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[notquitethere]

Okay am off to bed in a moment. I voted Imp to assist EP with piling on a bit of pressure, privately intending to unvote once she had made her claim, but what EP has claimed is directly equivalent to a cop inspection. Yes we can think up ways it might be false or incomplete, but the face value read is that Imp is scum, and by extension, so is Euchrejack.

We can might be able to afford one more mislynch, but Juice's additional powers show scum may be able to perform extra kills under the right conditions. So we should operate under the assumption that we must get it right today.

I intend to explore the other possibilities during the rest of the day. I hope that if this is a town-Imp she provides a more coherent picture of the scum team. I note that her earlier NJW suspicions have completely disappeared, when once she claimed to have a secret mechanical reason to suspect him.

[Imp]

what EP has claimed is directly equivalent to a cop inspection. Yes we can think up ways it might be false or incomplete, but the face value read is that Imp is scum, and by extension, so is Euchrejack.

I don't think this is town thinking.  I don't want to rush to elim here, but watch close and careful, this isn't good for town.

EP could have full and true and right results.  That does not mean I am maf.

I claim I didn't cause the genre gain that happened to me.  That's true of anything else, regardless of what else happened.

NQT wants to throw us into elim Imp, elim EJ.

By then maf's probably won.

Maybe NQT is being very different from any game I've had with him.  But I think it's also he's maf.  I think this is maf thinking.

[notquitethere]

How is it mafia thinking? If you're making a meta read then substantiate it. I can tell you, everytime I'm town I disappoint some player or other who hoped for better things from me.

1. We know mafia have a special way to interfere with each genre
2. You gain the duel genre
3. No one else targeted you other than you and EP
Therefore: without some other special interference (watch immunity, delay etc.) you lied about not giving yourself the duelist genre, and are mafia

(Of course, you could be lying as town for some reason, but we know genre interference is a mafia ability so that's still the best surface read.)

I.e. on the face of it, this is exactly equivalent to an inspect. Essentially we have one inspect saying you're town from Euchrejack, and one inspect saying you're scum from Elephant Parade. They both can't be right.

[Imp]

How is it mafia thinking? If you're making a meta read then substantiate it. I can tell you, everytime I'm town I disappoint some player or other who hoped for better things from me.

1. We know mafia have a special way to interfere with each genre
2. You gain the duel genre
3. No one else targeted you other than you and EP
Therefore: without some other special interference (watch immunity, delay etc.) you lied about not giving yourself the duelist genre, and are mafia

(Of course, you could be lying as town for some reason, but we know genre interference is a mafia ability so that's still the best surface read.)

I.e. on the face of it, this is exactly equivalent to an inspect. Essentially we have one inspect saying you're town from Euchrejack, and one inspect saying you're scum from Elephant Parade. They both can't be right.

EP's inspect does not say I'm scum.

If I say "I targeted self last night"  that just gives info to maf.  If I say what else I did, that just gives info to maf.

If you think the only thing I could have done, if I targeted myself, is gain a genre, you're... wow.  Though I notice

Juice, can you walk me through why 'self targeting' is sus to you?  Are we thinking a mafkill that ... :"Target self and other target to steal their item and kill them" or... what do you imagine is sus about a self-target?  Also, consider the flip we all can see - game opening post.  Looks reasonably enough like my own flip for me to consider it 'this is probably like stuff in play' - just in case your role's like really different, it could be for all I know - but I think Mater's town flip is reasonably a flip.  Should that role reasonably self target N1 to help town?  If not - why not?

This was a problem before.  A known maf really wanted CM dead after CM claimed a self target.

Oh, let's help maf here.

@CM I don't know if I believe that your role isn't betrayal. From what I've seen so far it does seem pretty betrayal coded.

CM targeting themselves is also a bit suspicious to me, with that plus their focus on the auction, it really seems like they're playing for themselves instead of playing to help town.

CM are you more or less suspicious of anyone now that everyone's claimed their night results?

Therefore: without some other special interference (watch immunity, delay etc.) you lied about not giving yourself the duelist genre, and are mafia

Absolutely wrong.  bleep-poor thinking.  Scummy as bleep.

Let's flip NQT team.  Or consider it really seriously.  Before or after I flip.

[Elephant Parade]

Imp, imagine a game where Magma Mater dies N1 and I track Meph to him the same night. D2, I don't know if Meph performed the kill or not, but I do know I tracked him to the recipient of a presumed mafia action, meaning I have reason to believe he might have performed the action, meaning I need to press him for his claim.

This is a similar* situation. You received a presumed mafia action (being added to the duelist genre), and were tracked (er, watched) to yourself; in other words, you were tracked to the recipient of a presumed mafia action. Ergo, it is plausible that you performed the action, and I would like to hear your claim, to help me figure out whether you did or not.

