that I was groaning at seeing people I ISO having 3 hahahahhahahahahhaha.

Anyway, I want to point out something weird here.

- Early bandwagon on TricMagic, which had little justification but is probably just an honest mistake. This is what you said. How do you know that's a mistake? How do you know it's a honest mistake? For the record, I jumped onto the wagon purely because I wanted someone to be voted. No matter the alignment or game, I always push people with votes and probe and see what's going on. In fact, often, I am first to vote and/or change votes.

Also, you seemed quite focused on Magma matter. I remember during day1 your, a bit twisted, logic on voting Jack because of "aight magma, you are good guy" despite a suspicious post. Then, you completely tunneled on Jack ignoring Magma. Then now, you make a specific post about him and it feels as if you are trying to tell us how good of a guy Magma is with all that "Justified". The word itself feels scummy when talked about a person so much ngl.

Everyone else reading this, look at it carefully and see where I am coming from and tell me if you agree.

Also, this feels a bit tunnelly but there's really no other posts I can comment on so this is it.

[Krr1ss]

Imp's post on toast

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hey, Toaster buddy.  Do you think better with less or more pressure?

I already tried the less pressure route once.  I do believe in reward towny behavior, punish scummy behavior.

I'll try this unvote thing once.

I can kinda get why you would 'assess Tric'.

You get a free and a not-free action.

Assess is a free action.  If you lie about having used it but you (or a scumbuddy) read it, you know you need to know the name of a hat someone had N1 and the total number of hats they had N1.

That's easy, for probably everyone it's 1 hat or 0, and hey, we all know the name of Tric's hat.

If you're honest and clueless, you didn't even read assess so you don't know it literally says:

(Free, Night) Assess [target]: Do they have... hats? Learn how many Hats the target has at the end of this Night, as well as the name of a random Hat among those.

So... you literally don't know and don't check (but somehow know you can use it!) to find out only and exactly what you and everyone already know about Tric and only Tric; he for sure has 1 hat N1 and it's Bloodstained Sunglasses (if that's even a hat.  If it isn't, nice guess, and I'm sorry.  We'll see what Tric says)

Hey, that makes loads of sense, potentially at least, either way.

But all D1 you were totally focused on either Jack or Mater, mostly Jack.  Pretty heavily Jack.  Even said as your last D1 post:

Think what you want about me, but I'm going to be really stubborn on the EuchreJack and Magma Mater issue.

-snip
So, I figured some nebulous other, lesser players would vote me out because they wanted to win via HATLO rather than actually play forum mafia.

As a nebulous lesser player, I am not voting you because I want to win via HATLO, but because I want to vote out mafia in forum mafia.

Earlier you talked about the need to investigate... Hey.  These are your words...

Think what you want about me, but I'm going to be really stubborn on the EuchreJack and Magma Mater issue. It's one of the only actual pieces of evidence that we have on day 1, and the night game's complexity could be lessened if we got it over with and investigated Magma first thing instead of avoiding it till we have no choice.
As someone (I forgot who) said, this is a perfect excuse for the mafia to not get read, and the extra complexity with the bussing sounds like it was hastily added in to make it seem plausible.

So... you who apparently ignore Toony D1.  Now you're investigating Toony despite all the fuss you made about Jack and Mater D1?

You literally never mention Toony until you're back here apparently trying to save your own skin by making claims.

Now, hey.  If I could investigate and I was gonna, I might leave zero clue that I was gonna investigate my actual target.  I consider that pretty high level play.

If you're using high level play... you sure aren't showing it.

What the bleep is going on.

Absolute mindmeld

[Krr1ss]

I read through posts again, and wow Jim is being hated a lot.

I also concluded Kriss just likes to fight with everyone here. Makes me feel lonely...

Infact both Kriss and Toony talk to me mou. It's very nice of you two to townread me but also kinda uncanny...

And we are concluding that Toaster and Toony are town correct, or is anyone suspicious of their claims?

Well, I guess I shouldn't have waited to post my claims.
Toastercultist:

• Assess Tricmagic -> 1 Hat, Bloody Sunglasses
• Investigate ToonyMan -> Innocent

I feel like we can keep it in a pocket that those two can be mafia,
It's a weird play but certainly something mafia can perform, especially with the kinda good timing.


I can definitely see why Jim is suspicious,  however there was just one reply from them that stood out to me

Guys, what's so wrong with my reads... I literally made a small cases on toony based on his first few posts I didn't even scum read him back then and then I stopped because i've been outside for too long and wind got to me.

