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[Imp]

I acted on EuchreJack. My role involves guessing certain things about where a player went and what he did there, and then I find out if I was right or wrong. It's not really something I would have chosen to play a game with, but then, I didn't.

I don't have as much information as I would like, but my impression is that I don't think Jack's claimed action is possible. For one thing, I wasn't blocked, which I logically should have been. For another, he claims he acted on CrystalizedMire and juicebox, but I know one of these can't be true because I guessed it (pretty much randomly) and my guess was wrong.

I think those of you who are town-rating EuchreJack are probably wrong.

Why did you withhold the information? What is the purpose of withholding this information
Euchrejack: Can you confirm that what Salvatore said was true?
Anyways, I placed a worker on Euchrejack last night which means that tonight I can place another worker on someone else and figure out if their alignments match or not.

Interesting; in a two-alignment game this isn't an ability scum should have, and I've never seen CM fakeclaim anything nearly this elaborate. So this is definitely +town. There are enough possible explanations (coaching, scum receiving free safeclaims with full ability details) for my scumread to remain, though.

yeah.  I think CrystalizedMire is doing rather a lot that I haven't seen her do as town or anti-town before.  The timing is part of the most 'uhh, what?' to me.

Anyone have ideas who she might listen to well enough to follow and cooperate with spinning a web this fancy, presuming it isn't true?

If it's true I just gotta wonder why she goes obvious about it.

But of the CM's I've met, this one reminds me the most of Supernormal town-ally CrystalizedMire.

[EuchreJack]

I acted on EuchreJack. My role involves guessing certain things about where a player went and what he did there, and then I find out if I was right or wrong. It's not really something I would have chosen to play a game with, but then, I didn't.

I don't have as much information as I would like, but my impression is that I don't think Jack's claimed action is possible. For one thing, I wasn't blocked, which I logically should have been. For another, he claims he acted on CrystalizedMire and juicebox, but I know one of these can't be true because I guessed it (pretty much randomly) and my guess was wrong.

I think those of you who are town-rating EuchreJack are probably wrong.

Why did you withhold the information? What is the purpose of withholding this information
Euchrejack: Can you confirm that what Salvatore said was true?
Anyways, I placed a worker on Euchrejack last night which means that tonight I can place another worker on someone else and figure out if their alignments match or not.

I was clearly just blocked last night _{and I was too stupid to realize it before posting a lot.}
So...it's possible that Salvatore Monday could be telling the truth and their results of "Jack did not act upon Crystalizedmire and/or juicebox" could be accurate.

I might be giving too much benefit of the doubt, but I think it's perfectly normal based upon my chaotic and confusing post at the beginning of Day 3 that Salvatore Monday could be scumreading me.

But....what I find more interesting is that I was clearly roleblocked, and nobody is claiming credit for that. Which means it was scum. Which could be Salvatore Monday, if they're afraid of a tracker.

[Salvatore Monday]

Everyone's somewhere.

You use a qualifying ability and you go to your target's location at the start of the night.

What's the evidence that Tricmagic started the night where you are?

What's the evidence where CM started the night where you are, and who is with CM/who all should have been blocked/what other inconsistencies do you see?

What else should be brought up about this?

I do literally want to see your answers instead of discuss myself.

As for Tric, it's implicit, isn't it? If Tric was blocked for being in the same location as EuchreJack, and I was in the same location as EuchreJack, then I should also have been blocked for being in the same location as EuchreJack (and Tric was also necessarily in the same location as me).

I don't know what CM would have to do with it.

Yep, CM is a typo.  And sorry, this is so hard to track (for me at least) even without any typos.  But why do you think you're in EJ's location at a point when you would be roleblocked for it?

You last said you acted (N1) on NQT. That would put you at the location NQT was at the start of N1, unless something weirder happens, like some player who can moves you or whatever.  And NQT also moved, to his target's start of N1 position, presuming he met the requirements to move.  So you can act on NQT but not be in the same location as NQT by the end of the night/start of the next night.

That's what Global Campaign means, right?  As I read the text.

N2 you acted on EJ, from NQT's start of N1 position, wherever that is.  So you move to EJ's start of N2 location, presuming everything's as expected, in addition to your action(s).

