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[Elephant Parade]

I'm going to be entirely honest, my main towntell for Imp so far is willingness to type a lot.
They get very passionate as town, as it shows up as walls of text, which I'm seeing a lot of here, and didn't see nearly as much of, looking back in retrospective of MVM.
I don't have enough of anything else to be willing to put it up as official reasoning.

I see where you're coming from, but MVM4 was an extraordinarily quiet game (22 pages!) and that might be the reason for the disparity. If you want to see scum!Imp post walls of text, check out the (year-plus-old) Armed Forces Basic:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Imp, were my efforts inadequate last game?  I mainly suspected hector for his defensiveness after my questioning, though opted to vote Crystal instead due to what I perceived as a distinct lack of participation.  My thoughts were that, despite some casual messing around, I dedicated a moderate amount of posts to figuring out which one of us was the baddie.  To directly answer your question, yes.  As to how -- well, you'll just have to find out!

sof, as you pointed out near the end of D1 last game, you were doing better than CrystalizedMire.  Both you and CrystalizedMire did what you did as town.

Yeah, I wanted more from you, I explained what I thought of your efforts in full detail before the lynch.

Wanted more from CrystalizedMire too, evaluated that player fully before their lynch.

I'm still watching what everyone's doing, but I am going to try and question more and assume less - or at least lock in assumptions later.  And watch my doubts more, and not be as fast to let them go.  Hec was high on my scum list, and then I just decided to go for other clues.

I wonder if town might have won Birbs if I'd asked more about what I thought was scummy, and encouraged and invited the scummy-looking folks to try harder.

I don't want to lynch scummy, I want to lynch (or shoot) scum.

That said, really looking forward to your scum hunting efforts this game, gonna do my best to see and feel them, understand them, and use that, along with everything else to try to lynch scum D1.  My previous method failed, but it might not always fail, but I really want to ask more and think more.

That said - I'm open to Tric's explanation about why a skip (is that the same as a nolynch vote?  Or different mechanics?) might be the best answer for Tric's wincon.  What are you thinking and doing, Tric?  Can you help me understand better?

That said, Hec was defensive both about my notice of subtle scumminess, and your reactions to him, and just subtly scummy.  I'd love to be back in that game talking to you and thinking, questioning everyone more instead of building case on your death from the first hour of D1.

Reminder, 3 votes to hammer.

Expect your roles at most 1 hour in advance.

Claiming to not know your role (or actually not knowing it) can be a strategy of sorts because it guarantees you're a day 1 null read no matter what you say, but alas...

Yeah, when I said 'flavor' of Max, I meant more attitude.  Wild insane claims, reasonable town play, or what.  Any answer from Max is an answer from Max.  We have to scumhunt that dude, somehow, I hope he helps this game.  I actually missed him D2 of Birbs, something I never thought I'd feel.  This is Max so I fear weird-looking play no matter the role.  I didn't like how he played the pre-restart of Catfia, and he was town then.

"Why did you shoot the townie person?" is a question the dead can't answer.

Why do you think we'll know who shoots who in the night?  Someone dead from shots could have eaten 2, or 3, or 4 shots - and anyone claiming to shoot someone still alive - anyone else who actually shot the still alive person can be sure the one who claimed to shoot them lied.

Points gun at Sofanthiel

Why vote for sof, are you OMGUSing, Tric?  I am trying and trying to read something of scumhunting or why vote sof in your post, and I'm missing it.  Can you help me see and understand, please?  I am not going to vote you in a game with someone not even spoken yet, so little time, and so early in the day, with 3 to hammer, but wow, I really, really need help to understand how you are playing like town, please.

With 5 players, it only takes 2 deaths for the game to end before day 2. (And will definitely end before day 3) Skipping the day has the benefit of having a chance of day 3, small as it might actually be. In such a short game, skipping is also a valid tactic when you want maximum chaos.

So, let's say we nolynch D1.  That leaves 5 going into N1.  Scum get a kill and a shot.  All 4 town are alive and get a shot.  We will have at minimum 0 deaths at night, presuming scum decides not to night kill, and everyone at most shoots someone nobody else shot.  Presuming scum nightkills, and we do know:

Mafia will have a standard mafia kill (kill one player each night), and can use it in addition to their 1 shot rifle.

We will have 1 definite town death, and who knows if we have other town deaths, or manage to shoot the scum - if we know who to shoot, we know who to lynch.  We can discuss, reason, and plan to lynch, and what pressure on scum if we're not talking about lynching D1?

Each of us who isn't the scum is looking at a 25% chance to lynch scum D1, plus if we can actually pick out the scum by D1 behavior, better than 25%.

Night, we have a definite nightkill, unless scum wants to prolong.  And we maybe have other kills, a 25% chance each town player does shoot the the scum, 75% chance they shoot another townie, presuming the town players don't choose to hold their shots (personally, I don't think anyone is likely to hold their shot or the scum their NK.  But I'm open to ideas why if people think people would.)

If we don't lynch D1, I think we are likely to get those 2 deaths N2.  But that would leave 3 alive D2 - so am I right that you're thinking 'if we lynch D1 then it only takes 2 N1 deaths to end the game before D2' - or are you thinking something else?

What do you think the scum would do, Tric, if we don't lynch D1?  N1 and scum kills someone, probably the towniest or the one who suspects the scum the most, or the best speaker or thinker even if they're not also the towniest.  Then everyone gets a shot, if they shoot.  How does this help your wincon, Tric?  How does town turn the chaos of N1 without a D1 lynch into a win?

Secretdorf, explain your reads please?

So far I feel Tric and Sofanthiel are more likely town although it's still too early to lock them as town.

Why for each?

Imp has actually written far more than anybody else but those posts are, I feel, null on the whole as some of it's about the past game

I was answering sof's question about the other game - throw that out if you please.  What about the rest of what I said?

So, most suspicious to me atm is Max. Hopefully I'll be hear more from him before day end.

I'd like to know what is suspicious to you about Max.