As for voting Jim (you), it's literally just a random vote within the trio. What's so bad in all that...

For the post you made about ToonyMan, I think it's coming from the perspective 'i will find evidence of Toonyman being scum in these posts', i.e., you've already decided on a conclusion and are trying to find evidence to reach it. I could probably generalize this to your suspicions about myself, ToonyMan, and Magma Mater.

You made another post (not going to dig it up) where you said you think Magma Mater's elimination was inevitable, even if all his reads pan out. This doesn't make a lot of sense to me since I'd think if a player's reads are all panning out then they're probably not scum, because otherwise they'd be bussing their teammates really freaking hard.

There's a handful of other statements like this that I may or may not have highlighted in my posts.

Your perspective and mine about what makes a player scum and how games will play out and how to prosecute suspects are significantly different and I have difficulty trying to see where you are coming from with some of your points. And I therefore have a difficult time gauging how sincere you are about the things you say and what you are attempting to accomplish. For the most part I'm not concerned but then you say weird things like I highlighted above (and in other posts) that make me doubt that your perspective is a town one.

I don't agree with it personally at all. Jim really isn't considering Kriss as a his own person here, feeling like they are pushing an ideal of like one perspective.

Jim

Agentt, I saw you playing town and I saw you playing scum. I know your anxious self and my personal read on you is that if you are scum your teammates must be very patient and kind trying to ease your anxiety almost all the time.

Or you are just town.

Also like the posts and reads so there's that.

[Krr1ss]

My early game policy is to not eliminate claimed cops. Leave it at least another night to see what happens.

I'm going to park my votes on Jim and Vermillion and go to bed. It's silly o'clock in the morning here, I'll have more to say when I'm awake.

I missed this but, buddy, how about elaborating? You keep voting randomly for almost no apparent reason almost all the time and I still can't get a read on your thoughts. Help me a bit here

[Krr1ss]

So while I still sus EuchreJack, it was not on the top of my mind, and investigating him, I thought, would stop me from changing my playstyle. If I read him, there are two possibilities:

• Innocent: People lose even more trust in me, meaning I won't be able to convince them about more developed suspicions.
• Mafia: Most people won't believe me anyways, similar to the fable about the boy who cried wolf.

So you don't read Jack anymore because... others wouldn't care? Shouldn't you care about your reads and make them despite others. Your job is to convince others. If nothing else, at the end of the game, you can point fingers and be in the right. Your entire reason on not reading Jack anymore is because:
1. Others will find you scummy (makes no sense almost. You are free to keep the read while making new ones)
2. No one will believe you? (Feels like scum with low confidence of convincing town but I think that I am pushing too much into the matter)

Still, your posts are less than likable to me rn.

[Krr1ss]

Gun to my head if there's three mafia it's Crystal, Jack, and Tric as the team. I think Magma was saying Crystal/Jack/Jim but I'm not seeing Jim as mafia here. I feel strongly there's a bad guy between Tric and NQT but I can't tell who. Jim reads both as town but that doesn't feel right to me.

I think Crystal being mafia is odd with the Sal kill though, unless they're actually the ones that killed Sal. Their redirect claim of Imp to Sal seems risky though because if anybody had targeted Imp we would realize their action was false. Crystal has already said that their action failed or something but...

It's shady, I find Crystal suspicious I think. NQT gives me the same off feeling. Interestingly I don't think Tric feels the same as the other two, maybe because blatantly saying they forgot to action is so obviously suspicious.

Toaster could be making these claims to save their skin for a day too I guess. NQT is correct that voting a cop claim at this point doesn't feel right though.

Okay, this is enough for me not to want voting you out today. Maybe even tomorrow. Almost absolute mindmeld with the exception of Tric

[Krr1ss]

Also damn, I literally filled one full page (I do 25posts page) by myself. Crazy.

[TricMagic]

Unvote

I told people not to investigate me...

What are your thoughts on the game, Toastercultist? Who raises your suspicions?

I get the feeling you didn't even bother to read that post Toony. The spoilers were Magma's posts. Shrunk down it was rather concise since I presented them as evidence into the court.

[TricMagic]

Well, I guess I shouldn't have waited to post my claims.
Toastercultist:

• Assess Tricmagic -> 1 Hat, Bloody Sunglasses
• Investigate ToonyMan -> Innocent

TricMagic, when you're back with us, you said some weird stuff earlier.

You're welcome to assess me and realize I don't have any hats. Heck you can steal the hat I have right now, it's completely out of shots. Which is why I've been using it.

