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[Imp]

I stopped NQT targeting Crystal or EP.

Why me and Elephant Parade? Why not stop NQT from targeting Euchrejack or Imp since those two were basically town after that flip?

I didn't want to stop anyone targeting Imp, because Imp has been hinting that it may or may not be dangerous for mafia to nightkill them, or at least is trying to confuse scum by saying that. I trust Imp to be doing the right thing there, so I've been leaving them alone.

I have a very strong townread on EP, and basically thought they were worth protecting whatever happened. This game, they've been widely townread, engaged, and systematic, so it was reasonable to think they'd draw the nightkill. It was also kind of free for me to do this with EP, but not with other players. I stopped NQT targeting you because EJ claimed to be building houses in order to make a Safe Zone with you at the centre. Obviously having you alive would help with that. Also, after a reread, I felt you'd almost never offer to target salvatore with the inspect-ish power as scum, and was quite confidently townreading you.

With 20/20 hindsight, yeah, it would have been better if I'd stopped NQT targeting EJ. But I thought they were less likely to be the nightkill, because they still looked a bit dubious after yesterday, and can be a scum asset in the endgame. I was considering blocking EJ instead, in fact.

unvote  In case you guys were worried that this was subtle anti-claim meaning I don't want this one dead.

if NQT and NJW are both maf.  This is the one being best protected.

I don't know what's going on.

[Imp]

But if CM is maf, I suppose we see her hammer, unless NQT is also maf and she doesn't want that one.

[NJW2000]

Imp: because EJ seemed to be done or nearly done building the houses, and because losing CM would mean we no longer knew how to get to the safe zone. It could even lead to the safe zone becoming inaccessible, I think.

[Imp]

Imp: because EJ seemed to be done or nearly done building the houses, and because losing CM would mean we no longer knew how to get to the safe zone. It could even lead to the safe zone becoming inaccessible, I think.

Cause nobody alive can probably move by moving, despite multiple flips showing people have that ability.  Though not all do, sure, maybe none alive have.

And if anyone targeted CM, we could then target them to get to the safe zone.

But... this is your thinking?

[notquitethere]

Elephant Parade, if, after you've had a good think you're genuinely serious about hammering me, let me know and I'll full claim. That might let you all see that my role is the best damn thing going for this town.

Also, as a side point, I've just realised that we should expect Imp to be shooting someone tonight, assuming a similar timeline to Juicebox and my own power growth:

you possess a locked one-shot killing ability. It is unlocked when the specified condition is met. When it unlocks, upgrade all of your abilities.

If she's been seeing herself as an angel of death, self-targeting to set up the conditions every night, then that might go some way to explaining her attitude this game.

If she does have a kill, great! One trouble is, she won't know whether NJW is good or evil until the end of the night. We could very well see the game end prematurely even if Crystal isn't scum with a double-kill.

No I don't, unfortunately. I wasn't able to use Ice Cream N3 -- it was already gone, and even if it wasn't, I had ceded it to Tric because I figured there was no convincing him to let me use it instead.

I see. I misunderstood how the task worked. I thought you had gained x3 shots of it.

[Imp]

Elephant Parade, if, after you've had a good think you're genuinely serious about hammering me, let me know and I'll full claim. That might let you all see that my role is the best damn thing going for this town.

Also, as a side point, I've just realised that we should expect Imp to be shooting someone tonight, assuming a similar timeline to Juicebox and my own power growth:

you possess a locked one-shot killing ability. It is unlocked when the specified condition is met. When it unlocks, upgrade all of your abilities.

If she's been seeing herself as an angel of death, self-targeting to set up the conditions every night, then that might go some way to explaining her attitude this game.

If she does have a kill, great! One trouble is, she won't know whether NJW is good or evil until the end of the night. We could very well see the game end prematurely even if Crystal isn't scum with a double-kill.

No I don't, unfortunately. I wasn't able to use Ice Cream N3 -- it was already gone, and even if it wasn't, I had ceded it to Tric because I figured there was no convincing him to let me use it instead.

I see. I misunderstood how the task worked. I thought you had gained x3 shots of it.

I wonder.

You're pretty focused on vote CM.

And you'd accept your death, apparently.

What if it's NJW?

[Elephant Parade]

Elephant Parade, if, after you've had a good think you're genuinely serious about hammering me, let me know and I'll full claim. That might let you all see that my role is the best damn thing going for this town.

Also, as a side point, I've just realised that we should expect Imp to be shooting someone tonight, assuming a similar timeline to Juicebox and my own power growth:

you possess a locked one-shot killing ability. It is unlocked when the specified condition is met. When it unlocks, upgrade all of your abilities.

If she's been seeing herself as an angel of death, self-targeting to set up the conditions every night, then that might go some way to explaining her attitude this game.

If she does have a kill, great! One trouble is, she won't know whether NJW is good or evil until the end of the night. We could very well see the game end prematurely even if Crystal isn't scum with a double-kill.

No I don't, unfortunately. I wasn't able to use Ice Cream N3 -- it was already gone, and even if it wasn't, I had ceded it to Tric because I figured there was no convincing him to let me use it instead.

I see. I misunderstood how the task worked. I thought you had gained x3 shots of it.

Noted. I really don't expect to change course, but I'm still thinking (and I don't think discussion has quite petered out yet, which is when I generally become interested in hammering); I'll probably get back to you later today. I want to present my case on that CM scumtell even if it's unlikely to change anyone's mind (including mine).

I had to successfully use Ice Cream that night to get it as a 3-shot.