I don't know how long ago you last played, I'm recently back after around a decade's pause myself.  But I do want to know what you are thinking.  It's very low effort to say 'townie/scummie' but without reasons.  The only reason you gave so far for any read is 'null for imp because imp talked about another game'.

sof:

You seem to be concerning eager to lynch Tric just 10 posts in.  I, personally, don't see any glaring issues with his argument; reddening a name is simply the fastest way to have something explained (a little pressure has never hurt anybody!)

I'm concerning eager to find scum.  We have 'all day' but not many days or hours in any day, and I'd like to get what we can before this one ends.

I'm trying to remember that I was part of mislynching you from just a few posts into the game last game, and not laser in on Tric, who doesn't seem to be scumhunting and hit that trigger in me that I'm trying to disarm and remember to watch everyone and watch for subtle scumreads.  I want us all working to find scum.

Statistics so far based on what I can track:

Little more than 1/3 of D1 has passed.  I see this as our vote count and voting statistics:

- Imp (0)-
- TricMagic (1)- sof
- Maximum Spin (0)-
- sofanthiel (1)- Tric
- Secretdorf (1)- Max
- No Lynch (0)-


Warning: 3 is hammer

Not voting: Imp, Sec

Around 15 hours remaining

Vote switches:
Tric switched 'Skip' to sof

Have never voted:  Imp, Sec

Post count:

Imp 5
Tric 4
Max 4
sof 2
Sec 1

Reads so far:

Tric:  Recommendation to skip the day, threat to shoot whoever disagrees.  Talks about discussing why someone shot townie folk on D2.  OMGUS vote on sof, no reasons for vote given, defends idea that lynch is bad for today.  Tells me I'm misunderstanding again, asks Jack to clarify.  I don't see any scumhunting.  I'm concerned about not lynching, that's a town weapon.  I get that it can have a place not to be used, I'm not at all sure its place not to be used is here.

Max:  Claims to not know role, also claims didn't get a message from Jack; RVS Sec 'to know what powers the mafia have'; corrects my typo.  Second post, "I considered some largely pointless analysis for some reason." claims not to have read thread, either before last post or before this one (typo correction makes that untrue, so this is a Max in a mood to be the Max I'm used to, ehh).  Tells me more directly the 'plan' is an analysis, not a plan.  Wondering if Max is doing doctor stuff again, without doctor.  Answers my questions to Jack, notes has played in two of this style before.  I find Max hard to read.  Hoping to see Max do stuff I can understand is useful to town at some point.

sof:  Playfully challenges Tric's plan with a 'you have to get through me' and votes Tric;  Asks me to discuss his play last game, where I found him deeply scummy and explained so last game - he flipped town though; states he will scumhunt this game; theorizes on Max's possible strategies in not claiming to read role message yet.  Notes I am eager to lynch Tric, states he doesn't see 'glaring issues' with Tric's argument, mentions voting adds pressure and that he wants to see Tric's answer to my question and that Tric voting goes against Tric's stated plan.  I find sof hard to read.  Really want more posts to read.

sec:  Discusses his past gameplay style, notes hasn't played in a while.  Supports a nolynch for today but not a skip, wants scumhunting done.  Answers Max and asks what he thinks about Tric's plan and if sees a better way.   Asks Tric if Tric didn't actually read the OP.  States reads without reasons, town for Sof and Tric, null me, suspicious Max.  Not much for me to read here.  I'm concerned about the lack of reasons for reads, only reason stated is why I'm null for talking about another game 'so much'.  Saying why you have no lean and not saying why you have leans seems scummy to me.

Ranked, scummiest to towniest so far:

Tric, not scumhunting, omgus, scum lean.
Sec, reads need reasons, scumhunting please.  slight scum lean.
Max, much posting about game mechanics, not even a plan, just 'analysis'.  How does this help?  Word vomit, reminds me of doctor ploy my first game with.  But Max is hard to read.  Slight scum lean.
Sof, exploring ideas and reaching out to other players.  Weak town lean based on how he's played as town other games with me.

Hey, Tric.

I'm really confused by what you're saying, and I really, really want you to explain your understanding and thinking to me.

Where you say this:

Also, 1 townie and 1 mafia dead is GREAT Imp. Why are you implyng otherwise?

About 1 townie and 1 mafia dead is GREAT, I agree.  Any town win is GREAT.  Where have I implied otherwise?  To my understanding, I'm definitely considering what everyone is saying and pointing out problems I see where I see them.  Plans that I don't think will lead to a town win are a problem.  Plans that we as a group think are less likely to lead to a town win are fine to discuss as we consider everything we can.

But I really wanna focus here, what exactly did I say that made you say "Why are you implyng otherwise?" about "1 townie and 1 mafia dead is GREAT"?

I never meant that, never thought I said that.  It might be really helpful for us to understand and both explain any thinking that might lead to confusion - and I am confused and concerned that you have that understanding about what I am saying, because I'm not saying it.

OP says there is 1 mafia, so why do you imply another?

Again, I'm completely mystified.  I think there is one mafia.  I think I've only said statements that mean there is one mafia.

I really want you to walk us through what you read and what you thought that made you think I was implying this too.

When I look at what you quoted from me:

1

I am not going to vote you in a game with someone not even spoken yet, so little time, and so early in the day, with 3 to hammer, but wow, I really, really need help to understand how you are playing like town, please.

2

Sof, in the off chance our scum isn't Tric, do you have any plans or ideas what to do while we wait for Tric's answer from Jack?

1 is me thinking, "We have hammers and sof already voted Tric.  I won't put the second vote because 3 is hammer and we need to talk."  I'm also worried about what the shoot dynamics might look like if a town threw the third vote for any reason, if Tric flips town the hammerer might not be the scum but might get shot twice by the other two townies thinking that was scum, leaving the scum to kill a third town, and we need to discuss, not dive headfirst into shoot-shenanigans.

1 is also me saying, "Tric, you look seriously like scum to me.  Please explain what you are doing."