That's like quantum hat-issue.  Assess says 0, but sure steal this hat (but assess says 0)?

Anyway, Toaster says you gotta hat.  Is Sunglasses a hat or no, and if not why assess you to realize you don't have hats?

Sunglasses are a hat. A 2-shot hat. So the result does reveal I didn't mug anyone last night if you believe something you put on your head qualifies as a hat. RPG style.

[TricMagic]

Well, I guess I shouldn't have waited to post my claims.
Toastercultist:

• Assess Tricmagic -> 1 Hat, Bloody Sunglasses
• Investigate ToonyMan -> Innocent

Inspecting the person responsible for saving you at the end of the day was certainly a choice.

Hmm.. Unvote
Question toaster, is this an alignment read or a killer read. Cause as noted in my own game they can differ. Killer investigation only triggers on people who have killed.

[TricMagic]

@Toastercult:
If you got a Mafia result on Jack I absolutely would believe it.

@Tric:
Are your sunglasses a hat? Do they count as a hat? What are they called? Bloodstained? Bloody?

@Imp:
It's true that Toaster's actions would be easy to fake here. I'm not sure if they're faking though. Cat was a doctor and a cop combined so we do seem to have powerful roles.

They are in fact the Bloody Sunglasses. As revealed whenever I fired them. They are also out of shots now, and that's a good thing.
Would have been better if I actually acted last night but it is how it is.

[notquitethere]

Kris

Onto the second thing. NQT targeted me for some reason. I refuse to believe that I was the most scummy person in the lobby in that moment. I refuse to believe that I was anyone's (maybe Sal's) top scum read and likely not even top3. Which makes me question, why target me? If you wanted a friendly target, go for Imp or Agentt. If you wanted to hunt scum, go for one of your scum reads, iirc it was Toaster at the time.

I'm not going to explain my whole role on D2, but I think it might instructive if you read the role from the last game I played in:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hello notquitethere! You chose Reversi, and you have rolled Town.
[...]
Place Disc (Active, Free)
_{You can't win a game without placing a few discs.}
Target any player. Mark them as a colour, alternating between White and Black, starting with White. If that player dies, the mark is flipped to the opposite colour. You may use this on Night 0.

Control Edges (Passive)
_{Pieces placed on the edge are difficult to take. And if you get one in the corner, watch out.}
If one player is marked as Black, you are immune to abilities that modify investigation results. If two players are marked as Black, you are also immune to redirections. If three players are marked as Black, you are also immune to kills. If four players are marked as Black, you are also immune to roleblocks.

Feint (Active)
_{The right play at the right time could tell you a lot about your opponent.}
Target another player. If one player is marked as White, you will learn the name(s) of that player's General Abilities. If two players are marked as White, you will also learn how many Personal Abilities they possess. If three players are marked as White, you will also learn whom they targeted this night. If four players are marked as White, you may additionally choose another player to redirect the actions of your target to that player.

In that game, I had a role which did something harmless when targeting a player (the place disc action), with the purpose being it could empower the useful part of my role. The mechanics are different but my current role has this same basic pattern. I don't think it's that uncommon. In fact, it sounds like your role also fits this pattern!

Unfortunately, this ability is pretty useless.
1. I can target someone to spread it only for that night and only by successful actions.
2. I can learn how many people have it.
3. I was begged by Fallacy not to let it reach Omega hahah (26th night iirc) as it's Alpha, Beta, etc..., Omega.

If it was helpful I would have just told you it was helpful. If it was harmful I would have said nothing! I didn't need to claim at all here, other than that as you'd also claimed to be jailed, I thought it might shed some light on the setup.

My first thought was that there could have been a chain of blocks, as Toony was disabled when targeting me. But as I was writing it out, I realised all three of our claims were quite different. Hence why I concluded that a lot of blockers in general seemed to be happening.

Only, it turns out you were actually lying about your role. Which, to be clear, I think is your perogative. But it does make your read of me on D1 pretty funny/hypocritical:

-Suggests town lying about roles. Feels a bit scummy.

@Toastercultist:
I'm most suspicious of Crystal, Tric, and NQT. I think Tric and NQT are mutually exclusive though, if one is scum the other is not.

I think that Tric is town. If you trust me, by that logic, NQT is scum and I am definitely willing to jump onto that wagon.

This is actually a classic logical fallacy. Toony is saying if I'm scum, Tric isn't and if Tric is scum then I'm not. We both can still be town. You saying that Tric being town makes me scum doesn't follow from what he said at all.