About Tric and EJ.  D2 Tric tells us that he targeted EJ N1.  So, Tric should be wherever Jack was start of N1.  Jack can have moved on though.

D2 Jack tells us he targeted Imp and Hyper/ Salvatore Monday... he changes that.  Imp and Juicebox.  Sheriff Office becomes a personal action, but it's free.  Apparently he used a genre action on me too, so he's either where he started N1 still or he's moved to Juice, and he asks.

Only Five Locations!?  Ew

Who shares a location with Juicebox?

And we were told:

Magma Mater: If someone used a multi-target nonfree Personal Ability on targets spread over multiple locations, where would they move?

Each player has a location. When a player uses a non-free Personal Ability to visit another player, they travel to where that player was at the start of the night. At the end of each night, including Night 0, you learn each player's location. On Night 0, send me a ranked list of every player in the game, along with your preferred location for them. I will compile the preferences of each player with this ability to determine the starting location of each player. Players closer to the top of your ranked list are more likely to be given your preferred location. The locations are North America, South America, Africa, Eurasia, and Oceania.

Such an ability would say, "target x and choose y,z,α...". The player they chose as the target would be where they move.

So... Jack started N2 either in his previous N1 location (if he didn't use any qualifying abilities) or in Juice's N1 location, I think. Juice said he was RB N1, so he is theoretically in his original location wherever that was (and presuming someone who can move people didn't move him).

Sal, are you presuming a RB affecting Jack's location would affect you because you targeted Jack N2?  You're affected based on your N1 location if I understand right.  And that could overlap but maybe not.

What do you think?

Well, I don't know. Jack seemed to think that it would block a nightkill targeted on him or Tric, which would imply that it would block actions moving to his location, and I went with that because he knows his ability better than I do - but it's totally possible he could have misread it like that too.
If that were the case, then being blocked or not would depend on where NQT was at the start of last night, I suppose.

But you're now claiming he acted on you when he said he acted on CM in my quote, didn't he? Did I miss another story change?

[Imp]

Well, I don't know. Jack seemed to think that it would block a nightkill targeted on him or Tric, which would imply that it would block actions moving to his location, and I went with that because he knows his ability better than I do - but it's totally possible he could have misread it like that too.
If that were the case, then being blocked or not would depend on where NQT was at the start of last night, I suppose.

But you're now claiming he acted on you when he said he acted on CM in my quote, didn't he? Did I miss another story change?

So... this is what I get of the Jack story.  Short summary:  N1 Targets Imp and Juice.  N2 roleblocked himself.  Here's all the listed details.

Yeah, so.  This is what I think I'm tracking?

I dunno where Jack starts.  D1 stated plans:

I will probably use Jalepeno Poppers tonight in conjunction with Sheriff Office.

@Elephant: I can use some sort of action on Imp tonight, perhaps you could vote juicebox?

D2 claims:

Got results, Imp is Town

Free sheriff office, no move because of the Global.

Will you say how many actions you performed last night, then?

Yes, I performed three actions. Two targeted Imp, one targeted Hyper/ Salvatore Monday.

If any is personal and not free, Global kicked in to move Jack to where his target was at the start of N2, ignoring any new actions taken N2 (unless someone has some weird ability that specifically moves them at sunset?  Someone can move during the day, or can move someone else during the day?)

Then corrects the error:

Then something funny happened, because I tracked you (via a Family Genre action) to Imp and juicebox. I was holding this back until you claimed because I thought it was mildly odd you had only targeted two players.

Sorry, recalling sent PMs on the forum is HARD on my phone.
I actually targeted Imp and juicebox. I didn't target Hyper/Salvatore Monday. My apologies for the confusion.

This probably relates to actions or locations or something.

Is NJW in the building?

No, juicebox is. 

Next day planning, we're still D2:

@Elephant: I think my best move is to Punch. I will leave you to decide your own actions.

First direct mention of properties:

@Fallacy and @Verm: I am actually going to need you both to share what you know about properties.

My ability directly effects the property at which my target ended the night.  So, unless we know more about properties, people are going to start noticing their night actions not working, and even I won't be able to explain it.

Makes sense... Juice in the building.

Yes, locations.  I think they're called properties in my role.