I note you haven't done that yet.  And I am finding you increasingly confusing and you are misreading me further and in new ways and directions.  That looks really scummy to me, and does not look like town to me.  So I am again asking you to please show me scumhunting, which maybe you are doing, but with 'facts' and interpretations that I need help to connect to reality, and I still want you to explain your thinking.

2 is me encouraging sof to scumhunt.  He reacted to you and asked me about his play last game.  I really want more from him.  He's voting you, and otherwise - waiting is what I read.  I think waiting helps scum more than town, and we have very short days so delay means stuff doesn't get said.  I need to see more so I don't vote the wrong person, and late shoot the wrong person.

Tric, I need you to explain your thinking, even though it was wrong, because that helps me see if it's confused town or scumploy.  If you can't or won't explain, I'll still do my best to find scum but you're not helping me by can't/won't unless you are scum.

In reality:

I'd be glad of scum dead.  (I think we only get here by lynch D1)

I'd be glad of scum and 1 town dead. (I think we get here by one of two possible paths: a) mislynch D1, no shooting deaths at all N1 (would mean scum chose not to double tap for whatever reason) and then a lynch D2 [I think this is unlikely to happen and succeed for a win] or b) nolynch D1, town double tapping scum at night and managing not to double tap any town, scum double tapping a town [I think this is also unlikely to happen and succeed for a win.  If we know who to shoot N1 we know who to lynch D1])

I'd be glad of scum and 2 town dead. (I think we get here by one of two possible paths: a) Mislynch D1, town plan of who to shoot N1 if D1 is a mislynch, and town is right -  Probably a triple tap of scum.  Scum double taps whomever they please.  b) mislynch D1, one townie killed N1 but town held their shots for a discussion about who to lynch D2 and is right D2.)

Those are the three possible win conditions I can imagine and I'd take any of them gladly.  How to make it happen is where I'm at.  There's other weirder paths that involve repeat nolynch and presume the scum kills at night ... or doesn't, and we eventually lynch scum or shoot - I don't see those long plans happening, but if we plan them out I'm all scumhunting ears.

And about that 'more than one scum' confusion - I don't understand or see where or how I ever implied I thought there was more than 1 scum.

[notquitethere]

  I'm Imp and got the mind I got, and I already know 2/12 roles plus all the claims made so far.

There's only 11 players so you must be counting Magma's role, in which case we all know 2/12 roles, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. It is true that you make note of claims and try to put things together and not all players do that.

The genres each appear to have their own mechanics that are shared with other players of the same genre. Are the locations a genre thing?

[Elephant Parade]

[snip; read explanations have been snipped]

Verm
Tric
CrystalizedMire

NQT, FoU, Hyper, Juicebox, Jack
NJW and EP

To me this read slate feels like a repeat of MVM4 (where I didn't play but quickly pegged you as scum -- ask FoU!) where you systematically cleared out townies who were actively playing the game, with the single exception of Max, and thereby dominated the conversation:

[snip; read explanations have been snipped]
Pro-town leans:
Verm
Jack
Nulls:
Max
Tric
Anti-town leans:
CrystalizedMire

NQT
Starver
NJW

It isn't impossible for it to be sincere or even largely correct this time, of course. I just don't buy it.

Re: Smithy: My issue is that someone needs to take it or people can use it to dodge the lynch, and that whoever takes it can't be lynched today, which is annoying. The closer we get to having a lynch slate the less annoying it becomes (because someone not on the lynch slate can take it). If I'm right that CrystalizedMire isn't scumread by anyone, and she's willing to give up her vote, then she would be a good option to take it.

[Imp]

Have I not been pushing a case this entire time?

This is fair, you have an edge on almost every other player in the game in that you're actually using your vote. If you want an Imp lynch, convince two other players who still have a vote that she's the one that needs to go.

And giving up my vote 26 hours before the deadline seems like a bad idea to me, especially when I could just as easily (if not as certainly) do it 26 minutes before the deadline.

This is you not thinking like a team player. If we want to get someone to have the sherrif's office power, then trying to arrange that at the last moment seems like a very risky plan.

That's reasonable. However: to me, executing her today is less important than generating a solid base of content that can be used to read everyone, so I don't want to focus too much on Imp, who has already received far more attention, from me and in general, than anyone else in the game. (Doubly so because I would be perfectly OK lynching FoU over Imp, along with the lurkers if they don't get posting in time for me to form a read.) For now, I have left my vote and made my argument; I'll push or revisit it as required.

I see where you're coming from, but giving up my vote now would reduce town's voteshare and rhetorical power for the rest of the day, which to me eclipses the risk of nobody getting the good powers today if I leave it too late/don't buy at all. Perhaps a few hours in advance would be more reasonable?

NQT, this is also my answer to your direct questions to me.

Whatever the irony, I kinda am similar in thought about why not snap up the smithy or any other.  I would like to have my vote to use D1 as a vote.  I would slightly prefer not to have any of the auction items.  If I take one... I maybe weakly want dorm (because of Stranger Things.  What the heck is up with that dorm and the Tach abilities???) or more strongly Sheriff.  I more care that someone I'm not very sus of takes Sheriff, I most prefer to remain a voter.

About EP's deep focus on me... yeah.  Even after saying stuff like that, he's fast to counter Verm's comment about my post lengths and then paint my reads the color he prefers.

Speaking of which... EP... why and how....

[snip; read explanations have been snipped]
Pro-town leans:
Verm
Jack
Nulls:
Max
Tric
Anti-town leans:
CrystalizedMire

NQT
Starver
NJW

It isn't impossible for it to be sincere or even largely correct this time, of course. I just don't buy it.

I get it that I'm scum on Earth to you.

But this other-game where I was maf... you snip out... my read placement of my partner.  How can that even happen?

[snip; read explanations have been snipped]
Pro-town leans:
Verm
Jack
Hyper
Nulls:
Max
Tric
Anti-town leans:
CrystalizedMire

NQT
Starver
NJW

If I'm maf and if you think I'm maf, isn't my partner also extremely important and concerning and worth considering?

