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[Strongpoint]

*Looks around cautiously*

What do we have right now? Well, not counting stuff no one cares about (like the ongoing deadly civil war in Sudan or Assad and Russia bombing Idlib again.) we have two things: Israel methodically demolishing Hezbollah in a devastating attack and everyone waiting for the possible Israeli attack on Iran trying to guess the scale and consequences.

PS. Keep it civil, please. And focused on news and opinions about news not history, philosophy, and morality discussions or, worse, discussing the moral character of certain individuals.

[Strongpoint]

Sinwar is dead. Chances are slim but It may accelerate the capitulation of the remains of HAMAS and end the war in Gaza

[martinuzz]

That is good news, for Israel as well as for the Palestinians. He was also known as 'the butcher of Khan Younis, for his violent treatment of Palestinians who cooperated with Israeli.

[Folly]

Sinwar is dead. Chances are slim but It may accelerate the capitulation of the remains of HAMAS and end the war in Gaza

I think it's naïve to believe that Netanyahu would be satisfied with ending Hamas(also unlikely to happen). Netanyahu has stated many times over that his goal is nothing short of genocide, and he won't stop the war while there are still civilians to bomb and any thinly veiled excuse for doing so.

[MaxDemone]

Sinwar is dead. Chances are slim but It may accelerate the capitulation of the remains of HAMAS and end the war in Gaza

I think it's naïve to believe that Netanyahu would be satisfied with ending Hamas(also unlikely to happen). Netanyahu has stated many times over that his goal is nothing short of genocide, and he won't stop the war while there are still civilians to bomb and any thinly veiled excuse for doing so.

This. He has constantly been treading a line of his desire to wipe out that entire region and his need to keep them around so he will keep getting elected because "I must stop them".

[Great Order]

Today in "Nuance is dead" I made a comment with a defence of Israel making *a* response to the kidnappings last year while still saying they've taken the response too far, and whaddya know I'm now a Zionist patsy.

This war's done more than any other to annihilate the idea that there can be more than two positions on anything, and I don't understand why. Is it that our critical thinking skills have degraded and this has just been the tipping point where, like some sort of cursed herd immunity, enough people are completely taking one side or the other that everyone feels compelled to? Or is it just that it's a complicated situation and people are too lazy to think beyond the here-and-now?

EDIT: While the first bit is something of a rant, the big thing here is the question I have: Why is it this war seems to only allow people to think on the fringe positions? What is it that sets up people to behave like that here?

[Folly]

Why is it this war seems to only allow people to think on the fringe positions? What is it that sets up people to behave like that here?

A lifetime of dehumanizing conditions being created en masse, rolled up in extreme religious zealotry?

Whether you take one side or the other, or acknowledge the extremes on both sides, there's not a lot of room for cool heads in this situation.

[MaxDemone]

Today in "Nuance is dead"-

Nuance died in the late '00s/early '10s with the advent of "open internet" as I call it. The death of forums and other specific websites in exchange for things like facebook, twitter, and reddit caused everyone to feel the need voice their generally emotionally charged opinions on current events. It breaks my heart.

[anewaname]

There are only two acceptable positions because it has become another battlefield for the war.

The problem with war is that there is only "my side" and "everyone else".
  And the first action in war is recognizing "my target" within "everyone else"...

In the physical realm, "You see that kid with the backpack? They might be a suicide bomber. If you can't scare them away, shoot them."
In the metaphysical realm, "You read that post? They expressed a point opposing one component of our narrative... verbally attack them to provoke a response so we know if we should start tracking them."

Israel is using AI to find targets for both physical and metaphysical targets. They probably post internet activity on both sides of the narrative, precisely because they are attempting to force everyone "within the space" to choose one side or the other so they know who to target.

You got attacked because they want to know what side you are on...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

When a war extends into the meta-physical realm, there are no boundaries.... they become games without frontiers. I couldn't resist a plug for that song, thought it might not quite fit with the rest of the post.

