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[Strongpoint]

This whole situation is way too complex to choose sides in a black and white kind of way

I have heard this so many times. And I can't wrap my mind around this. What is so complex there?

There are two groups of people fighting. Which one is closer to my beliefs and values? I support the one that is closer. And, in the case of Israel vs its enemies, the answer is beyond obvious to me.  It is fascist theocrats vs flawed democracy that is under some influence of fascist theocrats.

[wobbly]

Shrug. Neither side is actually acting in a way that deserves my support, so I support neither. Being less toxic then your enemy doesn't get you a free pass.

[Strongpoint]

The US is investigating a leak of highly classified US intelligence about Israel’s plans for retaliation against Iran, according to three people familiar with the matter. One of the people familiar confirmed the documents’ authenticity.

The leak is “deeply concerning,” a US official told CNN.

The documents, dated October 15 and 16, began circulating online Friday after being posted on Telegram by an account called “Middle East Spectator.”

*facepalms*

[anewaname]

I've been considering that the leak was deliberate by Israel. Israel could be attempting to stir up ground-movement so they can GPS-locate something they want to drop another monster bomb on, and they would also be able to blame the leak on "anti-semitic US democrats" right before the election.

[Doomblade187]

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

[Strongpoint]

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

I wrote a long, a very long answer to that... And then decided that it is not worth it and deleted it. Thread will spiral in bad places again.  All I can say is a very tldr version: It is naive pacifism, it is not how wars stop. Side A won't randomly decide "Well, we want our enemy to hate us less let's stop shooting, this will stop this war and prevent future ones, we just need to wait until they also decide to stop shooting too seeing how good we became."

Not for a second will I object to a viable effective military action under the motivation "You know that the next generations of Russians will hate us even more after that?"

[Doomblade187]

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

I wrote a long, a very long answer to that... And then decided that it is not worth it and deleted it. Thread will spiral in bad places again.  All I can say is a very tldr version: It is naive pacifism, it is not how wars stop. Side A won't randomly decide "Well, we want our enemy to hate us less let's stop shooting, this will stop this war and prevent future ones, we just need to wait until they also decide to stop shooting too seeing how good we became."

Not for a second will I object to a viable effective military action under the motivation "You know that the next generations of Russians will hate us even more after that?"

An insurgent group or terror organization is not a *foreign power* invading your soil and you fight them a different way. I'm saying that what's currently being done by israel is not only inhumane, it is *not productive*.

[eerr]

Yea tensions are rising, Israel might do something more productive about it.

[MaxDemone]

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

I cannot remember which US General it was, but during Iraq/Afghanistan, one of them said that for every civilian you kill, you create ten more terrorists.

[StrawBarrel]

Israel’s escalating use of torture against Palestinians in custody a preventable crime against humanity: UN experts | OHCHR
05 August 2024
The Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights

The experts received substantiated reports of widespread abuse, torture, sexual assault and rape, amid atrocious inhumane conditions, with at least 53 Palestinians apparently dying as a result in 10 months.
Countless testimonies by men and women speak of detainees in cage-like enclosures, tied to beds blindfolded and in diapers, stripped naked, deprived of adequate healthcare, food, water and sleep, electrocutions including on their genitals, blackmail and cigarette burns. In addition, victims spoke of loud music played until their ears bled, attacks by dogs, waterboarding, suspension from ceilings and severe sexual and gender-based violence.

This is very frightening stuff.

“What is required now is nothing short of an independent, international presence of human rights observers. They must become the world’s eyes in light of Israel’s brazen failure to prevent and address the heinous rights violations against prisoners and detainees,” the experts said.

Yeah we need human rights observers for the current situation.

[wobbly]

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

I wrote a long, a very long answer to that... And then decided that it is not worth it and deleted it. Thread will spiral in bad places again.  All I can say is a very tldr version: It is naive pacifism, it is not how wars stop. Side A won't randomly decide "Well, we want our enemy to hate us less let's stop shooting, this will stop this war and prevent future ones, we just need to wait until they also decide to stop shooting too seeing how good we became."

Not for a second will I object to a viable effective military action under the motivation "You know that the next generations of Russians will hate us even more after that?"