... why not?  I don't think you think I'm maf.  I don't think you're honestly and sincerely doing what you'd do with the 'evidence' you present if you did think I was maf.  Which makes me more concerned about you.  Granted it is weird that you, if maf, do single focus on me so much.  Then again... when I'm town, recently maf has tended to suffer.

I don't mind you chewing on me; I have the privilege of seeing my role before you do.  I flip town.  Better dig elsewhere too.

I'm going to be entirely honest, my main towntell for Imp so far is willingness to type a lot.
They get very passionate as town, as it shows up as walls of text, which I'm seeing a lot of here, and didn't see nearly as much of, looking back in retrospective of MVM.
I don't have enough of anything else to be willing to put it up as official reasoning.

I see where you're coming from, but MVM4 was an extraordinarily quiet game (22 pages!) and that might be the reason for the disparity. If you want to see scum!Imp post walls of text, check out the (year-plus-old) Armed Forces Basic:

Hehe, yes, compare my posting in a 12-page game with only 5 players as being... other than 'extraordinarily quiet' as compared to a 22 page game with 10 players...

Do note though.  I was working 45 hours a week during the 22-page game and adapting to some brand new shocking life stress and needed to figure out a ton of irl stuff.  Now I'm not working and prepping for the figured-out irl stuff and just handling know-this-adapted-to-that no-longer-shocking life stress.

I said before, what my role is (and how much I like it) and what's going on IRL profoundly affect how I play, way more than alignment.

Is fine to compare.... I wonder at the honesty and focus EP is showing.  We'll see!

EP, I flip town.  Hope you're working on what to do after that... think you are and I think you might not be town yourself.  Interesting focus for a townie, but I am much more worried about NJW and tracking everyone to seriously try to headbutt an Elephant Parade.

Hope we're getting useful info for solving, townies.  Dark Nights Ahead may be likely.  Scum are probably well-equipped to handle the night despite the pretty and interesting and protective-looking doo-dads we day-dwellers may have.

  I'm Imp and got the mind I got, and I already know 2/12 roles plus all the claims made so far.

There's only 11 players so you must be counting Magma's role, in which case we all know 2/12 roles, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. It is true that you make note of claims and try to put things together and not all players do that.

The genres each appear to have their own mechanics that are shared with other players of the same genre. Are the locations a genre thing?

I'm reminding and inviting.

As far as I know, locations are not a genre thing - well, I mean what Verm stated about

Alright!

General abilities seem very strong.

Nothing to do with Family, I'm Global Campaign.
I think Imp is the same, but I'm not certain.
All of my actions have to do with Locations.

The location list is really funny. For related reasons, we shouldn't lynch Tric today.

I am not interested in taking anything from the auction.

Locations are not my genre thing, they could be someone else's.

I'm more trying to help everyone have the info they need to make the right choices, maybe without adding too much to what might be harmful choices, and my knowledge there is as vague as the locations list may be long - I don't know.

If I'm right that CrystalizedMire isn't scumread by anyone, and she's willing to give up her vote, then she would be a good option to take it.

I'm okay with this.  Crystal was willing to take the immunity to protective ability, so I presume she might be fine with taking Smithy instead.  If the auction is part of horrible maf plans and not part of precious town stuff... a whole bunch of stuff's gonna be borked either way.  There is the chance Crystal has something like... auction items work reverse on Crystal - but Crystal didn't just take the bad-looking Butchery, so that's probably not a concern either.

There's something weird about Tachyon (from Mater's flip) and Dormitory (from auction); they both... do nothing in a consuming of resources way.  Dorm's even worse than Tach; Tach at least gives its consumed slot back.  Dorm appears to eat the vote and get off the list but that's it.  Thing is I don't have any mech telling me why this stuff is special, but it jingles and jangles at my mind like... the BYOS2 game's 'get the hat, go to the gym, do what you can and you just might live!' of my D2/N2 where... random events, other players' choices, and unexpected changes that nobody (well, mod?  bows thankfully to NQT) set up made me res from my infection.

None of that directly applies here but I suspect that there's more to Tachyon and dorm than meets the eye and a tiny bit of me thinks having the dorm might work out - but I don't know how or to whose benefit and I'm guessing at the pattern we are shown.  So I don't really want the dorm.  And I would like to keep my vote to use D1 and I am quite interested in the Sheriff's office which clearly has use.  But we'll see who does what moving forward.

[notquitethere]

It's now just under 24 hours until EOD.

FallacyOfUrist, CrystalizedMire, Hyper, NJW2000, juicebox — you can't all be scum, but chances are ~2 scum players are among you as mafia are usually the most passive voters.

This is the current vote spread:

Unofficial Vote Count - Day One

Imp (1) - Elephant Parade
NJW2000 (1) - Imp
Hyper (1) - Euchrejack
juicebox (1) - VermillionSkies

Not Voting (5) - FallacyOfUrist, CrystalizedMire, Hyper, NJW2000, juicebox

With 9 votes in play, 5 are required to lynch or 5 to no-lynch.

What do we know about a vote spread like this? Oh yeah, it never catches scum. Scum have to be all be asleep for this to do anything to hurt them. We need wagons people! I need each of you five players to use your vote to do one of following today:

1. Push for the elimination of a player you have sincere reason to want to eliminate

OR

2. Join the auction so that we can get the inspect from the Sheriff's Office and make D2 a lot spicier. This will help give town a bit more control over the night game even if scum get hold of the power. Think about it.

If any of you fail to use your vote, I'll personally come around your house and beat you over the head with a keyboard be disappointed AND suspicious.

[Elephant Parade]

@Imp

Re: snipping out your partner: that was unintentional and a pretty big oopsie! If you click through to the posts, you'll see that I was doing a lot of deleting to get rid of everything but the order. I nearly deleted some other names too. I don't see how either the mistake or Hyper's position in the list damages my point, which is that scumminess on your most recent read list this game is inversely correlated with activity and you did the same thing last game as scum, to great effect.