_{* It is dissimilar in that (1) the action at issue was not a kill, and (2) unlike with a track, I have reason to believe nobody else acted on you (discounting my Watch action itself).}

[Imp]

Imp, imagine a game where Magma Mater dies N1 and I track Meph to him the same night. D2, I don't know if Meph performed the kill or not, but I do know I tracked him to the recipient of a presumed mafia action, meaning I have reason to believe he might have performed the action, meaning I need to press him for his claim.

This is a similar* situation. You received a presumed mafia action (being added to the duelist genre), and were tracked (er, watched) to yourself; in other words, you were tracked to the recipient of a presumed mafia action. Ergo, it is plausible that you performed the action, and I would like to hear your claim, to help me figure out whether you did or not.

_{* It is dissimilar in that (1) the action at issue was not a kill, and (2) unlike with a track, I have reason to believe nobody else acted on you (discounting my Watch action itself).}

If I self targeted, I could also have been forced to self target to apply the maf-given genre gain.
If I self targeted, you could have been forced to give the maf-given genre gain to whomever you target.

If I didn't self target, then the maf-given genre gain forces self targeting.

You have pressed me for my claim.  I have amply responded as deeply as I will.  I think you're probably town being a massive stooge for the maf and that maf are likely very interested in self targeters.  But I do encourage you to focus elsewhere if you're capable.  I understand, maybe your brain can't.  It should.  Unless you are maf of course, in which case you're in a pretty decent position.

[notquitethere]

Let me explain this again, Imp, as you're not getting it. Obviously, absent any other information, you could be doing any number of things with a self target. But the fact is someone performed an action with you as the target to give you the duelist genre. The most straightforward explanation is that that person was you and that you claiming otherwise is because you are mafia. Other possibilities include a scum player who can't be watched, Elephant Parade is scum and making up the results, the action was delayed etc. Just like other explanations for Euchrejack's inspection on you is that you're a godfather, he's scum alongside you, or EJ was redirected. As information, both give about equal reason to suspect you and mostly come down to how likely we think interference is and how much we trust Elephant Parade vs Euchrejack.

You're an intelligent person, I know that you are capable of seeing this incredibly obvious point.

[notquitethere]

Anyone else, am I being unreasonable here?

[Elephant Parade]

I think you're underestimating the likelihood of the apparent duelist-izer cheat being a nonaction/nontargeting action given that it represents the scum, you know, cheating. Otherwise, no.

[notquitethere]

I think you're underestimating the likelihood of the apparent duelist-izer cheat being a nonaction/nontargeting action given that it represents the scum, you know, cheating. Otherwise, no.

To be clear, I should admit that that's a distinct possibility. I'm not saying Imp is dead cert scum. I'm just saying that this result is about as convincing as Euchrejack's inspection. Either way, I don't want to end today with it being the only reason to do anything.

Euchrejack, did you disable a bunch of players? Why??

[EuchreJack]

Anyone else, am I being unreasonable here?

Yeah, you're expecting too much from Imp.  Imp's a black hole: Always sucking up information, never giving back.
And that is NAI.

I'm still gonna trust in my Green check on Imp.

[EuchreJack]

I think you're underestimating the likelihood of the apparent duelist-izer cheat being a nonaction/nontargeting action given that it represents the scum, you know, cheating. Otherwise, no.

To be clear, I should admit that that's a distinct possibility. I'm not saying Imp is dead cert scum. I'm just saying that this result is about as convincing as Euchrejack's inspection. Either way, I don't want to end today with it being the only reason to do anything.

Euchrejack, did you disable a bunch of players? Why??

To be absolutely clear: I have limited knowledge on how my ability actually works, because it targets player's last location in the night. Since I know very little about the locations themselves, I have no idea where my powers actually targeted.

But yes, I used my ability to lock down juicebox.  And hey, juicebox flipped scum!  So...go me right!?

My basic thinking was that I would be able to lock down the mafia from nightkilling, so disabling everyone else's powers seemed like a fair tradeoff in exchange for stopping mafia kills.  And, I think there may be an area where it is impossible to Nightkill.

And to be absolutely clear, my ability should still remain if I am lynched or killed.

[EuchreJack]

NQT is starting to look like scum.

[EuchreJack]

Although if it's juice + Imp + EJ I don't know why juice would have roleblocked Tric from challenging (without claiming it!) when his likely targets were NJW and me.

Perhaps you should also ask: Why would I ever kill Tric? The answer: I wouldn't.

...well, stupid Elephant is town Elephant, sigh.

[EuchreJack]

I think the optimum strategy would be to lynch someone in the duelist chat. The fact that NQT seems to think lynching me is a good strategy makes them look like scum.

I'm worried the scum team might be NQT, NJW2000, and Juicebox.  I suspect the remaining town would be unable to counteract that, due to a lack of experience.