Uh-huh.  I believe this.

Only Five Locations!?  Ew

Who shares a location with Juicebox?

Now we move to D3:

I used Punch on Crystalizedmire.

I also used Develop Property on juicebox.

@Tric: I used Develop Property on juicebox twice.  When I used Develop Property on the same location twice, it roleblocks everyone but me at that location.
Bad news, it might be my fault.
Good news, I think this means we can't be night killed.

Also: I got no night action results.  Like...I was told nothing.

Punch is genre, I would expect Jack to be in Juice's location or where Jack started the game, or where someone used a move ability to put Jack.

Then we get this weirdness:

My pros and cons for lynching Juicebox are...

Pro-Lynch: Juicebox is fucking useless
Anti-Lynch: Juicebox is fucking useless

I suspect that Juicebox is now unable to do any night action, so I would rather lynch mafia that can kill over a possibly useless townie.

So... how long is Juice unable to do any night action?  Could Juice be immune to it?  What's going on?  No idea.  Should the people where Juice was N1 be affected by this happening N2?  Should the roleblock actually happen N3?  Dunno, whatever Jack says and we get reports of.

Last night I stopped Verm and Juicebox targeting TricMagic.

NJW2000 is scum.

They were clear to identify that they acted upon Verm, who is now dead.  And if they indeed targeted Juicebox, they would have been roleblocked like Tric.
NJW2000 killed Verm.

Confusing.  I can't see the exact wording of the ability.  If it's anyone targetting trick, or anyone ending the night where the ability is used?  So... it's interesting to me what people read into this.

Me, I'm confused.

Here. Jack says 'whoops, I was blocked'

I'm still thinking it's NJW2000, but I was clearly blocked last night:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Haha oh no. I forgot I had first intended to look into Imp, but then I thought if EJ really did inspect her as town, then she would be a high candidate for the mafiakill, so I actually inspected Crystal. That Imp didn't call me out on the claim straight away makes me think that she is also Eurogame. And maybe that's the right number of personal abilities, or maybe she was just confused. But let's pretend that was deliberate.

At the start of Day 1, Euchrejack said that all Family genre players should claim. I was curious to see if a person I suspected had withheld that information. Assuming I wasn't redirected, she had not.

This isn't the first game where I've acted rashly on a misrecollection of a PM. It's like that Robot/Pirate/Catgirl/Ninja debacle all over.

So to be absolutely clear, I'm claiming that Crystal is a Eurogamer with five personal abilities. Who knows how many she used last night.

Imp: Do you have any way of transferring resources?

So to be absolutely clear, I'm claiming that Crystal is a Eurogamer with five personal abilities. Who knows how many she used last night.

I used 1 last night

NQT identified Crystal as a Eurogamer, and Crystal appears to confirm it.  If I had not been blocked, NQT would have gotten an inspect on ME, because I used Punch on Crystal, which switches the targets of abilities used on Crystal and myself.

...it could also be a mod error where someone tried to block Crystal, and the mod ruled that I would be blocked and all other actions would revert to their original targets.

Which means that Jack didn't block anyone.  Someone blocked Jack?

Here he thinks he and tric were blocked:

Both Tric and myself seem to have reported the same result, so we were probably both blocked and the Mod's just a bastard(ish)

Here Jack and I commiserate and wail in harmonized confusion:

I'm so confused.
...
I dunno, I'ma stay confused a bit and listen more.  Whaaaaaaaaaa.

Unfortunately, I seem to be the one causing the confusion and being confused.  Now I know how you feel.
So, I think I'll follow your lead and do the same.

He's glad Juice confirms Juice wasn't rb:

I will be posting my reads soon, but first I want to report that I was not roleblocked tonight. My action definitely did go through. I targeted CM with a genre inspect as well and got a eurogame result.

@juicebox: Thank you, that clears some things up.  Please post more.

So...

According to EuchreJack, everyone at his location should have been blocked, and he claims that this explains why TricMagic was blocked. But I was at the same location and not blocked.

What do you think is going on, Sal?

[juicebox]

@NQT Oops! Sorry about that.

I'm townreading NQT at the moment. They've been trying to lead the town, trying to interact with and get content out of everybody and doing their best to solve the game.