I'm focused on you because you're one of my top two scumreads and continuing to do things I find suspicious.

I don't really understand what you're saying re: game page counts. 22 pages is extraordinarily quiet for a modern 10-player game that went to D3. 15 pages is quite reasonable for a 5-player game that ended N1. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to propose that the reason you were more active in the latter than the former was that everyone was more active in the latter, even if I was wrong.

Repeatedly saying you're town is entirely NAI and will do nothing to convince me.

[Elephant Parade]

NQT: You aren't pushing any wagons either. Who would you vote if you could?

[Hyper]

note: this is for only messages before my first long one. i will make an updated on right now, just posting what i had in draft.
now for my thoughts, and not an activity check post
as i said, auction is most likely a recurring thing. once we’ve chosen our lynch, we can test out sherif on them, assuming they are amiable to the notion of being that guinea pig.

Elephant Parade (EP?) ive not seen you before, i have very little experience here. how would you describe your playstyle falling under? using ‘vibes’ to form general suspicions about players, or deducting them and what they say throughout the game? a different way altogether? based on what i’ve read in your messages this game, i can say you at least partially fall under both, albeit general suspicions taking priority.

NQT do you play the same in every game? how often and to which degree do you differ your playstyle? you havent really said much so i cant give any opinion, but im one to talk… hope you get better soon.

Jack why claim family genre? is it that important right away - as in, so you desperately need coordinating within your genre? what about other genres?
also, who doesn’t want smithy at this stage though, ha.
i do agree that it probably isn’t very worth it d1.

NJW i agree with a large majority on the general topic of the game itself you’ve said, especially coordinating. if mafia own the night, giving actions, or attempting to circumvent their actions gives - as FOU said - a roadmap for scum. additionally, i have no clue if your personal reads are correct, so i’ll question: how often do you think you read correctly? are you confident in either leading, or giving suggestions?

Verm i have no questions about you, just a statement that you seem very laid back here, which is different from how you played mostly vanilla 4, my only experience (at all) with you.

CM upfront with role info, and confident in plays. very little to go off of though - once again, who am i to say, hopefully i will be after tomorrow. my first concrete d1 read of town.

FoU an off topic but somewhat related question: i see you’re very active when i look at  your posts. how is that? is it a lot to handle or have you settled in just fine?
on topic: you seem to be able to read people already. why is that?

Tric what confidence! seems very fast and loose, leaning scum, but not enough content to actually say or imply anything yet. i can’t believe it, but i have light aggro on you d1 again. i cant really describe it, but i’ll leave you alone this game for now because you seem trustworthy. hopefully (ha).
why did you take darkroom? do you not care about your vote and wanted to get the ball rolling, or is it related to your role?

juicebox you have sent but a single message, so i’m willing to put my vote on you.

Imp there is already so much content to read here, is this normal - last game, was it mitigated? the auction is a very powerful tool. how often will we be able to use it though? is it a d/n1 thing? if the auction is as powerful as complete protection in lieu of a d1 vote (when we can settle on someone then take auction), why wouldn’t we touch the auction. i’m not connected to the auction also. your reads seem reasonable but same as last, don’t make much immediate sense to me. very in depth talking with elephant. send me the cliff notes? (ha).

side-note: is auction even the right way to describe it? more like a tiered marketplace. or sequential buy-in.

[Elephant Parade]

Elephant Parade (EP?) ive not seen you before, i have very little experience here. how would you describe your playstyle falling under? using ‘vibes’ to form general suspicions about players, or deducting them and what they say throughout the game? a different way altogether? based on what i’ve read in your messages this game, i can say you at least partially fall under both, albeit general suspicions taking priority.

I would say I lean into vibes but I don't see vibing-vs.-deduction as a dichotomy or even a spectrum. They're techniques more than playstyles.

Hyper, VermillionSkies: As borderline lurkers, I don't think you should be parking your votes on another lurker. I'm not saying you shouldn't vote to execute them when the time comes, but right you need to start conversations with people and voting someone who's lurked the entire game is a terrible way to do that.

VermillionSkies, you in particular haven't been seeking out engagement with people, which is scummy even if you're new. You have to do more than answer questions, remark on things, and vote hardlurkers:

Alright!

General abilities seem very strong.

Nothing to do with Family, I'm Global Campaign.
I think Imp is the same, but I'm not certain.
All of my actions have to do with Locations.

The location list is really funny. For related reasons, we shouldn't lynch Tric today.

I am not interested in taking anything from the auction.

Okay, so!
I don't have any mechanical information on Tric's alignment, but they are in a spot that's very convenient for my nightgame if they're left alive.
Said nightgame is directly helpful to the town.

Imp continues to haunt my mafia games like some sort of phantom. Please stop correctly reading me D1, it's getting uncanny.

EP, I'm not entirely against the idea, it just feels a little too vulnerable to hijacking for me to be comfortable with it.

Speaking of Tric, huh? What are you doing?

I enjoy EJ's early information claim this game.

NJW seems kind of null to me, actually.

Also, two things:
1. The Auction only takes the vote for the day, not for the rest of the game.
2. If we're really going for the auction, I want the hospital.

EP: Imp this game is... honestly, NAI for me.
They're willing to throw out reads like that regardless of what faction they're in, from what I've seen, and walls of texts aren't uncommon either.
That said, I think they're playing more like CYOM or CYOS2 Imp than MVM Imp this game. Mild townlean, maybe?

I'd like a little more than what we have from Juicebox. Same with Hyper, but I like what they've put out more than what Juice has.
Fair warning, if the Hospital opens up I'm grabbing it. It's too valuable to not take.

EP feels townlean to me. At least, enough so that I wouldn't have too many grievances with them taking the Smithy.

I'm going to be entirely honest, my main towntell for Imp so far is willingness to type a lot.
They get very passionate as town, as it shows up as walls of text, which I'm seeing a lot of here, and didn't see nearly as much of, looking back in retrospective of MVM.
I don't have enough of anything else to be willing to put it up as official reasoning.