[Strongpoint]

This war's done more than any other to annihilate the idea that there can be more than two positions on anything, and I don't understand why

I probably should resist entering the conversation but it is too personal...

Because there can't be more than two positions in a war. Not for people actually invested in a war. You are either on the one side or you are on the other. If you want to communicate with pro-Israelis about something you think Israel does wrong or Palestinians do right firmly announce that you are a pro-Israeli first. And vice versa with pro-Palestinians. And I speak about moderates. Extremists won't listen unless you agree with all their points.

If you insist on being "neutral" there will be only two outcomes - you will be either viewed as a dishonest enemy or spineless nothing without opinion at all.

[martinuzz]

If you insist on being "neutral" there will be only two outcomes - you will be either viewed as a dishonest enemy or spineless nothing without opinion at all.

Or you are called Switzerland, and all the rich folks in the world will give you their monies for safekeeping.

[EuchreJack]

The problem I have with the current conflict and rhetoric in Israel is the lack of clearly defined end goals.

Frankly, Netanyahu is Bush W.  He'll keep waging his war until he's out of office. 
Eventually, people in the United States got sick of Bush W.  We would have probably voted him out of a Third Term, if he wasn't disqualified from running for a Third Term under our Constitution.

Can a person even be pro-Palestine? Apparently, all their leaders are dead.

I'm Pro-Israel.  It's time for them to declare victory and plan for the reintegration of Palestine into Israel.

[Strongpoint]

My hope for mostly news thread has died quickly...

I'm Pro-Israel.  It's time for them to declare victory and plan for the reintegration of Palestine into Israel.

Apart from very far-right, who want to "reintegrate" Palestine via ethnic cleansing, very few Israeli actually want Gaza and the West Bank to be Israel. They may consider it their historical land but the hassle...

Can a person even be pro-Palestine? Apparently, all their leaders are dead.

This is a very weird take. Yes, you totally can be on the side that is losing badly. Besides, with HAMAS, just like with Hezbollah, there is Iran to provide basic C&C and safe places to reorganize so merely killing leaders can't destroy either Hamas or Hezbollah

[martinuzz]

I am pro- the right to exist and live in safety for Israel, I am pro-treating Palestinians as human beings who also deserve to live in safety.
I am pro- the right of Israel to defend itself against future terrorist massacres
I am anti-Hamas, I am anti-Hezbollah and generally anti-terrorist movements and terrorist states that deny Israel's right to exist and live in in safety.
I am anti- terrorist organisations that hide between civilians, and fire rockets from civilian areas thus turning civilian areas into legit military targets.
I am anti- 'fellow muslim brother countries who support the Palestinian cause' but do not open their borders to Palestinian refugees during armed conflict.
I am also anti- extremist zionist colonists driving Palestinians out of their homes and settling occupied territory.
I am pro- a two state solution, but the primary condition for that to happen is that those who deny Israel's right to exist and like to see all jews dead cease to exist.

This whole situation is way too complex to choose sides in a black and white kind of way

[Great Order]

Pretty much the same for me, although I'd add specific opposition to the brutal tactics the IDF has displayed (Hamas it goes without saying, terrorist organisations have a habit of engaging in brutality because they don't have numbers or strength, so they use shock tactics instead (No, I'm not excusing them))

There's a reason I tend to sum up my views as "Both sides are dicks" - It's easier than breaking down my individual views on each facet of the conflict. Alas, as mentioned previously, this tends to result in everyone seeing you as a toady for whichever side they don't support.

The other issue is this is a situation where you can't just go "If one side would just *stop*...", because neither side will stop, neither side wants to stop, and even if the important people on one side or both did they'd be out of power in a coup, election or whatever within weeks. There's no easy, obvious solution, which makes me wonder if that's part of what's driving the push to extreme positions.

To go on a tangent, there was a pro-Palestinian campout protest at my university last year. Lasted through all of spring, but presumably the summer holidays broke it up.
I assume to prevent it beginning again, the entire grassy area it was on is now covered in temporary metal fencing. To be fair, the grass needs to recover too.