[juicebox]

@Elephant the most recent thing that Tric's done of note is to attempt to use the bugles ability, which is an incredibly risky move to pull seeing as we had very little confirmed information at the time. This is a move that I could see Tric making as town or scum though.

[juicebox]

My Reads are as follows:

Town:
NJW: I have no idea what Imp sees here. NJW is my strongest townread at this point. They've constantly been pushing cases and trying to solve the game

Elephant Parade: They've calmed down a bit since D1. They weren't been tunneling on Imp like D1 but instead entertained a couple of different cases D2

Not Sure:

Tric: I'm never too sure about Tric, their behavior is so erratic that I'm never sure if I'm reading them correctly. Maybe I'll get a feel for them eventually but at the moment I don't know

Salvatore Monday: Hasn't posted much. A decent observation here or there but not enough for me to townread them

Imp: Because of my Jack read below, I don't know if I can trust the town inspect on Imp anymore. Imp hasn't done anything outright scummy yet though, so I'm nullreading them for now.

Scum:
Jack: I'm starting to lean scum on Jack now. I definitely wasn't blocked last night. Also they initially said that they targeted Salvatore Monday N1, when they had actually targeted me. And while they did explain it away as mistyping I think they may be lying about their actions in an attempt to confuse us.

CM: They've done nothing to change my initial read on them. They've barely been more active than me and hasn't stated any suspicions on anyone who isn't me.

@NQT I wouldn't trade resources with them. I don't trust them enough to give them any resources.

@Imp I wanted to gather information on CM since I thought that they were suspicious

Sweet!

Walk me from here:

Okay, so reads.

Let's do the easiest first.

I'm reading Imp as town here. They're playing well within their town meta in my opinion. They are contributing quite a lot to the discussion and they have also been pretty forthcoming with information

To your current read.

That another player says they inspect me can't change my alignment.

Town or scum can say someone else is town or scum.  Heck, last game when I was maf I said that town Verm was town.

How'd I go from your top read to 'sus because of Jack but null' and "Imp hasn't done anything outright scummy yet though, so I'm nullreading them for now"?

I mean... I lost a lot of ground between being your top town to hit null despite 'hasn't done anything outright scummy yet though'.

What's up, doc?

So my logic here is that if Jack is lying about his claims, there's no reason to trust his town inspect on you. This combined with the fact that you've been quite defensive this game and that you've been tunneling NJW the entire game makes me a bit more suspicious of you, but not enough for me to peg you as scum.

[Elephant Parade]

@Elephant the most recent thing that Tric's done of note is to attempt to use the bugles ability, which is an incredibly risky move to pull seeing as we had very little confirmed information at the time. This is a move that I could see Tric making as town or scum though.

So your opinion on Tric hasn't really changed over the course of the game?

[Salvatore Monday]

Want to add: I misunderstood you, Imp; I thought you said Jack had claimed targeting you and juicebox n2, since he did claim targeting juicebox n2.

As for "what happened" with Jack's claim, well, to be frank, I think he's just making things up to cause confusion. It's a good tactic.

[NJW2000]

To be honest, I'm not entirely caught up on whatever's going on with EJ and the block - the mechanical stuff is a bit beyond me. Brief post because not a huge amount of time right now.

Re: CM's claims... I'd be slightly wary of inspects that happen this late in the game. If we miselim today and mafia get a kill, we're down to seven players. If there's 3 mafia, that's LYLO. So claiming an inspect could be an endgame. Nonetheless, this is far outside what I'd consider their scumrange, and would require a fair bit of coaching by a strong and aggressive player.

SalvatoreMonday:

As for "what happened" with Jack's claim, well, to be frank, I think he's just making things up to cause confusion. It's a good tactic.

Given we've been told by the GM mafia will "feel like they own the night" in a high-power game, and that there's at the very least another scum player potentially claiming falsely, mechanical confusion isn't exactly unexpected. That being the case, why have you gone straight for the explanation that involves the person at the centre of it fakeclaiming?


CrystrallizedMire: apologies if I've missed an account of this, but why didn't you use this inspect-ish ability earlier in the game?


Juicebox: do you have any proof that the below actually happened?