Also, what changed your mind on the auction?

[VermilionSkies]

About the Auction: I wasn't willing to open Pandora's Box. Once the Darkroom was taken, though, and especially now that the Butchery has been as well, I'm acknowledging that if we are going to try for the Sheriff's Office, I want the Hospital on the way down.
I'm not interested in any of the rest of it, though.

About Locations: Locations are not abilities attached to a role, but a 'state' you can be in. There are five Locations, to my knowledge. I should have been able to decide the starting Locations of everyone, but either there is another person who was voting on it, or the list was always going to be somewhat randomized.

EP - That's fair.
Fallacy, you said you didn't trust CM or the auction, earlier. Has that changed, with new information that's come to light? Do you think you're likely to grab anything from the auction.

[Hyper]

i will strike through irrelevant or already answered info.

Don't take Butchery or someone else will have to take Smithy to prevent last-minute shenanigans, and I don't think anyone is universally townread enough to justly do that

If someone takes smithy and we have reason to question their alignment, we can always vote them later, right?

If all the auction items are taken off, then the quicker it is for me to kill an anti-town.

do you have a kill ability? or were you talking about lynching?
it seems cm has said their kill happens n5

Imp:
i dont really conceive of a way to reach even near post limit per day. it seems like a really high number just for convenience.
yessss, yessssss, my hoard of possstsss will become the biggest of allllll..
somewhat stressed, but not mentally, so all good. actively attempting to wade through the mess that is the thousand cuts of everyone’s differing and constantly variable opinions on people d1. ahem, not taking about anyone who posts paragraphs at a time on one topic. i’m fine with you taking sherif. i don’t really want to lose agency over my vote, especially when i don’t know or understand the long term effects of the auction, and you seem to have read everyone just fine at this point, where no one else has. i would be amiable to taking dormitory.

I don't see how the plan is as impossible as you're saying. It is possible to herd players sometimes. Also, I find it odd how strongly you reacted to my proposing a plan for dealing with the auction, acknowledging that it might not work, in response to NQT's question about whether we should try to clear the auction. I guess we can test how likely it would be to work:

Everyone: What are your thoughts on a plan that looks like this? Would you agree to it? How would you react if you were the executee?

• When a player would otherwise hammer, they instead declare intent to hammer (assuming the day isn't about to end).
• Everyone unvotes.
• People buy abilities, with the executee claiming Butchery so that they can't gum things up by claiming Smithy, and generally trusted players claiming the beneficial abilities.
• Once the last ability has been bought, the remaining players hammer the original executee, regardless of their personal opinions.

it does seem hard to coordinate, id be willing to participate. if i’m lynched, IS is AS does, that’s that.
you and imp are simultaneously at arm’s length and in each other’s faces.

it’s the d1 vote. yes, i agree it being town v town, but i would like to keep an eye on what they do tonight.
please don’t judge me town based on gambler. even if it’s a joke, it subtly reinforces me as town - but not guaranteed - when i’d rather be a guaranteed town person, instead of ‘oh, i dont have any reasoning, i just thought about it’.
not useless, but we apparently own the day, so

[EVERYONE]: why don’t we by using auction fully?

This could also go extremely poorly later in the game, so long as the mafia ensure they're the "remaining players".
Though that depends on whether the auction restocks.

we dont have to use this plan every day, just enough to be justified in use of it. also, the lynched was going to be gone if the plan hadn’t taken place, not accepting it with grace is a pretty scummy thing to do.

If the executee is Town then they should go along with it because them being executed with a cleared auction block is better for Town than them being executed without. If the executee is scum... Hmm, you make a good point. I agree that doing this later in the game would be a bad idea; I sort of took that for granted.

CM has made it explicit that progressing the auction will somehow let her use a kill. There isn't much to go on yet, but I'm not seeing her usual scumtells and I don't think scum!CM would be this forward with information, so I townread her.

that’s the gist of what i was going to put in notes at the end of this beast of a message.

I'm aware this sounds like complete nonsense to a lot of players, but if so, just don't worry about it.

$$$insert long list of evaluations$$$

Everyone else: keep your grubby mitts off that power or it'll be the worse for you tomorrow.

yes. yes it does.
very fair reads. i know i need to post more.
is there some specific info we should know about the auction that the general public doesn’t? or town secret/suspicion.

juicebox, Hyper: Neither of you have posted enough for me to get any kind of read on you, which means I'd be perfectly willing to execute either one of you today. Please fix this!
Hyper:

FIRST AND FOREMOST:
apologies for lack of activity. recently had a problem come up from the beginning of when i originally entered my in, but dealt with it. some small aftermath delayed me from my devices for 2 days, leading to this. anyways, im here now.

Hyper: Which players, if any, have you formed reads on?

give me an hour and i’ll send another message with some of my probing thoughts.

This did not happen. If it was because the problem came back up, that's fine. Otherwise, why not?

agreeable. im amending it as i speak (ha).
sleep, it was nearly midnight and i didn’t catch as much as i would’ve liked to the previous night. i posted what i was going to post then and there. also, typing on mobile is not easy or quick, especially when considering formatting. excuse my excuse, but it’s reality.

anyways, that’s the entirety of page 2’s messages that i would have a comment on. i have dinner to make, so i’ll put my responses and comments to page 3 out soon.

[Imp]

Hyper, as I move to answer your questions, I have a few.

Are you having fun?  What's the most and least fun parts of this game so far for you?  Which parts seem the most core important of the day chatter, and why?

At the time you voted for Juicebox, and said 'you have sent but a single message' - that was your second message that you voted Juicebox in - your number of posts looks about identical to his right before that voting one.

How likely do you think Juice is maf, and how much does being voted matter for people who don't post much?  Far as you know?  Like should we keep a vote on you so you don't get bored and forget we care about you?

side-note: is auction even the right way to describe it? more like a tiered marketplace. or sequential buy-in.