Your argument:
1: NOT ((Tric = scum) AND (NQT = scum))
2: NOT (Tric = scum)
C: (NQT = scum)

Or more abstractly:

1. Not (A & B)
2. Not A
C: Not B

Or much less abstractly:

1. I can't walk and take a train at the same time
2. I didn't walk
C: So I took the train?

Actually I took a bus and neither walked nor took the train.

[TricMagic]

Kay... Magma's off the list for now. Mostly cause this has popped up.
NQT/Kr1ss/Toastercultist.

Toaster, I would like more info on if you look at killers or not. Cause it sounds like you have the opposite ability as Verm.

[Krr1ss]

Kris

Onto the second thing. NQT targeted me for some reason. I refuse to believe that I was the most scummy person in the lobby in that moment. I refuse to believe that I was anyone's (maybe Sal's) top scum read and likely not even top3. Which makes me question, why target me? If you wanted a friendly target, go for Imp or Agentt. If you wanted to hunt scum, go for one of your scum reads, iirc it was Toaster at the time.

I'm not going to explain my whole role on D2, but I think it might instructive if you read the role from the last game I played in:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hello notquitethere! You chose Reversi, and you have rolled Town.
[...]
Place Disc (Active, Free)
_{You can't win a game without placing a few discs.}
Target any player. Mark them as a colour, alternating between White and Black, starting with White. If that player dies, the mark is flipped to the opposite colour. You may use this on Night 0.

Control Edges (Passive)
_{Pieces placed on the edge are difficult to take. And if you get one in the corner, watch out.}
If one player is marked as Black, you are immune to abilities that modify investigation results. If two players are marked as Black, you are also immune to redirections. If three players are marked as Black, you are also immune to kills. If four players are marked as Black, you are also immune to roleblocks.

Feint (Active)
_{The right play at the right time could tell you a lot about your opponent.}
Target another player. If one player is marked as White, you will learn the name(s) of that player's General Abilities. If two players are marked as White, you will also learn how many Personal Abilities they possess. If three players are marked as White, you will also learn whom they targeted this night. If four players are marked as White, you may additionally choose another player to redirect the actions of your target to that player.

In that game, I had a role which did something harmless when targeting a player (the place disc action), with the purpose being it could empower the useful part of my role. The mechanics are different but my current role has this same basic pattern. I don't think it's that uncommon. In fact, it sounds like your role also fits this pattern!

Unfortunately, this ability is pretty useless.
1. I can target someone to spread it only for that night and only by successful actions.
2. I can learn how many people have it.
3. I was begged by Fallacy not to let it reach Omega hahah (26th night iirc) as it's Alpha, Beta, etc..., Omega.

If it was helpful I would have just told you it was helpful. If it was harmful I would have said nothing! I didn't need to claim at all here, other than that as you'd also claimed to be jailed, I thought it might shed some light on the setup.

My first thought was that there could have been a chain of blocks, as Toony was disabled when targeting me. But as I was writing it out, I realised all three of our claims were quite different. Hence why I concluded that a lot of blockers in general seemed to be happening.

Only, it turns out you were actually lying about your role. Which, to be clear, I think is your perogative. But it does make your read of me on D1 pretty funny/hypocritical:

-Suggests town lying about roles. Feels a bit scummy.

@Toastercultist:
I'm most suspicious of Crystal, Tric, and NQT. I think Tric and NQT are mutually exclusive though, if one is scum the other is not.

I think that Tric is town. If you trust me, by that logic, NQT is scum and I am definitely willing to jump onto that wagon.

This is actually a classic logical fallacy. Toony is saying if I'm scum, Tric isn't and if Tric is scum then I'm not. We both can still be town. You saying that Tric being town makes me scum doesn't follow from what he said at all.

Your argument:
1: NOT ((Tric = scum) AND (NQT = scum))
2: NOT (Tric = scum)
C: (NQT = scum)

Or more abstractly:

1. Not (A & B)
2. Not A
C: Not B

Or much less abstractly:

1. I can't walk and take a train at the same time
2. I didn't walk
C: So I took the train?

Actually I took a bus and neither walked nor took the train.

Okay, that's new. Still didn't see such roles so this shed some light, thanks. I do still think that it's far more likely that your action was helpful/harmful with me leaning on harmful.

As for Toony logic, I understood that "mutually exclusive" meant that he was sure that one of the two is scum. I may have misinterpreted that and that he meant that both can't be scum but both can be town.