I will be posting my reads soon, but first I want to report that I was not roleblocked tonight. My action definitely did go through. I targeted CM with a genre inspect as well and got a eurogame result.

Do you get any info about eurogame that could be confirmed by CM/NQT? Otherwise... you see how this looks, right?

[TricMagic]

I acted on EuchreJack. My role involves guessing certain things about where a player went and what he did there, and then I find out if I was right or wrong. It's not really something I would have chosen to play a game with, but then, I didn't.

I don't have as much information as I would like, but my impression is that I don't think Jack's claimed action is possible. For one thing, I wasn't blocked, which I logically should have been. For another, he claims he acted on CrystalizedMire and juicebox, but I know one of these can't be true because I guessed it (pretty much randomly) and my guess was wrong.

I think those of you who are town-rating EuchreJack are probably wrong.

Why did you withhold the information? What is the purpose of withholding this information
Euchrejack: Can you confirm that what Salvatore said was true?
Anyways, I placed a worker on Euchrejack last night which means that tonight I can place another worker on someone else and figure out if their alignments match or not.

I was clearly just blocked last night _{and I was too stupid to realize it before posting a lot.}
So...it's possible that Salvatore Monday could be telling the truth and their results of "Jack did not act upon Crystalizedmire and/or juicebox" could be accurate.

I might be giving too much benefit of the doubt, but I think it's perfectly normal based upon my chaotic and confusing post at the beginning of Day 3 that Salvatore Monday could be scumreading me.

But....what I find more interesting is that I was clearly roleblocked, and nobody is claiming credit for that. Which means it was scum. Which could be Salvatore Monday, if they're afraid of a tracker.

Jack, if you got blocked last night and I got blocked last night how in the world do you reckon that happened? Easier to think that this is Monday trying to confuse things.

[TricMagic]

So both Monday and Juice claim their action went through yesterday. Yet I was clearly blocked, and Jack would also have to be blocked.

You two see the issue here right? Really starting to think you two are the mafia.

[EuchreJack]

I'm largely in agreement with Tric.

I was roleblocked by Mafia, since nobody is taking credit for it.

[notquitethere]

Anyways, I placed a worker on Euchrejack last night which means that tonight I can place another worker on someone else and figure out if their alignments match or not.

I think this is a more-or-less compelling reason to keep Crystal and Euchrejack alive for today.

@NQT:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Imp's too annoying for scum to ever kill. Just reread my chat from last game. I explained it on great detail.

Hahaha. You're probably right. Did you ever play with Tiruin? Similar dynamic.


Unofficial Votecount
juicebox (3) - CrystalizedMire, -Imp, notquitethere, TricMagic, Elephant Parade
TricMagic (1) - Imp
NJW2000 (1) - Euchrejack
Not Voting (3) - Salvatore Monday, NJW2000, juicebox
Hammer: 5

Salvatore, NJW, juicebox, you three going to get around to voting? You'll notice on D2 that Fallacy was very late to get active in pushing a case and that contributed to everyone suspecting him. If you're town, make a vote.

Imp, do you think a Tricmagic lynch is happening today?

[notquitethere]

Block Chain

I'm trying to puzzle out what the hell is going on. I can at least give a bit of info:

If that were the case, then being blocked or not would depend on where NQT was at the start of last night, I suppose.

I was in Oceania at the end of N1, beginning of N2. I confirmed this with Fallacy in the thread:

Third letter of it is: 'e'.

Correct.

Magma got back very rapidly and I can confirm, the location I was PM'd wasn't a mistake. How about you tell me what location you think that is and I can tell you whether it's right. I've hidden the name of it in one of my posts, so I can prove I'm not lying later.

I got there because I was targeted Fallacy, and so Fallacy must have been in Oceania at the start of N1.

If it helps, Oceania was clearly not where Euchrejack was at the start of N1:

The people who could've targeted EJ last night (assuming no Location manipulation) aaaare:
CM
EP
Hyper/Salvadore
NQT

I can confirm one part of this. I targeted EJ. If EJ had died last night, it might still have helped town a little because of my power.

The issue is, according to my now updated spreadsheet, you didn't do that.

(The confusion came in that I used a free action on EJ which didn't count.)