Maybe take that up with the mod, I call it auction and items because the mod did:

An auction has started! The following items are on the docket:

the auction is a very powerful tool. how often will we be able to use it though? is it a d/n1 thing? if the auction is as powerful as complete protection in lieu of a d1 vote (when we can settle on someone then take auction), why wouldn’t we touch the auction.

Spoiler: Hrm.  "why wouldn’t we touch the auction." (click to show/hide)

 - Referring to my earlier concern?  I was trying to figure out what the auction was... who it benefits beside the obvious.  I think it's way more complex than it looks on the surface.  And when I was suggesting that... I wanted to hear a bit more about the auction.... if it's maf-based, that's probably bad for town.  I think it's more likely a townie auction though.

Based on fully revealed info, each item bid on affects their bidder from ... whenever the mod gives it, I assume the moment of the vote on the item - until as each says:

This ability becomes locked at the start of the next day.

This is totally laughable if someone has an ability, especially 'free', to unlock an ability or modify an ability to edit out that lock... for themself or anyone else.  I don't know if anyone does.  But whoever gets these might have them and have them working for longer than expected; maybe they can control the ability's lock or maybe someone else can control their ability's lock.  Based on the claims, rules, and roles I know about, seems plausible, and I explicitly claim that I don't know if this is possible - so I explicitly claim at this time I can't do it and don't know if I could later.  But that it 'fits' into the puzzle of our intricate game?  It sure could, in the same way that 'res dead player' almost certainly does not exist in this same game (Do not pass go, do not collect $200; just BRING BACK THE TOWN MOD!).

So, if you can laughingly unlock stuff, you may or may not wanna claim that you can.  Maybe nobody can unlock that stuff; but for sure we think we trade our D1 vote for a passive... or if active, it's free... ability that will lock the start of the next day; probably never unlocking again unless somebody can fix that and chooses to.

"The Auction" is actually CrystalizedMire's 'tool' as near as I can tell.  Crystal hasn't told us much about the specifics, that could be townie.  So I have no idea about the future of the auction or if there's future auctions.  Based on the little I know, I'm jumping into 'this is probably towny' with both feet.

very in depth talking with elephant. send me the cliff notes? (ha).

Spoiler: sure (click to show/hide)

I think he's sure I need to die for his wincon; he kinda sounds interested in others dying instead of me... (There are snips; apparently EP wants explicit mention when that happens):

juicebox, Hyper: Neither of you have posted enough for me to get any kind of read on you, which means I'd be perfectly willing to execute either one of you today. Please fix this!

I would be perfectly OK lynching FoU over Imp, along with the lurkers if they don't get posting in time for me to form a read.) For now, I have left my vote and made my argument; I'll push or revisit it as required.

Despite that... he seems to keep focusing back on me pretty tightly.

Me, I wanna figure the game/him too out.  I wonder.... if he's protecting his very reasonble NJW buddy, if he's actually maf playing like this but without NJW as a buddy.... or if he's town going really all out.  Angry that I was maf last game and he was spec and he couldn't stop me because he's not in that game?  Sure but... I'm not maf here.  Which doesn't matter except if he's town... we only get so many ML.  Even if he's maf... I think I'm more scared of his partner(s), if he's maf I think he's like the front-line maf willing to be lost so the other(s) get more time (Kinda like how I wanted to protect you last game; your role was useful unlike mine, for all we ended up not even having you act 1 night.  But you could have if we needed it, so key).

But that's pretty wild spec.  I don't think I move to elim EP today, this could be town EP.  The part of me that judges that kinda stuff... I have sus but that part's going 'nah, prolly not unless [narrow range of probability]'.  I'd rather vote elsewhere.

Imp there is already so much content to read here, is this normal - last game, was it mitigated?

Mitigated by irl situations more than my maf alignment.  We also have a post limit here, I might post more often otherwise (but shorter posts on average).

Imp:
i dont really conceive of a way to reach even near post limit per day. it seems like a really high number just for convenience.

Spoiler: ... Hehe.  Blush.... (click to show/hide)

Post limits may actually be evil.

Mod note: I've been monitoring the situation and only Imp is/was on track to exceed the per-Phase post limit. Magma Mater, who has posted much less, might hit 40-45 posts. Nobody else is likely to come remotely, and I mean remotely, close. The post limit isn't intended to interfere with the game, only prevent situations like Choose-Your-Own-Spheres D2. Please don't worry about it too much.

Sorry about the interruption; please carry on.

Imp: I believe you just broke the 25-post-per-day limit (not to be confused with the 50-post-per-Day-Phase limit). I recognize that the former is a bit annoying to track without Mamobo, so I won't be enforcing it too strictly, but please try not to do it again.

I apologize to everyone!  And shall do better.  After this post I believe I have 19 remaining posts for this day, I will be using them sparingly because despite blowing through 30 of them really 'okay-feeling' suddenly 19 is like super far less than 30; clearly I'm insane.

I missed the 50 post limit too. Given Imp has used most of theirs, is Magma trying to get us to waste them all? Tells us town to post more, tells scum to shut up.  Well if that's how it goes maybe we should just Shorten the Day, preferably with them gone if they aren't willing to play.

Tric!  Waiiiiit!  We have people who haven't talked yet, the weekend just ended.  I don't even know who I wanna vote for yet.  I still have 19 posts left for game day.  That's loads!  I'll just use them sparingly, plus who really wants to listen to imp prattle?  Now I'll be more careful and save up my otherwise shorter posts into looooooong less frequent ones!  But we got folks I wanna read their posts!

[EVERYONE]: why don’t we by using auction fully?

It's complicated.  Maf may fear it's a town trap (and CrystalizedMire might gain some additional... whatever.  Involving people who participate.  That could fit like a puzzle piece into this game too)  Maf may wanna have their 2,3,4 however many votes to own the day, and may be drooling over the ability one of them has to make 'spent votes' that can't be used to vote permanent.  That... probably doesn't fit the 'town owns the day' theme... but that theme might be quite bendable if genre and/or 'but they walked into it knowingly and chose to participate' gets involved.