I'd argue the war will never stop as long as Israel has poor relations with every other government in the region. It's never going to solve that issue through military force and deterrence, at best it can hold the status quo. Better relations with Iran are probably off the cards without change in Iran itself. The other countries in the region, well there was a glimpse of progress, and then the terrorist attack on Israel happened and Israel reacted, and any chance of change got thrown in the gutter. So yes pacifism won't help but neither will Israel being a loner in a sea of enemies. And I doubt the US propping up Israel's military force helps this. From my perspective it's just helping Israel avoid more diplomatic solutions.

Edit: Seems to me every country in that region hates its neighbours and manages to do diplomacy. My question with Israel is why does Israel believe it's so special? And more to the point why do people who don't actually live in the region continuously act like Israel is somehow special?

[martinuzz]

Perhaps because those neighboring countries are just a few of the many dozens of arab / muslim countries in the world, and Israel is the *only* Jewish / jewish country in the world. It's not strange they want that protected, after many centuries of persecution, pogroms and holocaust, and the rest of the world has a moral obligation there.

Note that I do not believe that this gives Israel the right to tread on human rights and ignore international law.

[wobbly]

I'm not German, but I am a halfie, my mother is Romanian born German, and when my grand parents fled World War II both sides shot at them. If Germany and the rest of the world wants to own up to moral culpability for what happened I'm all for that, but bad history doesn't make Israel's actions right.

[StrawBarrel]

Sinwar is dead. Chances are slim but It may accelerate the capitulation of the remains of HAMAS and end the war in Gaza

I think it's naïve to believe that Netanyahu would be satisfied with ending Hamas(also unlikely to happen). Netanyahu has stated many times over that his goal is nothing short of genocide, and he won't stop the war while there are still civilians to bomb and any thinly veiled excuse for doing so.

I agree with you here brother Folly. I personally think that it’s a big problem that Netanyahu is continuing his war beyond Hamas. Israel is currently attacking Lebanon. It is terrible to see Netanyahu continues is violence and war criminal activities.

Is the situation actually that complex? Continuing to batter and bomb and kill isn't going to end a terrorist organization, it's not going to undo the killing. It's just going to make people hate you more.

I wrote a long, a very long answer to that... And then decided that it is not worth it and deleted it. Thread will spiral in bad places again.  All I can say is a very tldr version: It is naive pacifism, it is not how wars stop. Side A won't randomly decide "Well, we want our enemy to hate us less let's stop shooting, this will stop this war and prevent future ones, we just need to wait until they also decide to stop shooting too seeing how good we became."

Not for a second will I object to a viable effective military action under the motivation "You know that the next generations of Russians will hate us even more after that?"

An insurgent group or terror organization is not a *foreign power* invading your soil and you fight them a different way. I'm saying that what's currently being done by israel is not only inhumane, it is *not productive*.

Yeah I think you are right sister Doomblade187. What the government of Israel is doing is both inhumane and unproductive.

---
https://www.cldh-lebanon.org/HumanRightsBrie/0d598833-408a-44dd-85a7-920f3dd7a593_HR%20Brief%20(October%207%20to%20October%2013).pptx.pdf
Page 4 of HUMAN RIGHTS DEVELOPMENTS IN A WEEK 7 October - 13 October 2024

Thursday
10 October
2024

Civil Defense mourns five members
The General Directorate of Civil Defense released a statement on X on October 10, 2024, in which it mourned five members; the operational employees Abdullah Muhammad Hassan Al-Moussawi, Hassan Nimr Issa, Bassam Muhammad Hassan Al-Moussawi, Joseph Grace Al-Badawi, and Ali Samir Najdi, from the Tyre Regional Center, who were killed on 09-10-2024 during their presence inside the Civil Defense Center in the town of Dardaghya following an Israeli airstrike targeting the center.

[martinuzz]

I agree with you here brother Folly. I personally think that it’s a big problem that Netanyahu is continuing his war beyond Hamas. Israel is currently attacking Lebanon. It is terrible to see Netanyahu continues is violence and war criminal activities.

It is also terrible to see Hezbollah continueing it's violence and war criminal activities using Lebanon as a base of operations.