If you were to do a certain thing today, even you flipping town and Imp shooting wrong wouldn't necessarily be a town loss tomorrow. I trust I don't have to say what it is.

[notquitethere]

It's too late, I didn't realise "select" meant that that was your action for the night, I just thought it was a choice you had to make. Hopefully what I've given you hasn't been taken, I did a search and couldn't see any indication it had, but it might not be what you want. But I thought you were sitting on three ice creams so anything I picked would be superfluous

[Elephant Parade]

It doesn't determine my action, it's just the condition I have to meet in order to get the thing. (Actually, rereading my role PM, I think I was mistaken—I don't think I have to successfully perform the Family action, just submit it, but that doesn't matter when the action in question is no longer available.) And that doesn't make any sense to me because you had an option right there that would've been potentially helpful regardless of my other night action options, as I alluded to above.

[notquitethere]

To be clear, I gave you something helpful, it just might not be the thing you were thinking of.
 
While I was writing up my claim, I realised that due to how my role works with marking certain players, we should probably flip NJW. That way I would gain a redirect. If the game doesn't end with NJW dying, I would be able to prevent Crystal from killing everyone and keep Imp and I alive to LYLO where she would see I'm town.

[NJW2000]

Imp: because EJ seemed to be done or nearly done building the houses, and because losing CM would mean we no longer knew how to get to the safe zone. It could even lead to the safe zone becoming inaccessible, I think.

Cause nobody alive can probably move by moving, despite multiple flips showing people have that ability.  Though not all do, sure, maybe none alive have.

And if anyone targeted CM, we could then target them to get to the safe zone.

But... this is your thinking?

I understand that the safe zone probably doesn’t become inaccessible if scum kill CM, but it would almost definitely be harder to get to. I know people who targeted CM on the same night could end up there, but it’s not a certainty.

I did wonder why EJ was so firm that we target CM rather than himself to get to it, but he was clear on that point. He had claimed Monopoly, so I suspected it might be due to him hopping between locations in a weird way each turn.


So NQT has changed their mind about the mechanical importance of killing CM. Remembering they get a redirect for eliminating me after their vote on CM didn’t get traction does seem a bit convenient.

[notquitethere]

So NQT has changed their mind about the mechanical importance of killing CM. Remembering they get a redirect for eliminating me after their vote on CM didn’t get traction does seem a bit convenient.

If you knew how convoluted my role is, you'd understand. I haven't changed my mind about the mechanical importance of killing Crystal, I've just realised I can redirect both her kills onto EP and leave Imp and I alive for a Crystal/Imp/NQT standoff where Imp sees we're on the same side.

If we elim Crystal and she's town and you're scum, then I can only track the killer, which isn't as useful given no one likes me, but hopefully Imp can kill the last mafia.

This is really hard to puzzle out, hence why I'm wavering.


Elephant Parade, are you 100% Crystal is town? Or do you not see the threat of the double kill?

[notquitethere]

Just quickly off the cuff, points in favour of it being NJW:

- He's been off-wagon in every lynch
- He never conversed with Salvatore in the duelist chat
- He's never outright taken the lead in the way other players have

Points not in favour of it being NJW:

- He's made generally sound arguments
- 2/3 scum in the duelist chat is harsh (though maybe less so if they can add town to it)
- He's tried to solve various aspects
- He's been engaged and clear


I want to take a look back at EP. I'm pretty certain he's town, but everyone should get the Eye of Sauron on them today.


Being all mechanics-brained about this isn't going to convince any of you— I can't act unilaterally here. So give me time to reassess the cases. Don't hammer in the next 24 hours please. I'll unvote while I'm considering things.

[Imp]

I did wonder why EJ was so firm that we target CM rather than himself to get to it, but he was clear on that point. He had claimed Monopoly, so I suspected it might be due to him hopping between locations in a weird way each turn.

Perhaps he thought he was in a location not where she was, and anyone targeting him ends up where he was end of night, not where she was.

Also a tempting place for maf to end up, since apparently being where she was would be a potential problem - who knows because maf probably know better.

You didn't think about this?

[Imp]

- 2/3 scum in the duelist chat is harsh (though maybe less so if they can add town to it)

What if... genre duelist is from start of game only maf.

Hilarious and useless.

It could be.  There's '99 genres'.  An entire genre could be devoted to the maf/containing some of them, leaving plenty other genre for all players.

A weakness... if any townie detects that genre, after a maf has flipped with it.

OMG maf team revealed.  Except for Juice who's not in it.

And they can add someone to it.

Bonus hidden secret mech: No townie can inspect for genre.  So it's less a weakness than they fear it is.  But they don't know that (Nor do I; I spec what seems possible, even plausible).

And maf team have a genre inspect.  So it's reasonable to think town does.  Reasonable fear.  There's a number of 'fake doors' in this game.

Finally, I'll state that this isn't a bastard game. I'm not going to lie. However, be very cautious about your assumptions. I can get pretty creative with role design.

CM's weird.  But maf all game?  ... huh well.... I mean -maybe- but?

So, 3 maf in this duelist channel - a channel they don't need or want.  And that damning genre, just waiting for a town to genre inspect any of them... after the first maf from that channel flips.

They should announce they're conf town, but...

but...  And all the risks of that.  Might as well be 1 maf in two slots if they go that far.

So.  They make the channel look 'believable'.  They do a poor job of it.  NQT tries the hardest.  None are really trying to see it from town eyes, plus who the flip would think it even could be three maf in there.

They drag someone town into it expecting Sal to likely die soon and still concerned about the various whatevers/think it's more useful to use than not/they know some more tricks they can use.