Town may legit wanna help control who is the elim and may think that's worth more than these effectively 1-shots.  Town may fear that maf can somehow use these abilities in unseen ways to control stuff.  Town might think 'hrm, is there someone that is key-in-lock for?  If I don't take it, someone 'better fit' might?

Some of us might not be following that closely/not really here.  Those are the votes maybe best put into the auction; those are the voters maybe least likely to helpfully vote for town.  A point NQT brought up strongly, and 1+ others touched on.

I should have been able to decide the starting Locations of everyone, but either there is another person who was voting on it, or the list was always going to be somewhat randomized.

Verm
Wow, that's cool.  Thank you for being vague and non-specific; you are being very helpful to me.

Do you know which or how many people ended up where you chose to put them?  Did you know anything about why you might want to put someone somewhere?

I am feeling my way through this, and you need to decide what if any answers may be unsafe to give or otherwise not aligned with your wincon.  I may not know enough to know which questions would be bad to answer if answered, I hope your more specific knowledge for this helps guide you to understand how and if to answer.

What do we know about a vote spread like this? Oh yeah, it never catches scum. Scum have to be all be asleep for this to do anything to hurt them. We need wagons people!

NQT
Agreed, but to get to the better wagons we probably need people talking/pushing/probing and that's often with votes (for those who still have them) and seeing who reacts and doesn't react.

We have the weird vote-eating auction.  And we have low activity.  And I love your call for action.  But action that helps town may start all scattered and shifty and spread out, and then consolidate.

But yeah, if we're to have an elim, it's gonna be a hammer, and maybe the expectation we don't nail a hammer every day is built into the game design. What with stuff like Crystal's D5 (or later) mention.  And that flip we see would need maybe many days to really get very strong.

I dunno, I prefer an elim today, and still hope I get to use my vote to participate in the elim stuff, we'll see as we get closer.


Ahh, my themesong for this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-AkrYewQiU

Spoiler: lightly parodied lyrics (click to show/hide)

Deep into the boardy-games
Miles from keep or hold
A troop of guards comes riding
With a lady and her gold
Riding in the center
Shrouded in her cloak of fur
Companioned by a maiden
And a toothless aged cur

Three things seem now end;
A flower blighted err it bloom
A message that was wasted
And a journey that was doomed

One among the townies
Has a shifting restless eye
And as they ride he scans the hills
That rise against the sky
He wears a sword and bracelet
Worth more than he could afford
And hidden in his baggage
Is a heavy secret horde

Of three things be wary;
Of the hungry hunting cat
The shepherd eating mutton
And the guardsman that is fat

From ambush bandits screaming
Charge the pack train and its prize
And all but four within the train
Are taken by surprise

And all but four are cut down
As a woodsman fells a log
The guardsmen and the lady
And the maiden and the dog

Three things know a secret;
First, the Lady in a dream
The dog who barks no warning
And the maid who does not scream

Then off the lady pulls her cloak
In armor she is clad
Her sword is out and ready and
Her eyes are fierce and glad
The maiden gestures briefly and
The dog's a cur no more
A wolf, sword maid, and sorceress
Now face the bandit horde.

Three things never anger,
Or you will not live for long;
A wolf with cubs
A man with power
And a women's sense of wrong

The bandits growl a challenge
And the lady only grins
The sorceress bows mockingly
And them the fight begins
When it ends there are but four
Left standing from that horde;
The witch, the wolf, the traitor,
And the woman with the sword

Three things never trust in;
The maiden sworn as pure
The vows a king has given
And the ambush that is sure.

They've stripped the traitor naked
And they've whipped him on his way
Into the barren hill sides like
The folk he used to slay

They take up their own vengeance
For the town that he's cut down
And then they load their horses
And they journey back to town

Three things trust and cherish well;
The horse on which you ride
The beast that guards and watches
And the player on your side

[NJW2000]

Short post as I'm about to go to bed, and haven't had time to digest everything that's gone on.

EuchreJack - as I said, scum!EJ is nervy and careful while town!EJ is aggressive and chaotic. This looks like town!EJ.

How would you describe CYOS2's scum!EJ, if you're willing to glance at that game?

I'll take a quick look tomorrow - I admit that I've read none of that game.

I would say I'm mostly talking about D1s in the quote... scum!EJ can get a bit less self-controlled in later days if the team falls apart, or earlier if they're really under pressure. This is a shot in the dark and may not apply at all to the game you linked, but I suspect what you're remembering is scum!EJ in later days.


@Imp: I understand a lot of your read on me is from tone... and tone reads I respect a lot and can't argue with, people on this forum need to use them more. That being said, both the games you're looking at where I was scum, I did have to stay alive to win, and was doing a fair bit of third party hunting... Neither of which apply here. Food for thought.

I do actually agree with what you say about investigations. From the OP, magma strongly hints that scum will have something to counter investigations, which suggests a) there's something off about any situation where they seem to be free, or b) they won't always work.

NJW: how often do you think you read correctly? are you confident in either leading, or giving suggestions?

When I'm not facing new players, I'd say my reads are right pretty often these days. Honestly, after last game I really regret not pushing them harder... In my early games, I used to tunnel, suffer confirmation bias and push poor cases way too hard. If anything, it's the opposite right now.

There have been a couple of times where I've fumbled a win when I should have doubled down on my intuitions, but I'm especially salty about the MVM game, where my read was correct, and another player even backed it up, yet it was all for nothing.


In the light of NQT's awesome play with big red letters that potentially sabotaged the entirety of D1, I'm reserving judgement there.

I think I would still like to see a FallacyofUrist elimination.

Could that feel a bit unfair, if they haven't had a chance to speak for themselves as much as some other players? Yes. Yes it could. I hope it does.

FoU felt things were a bit unfair in the CYOS game. I liked how that went.

[Crystalizedmire]

The auction ends at the end of this day.

[Elephant Parade]

Is there a reason you've mostly limited yourself to talking about the auction?