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[juicebox]

Juicebox, you're so quiet, I feel kinda scared.  You've seen what you wanna see and have nothing to say, no reassurance or clues to offer - so you're the worst of the worst, right?  Just here for the night game, and nothing else splatters?

watches the tangle between Tric and Verm  Huh.  So Tric happens to be a near-mirror-image of a player they opened with a vote on and discussed sending on a one-way commute.  Sure, that happens nearly every game.

Verm's info dumps are believable to me and are helping me try to figure stuff out.

Fal, nice.  Like the reads.  Fal, I can be Willy-Wonka-like for you, maybe.  But as-is, I'm mebby more like what's missing from this song+the therapist in this song..  Fal, if you wanna discuss what you do/don't wanna see happen to help your wincon along, listening.  You don't have a ghost of a chance?  You could be a player I'm looking for.  Some clues how to help you, more specific than giving you a golden ticket, would help.  After all, most of the folks who got Willy's ticket didn't do well; details would help.  To the cat, this is how I am, I hope.

Crystalizedmire, hrm.  Really has a totally different feel than the rest of us, to me.  Maybe not quite this level, but this kinda sorta.  Scares me nearly as much as Juicebox, though for different reasons.

Max:  Has probably learned how to soothe me.  Is very soothing to me so far this game.


Tric, do you share the same 'don't eat candy' issue as Verm claimed?  Is anyone else willing to claim if they can/can't eat candy/perhaps other food?

I'll mention that I'm aware that wounded condition, while it will kill on the second application, doesn't kill by stacking the same phase (based on my info about it).  The safer way for multiple-wounders to wound the same person is during the same phase.  So based on that info, when Tric suggested to Verm that they both target me tonight (I think that's what Tric meant??) it wasn't, I think, attempted murder; plus, Tric appears to be claiming he needs to visit everyone before the person dies (or loses, or wins).  I struggle to see why/how Tric could request or mess up requesting such a role/alignment/wincon; I'd expect Tric to go a killer route, but... I get that anything can happen.  Still, I don't know what to think about a Tric that isn't prepping to kill everyone, plus this Tric seems really into Verm.

I want to ask if anyone is willing to share if they already have any status tags.  I'm particularly interested in knowing if anyone already has either of:

undead

monster

I'm still interested in learning if anyone can refill shots.

I don't expect more folks to admit if they can wound - but seriously, stacking wounding all the same phase is way safer than spreading it out, especially if other folks can't also fix wounding and if we could get many wounds per cycle.  I currently fix 1 per cycle, and I can potentially win regardless of some deaths/wins/losses, so I won't stress much about this.

I confirm I can eat candy.  I don't eat corpses.  I do have a 1-shot revive; all info I have is it's a non-alignment change revive.  There's some status stuff involved, and I probably prefer to res someone who would otherwise lose; like if Verm died I'm more likely to res him who needs to target everyone instead of Crystalizedmire who claims can win when dead.  That's just my preference.

I want to reduce stress on my fellow players and I have a lot of ways to win.  I will try hard, unless threatened and pushed badly, to help ensure our wincon-challenged players who choose to claim such, which currently appear to be Verm and Tric, have a chance to target me before I win/lose/pop-out... whatever winning players do.

I can't agree to be the last player standing though.  I expressly lose if I'm the last alive.  I need live allies.  Happily I should have a wide range of possible allies and a lot of ways to help.

Imp don't be scared, I can offer you some reassurance. I'm not an sk or a cultist or anything like that. I don't mean you any harm at all.

The main reason I'm not speaking is that I'm not entirely sure what to say or what questions to ask. I'm used to working together with town to find scum, and this is an altogether different situation. As soon as I figure out what to do and how to navigate this I'll get a little more talkative.

[Maximum Spin]

Max, if we 'elim yes' do you immediately leave the game?  How immediate, do we doom Tric and Verm by losing you D0 before they can visit you N0?  I'm cool with helping you win, even very fast, and some others simultaneously losing doesn't mean I lose - but I prefer to support everyone I don't mechanically need to see lose.  The only folks I gotta see lose are those who have to see me lose or who won't allow me to progress even if they don't actually need me to lose but decide to hunt me[...]

Max, would you still win if we elim yes D1 instead of D0?  So those who have to visit you or lose can do so N0, does that work for you?

I'm not gonna tell you my wincon, and I'm not sure why you think the 'yes' has anything to do with me, but I certainly don't need to win this phase. I can win whenever as long as I stay alive, unless there's something else that can stop me that I don't know about.

That doesn't mean I trust the idea of being visited either, though.

[TricMagic]

I don't think Tric understood what my wincon was.
I need to visit every player, alive or dead. If a player leaves the game while alive, I lose, and leave the game. I can still target players that are removed from the game, as long as they are dead. Once I have visited every player successfully, I leave the game.

A A A A Paradise/Hell. A Player leaves game, I lose. The Live Player leaves game, you lose. What's the difference? You kill, I control. I speak, you wound. We're surprisingly alike, but which is the right one?

Not you, never. Your actions result in my loss. Your actions result in your loss. We're the same. But we shouldn't Be.

Our Alignments differ. I'm blue, you're orange. good for town/bad for scum.

[Imp]

Huh.

So, Verm.

I benefit from people who are already dead

Tell us more?  This seems different from your 'day can target a dead person to create wincon whatever with them', as that's not a benefit other than 'whew, I don't instalose' and nobody considers that a 'benefit', right?

Also, Verm, I'd like to hear you explain the apparent inconsistencies here:

Once a player has won or lost, they leave the game. They may no longer post in the thread, can no longer action or be targeted, and so forth.

My day action can be used on any dead player, whether they are in the game or not, prevents actions from or against them, and checks them off of my list.

In what way can you target what can't be targeted, or what else is going on in your mech claim there?

TricMagic,

And on the next night does Vermillion fall to crystal net.

Why do you think she 'nets' at night?

My mission is simple, interact with all. No qualms, no lynch, I win my game.

I'm cool with this.  It's also what Verm claimed, except he claims to give a wound to those he visits, which is incidental and not needed for his wincon.  If I understand right, Tric doesn't cause wounds?

As is, you lose as soon as I can no longer win.

From the claims both Tric and Verm seem likely to lose.

If anyone wins who either didn't visit yet; if anyone loses who either didn't visit yet; if anyone dies who Tric didn't visit yet (unless there's a chance that person comes back to life?)

Maybe there's a way to tie their visits together or something, so anyone visited by either counts as both.  That's not in my bag of tricks this game so I have no idea; as is you both seem very likely to lose quick if all claims are true.  But that seems weird, so there's probably a way one or both of you could be saved.


Crystalizedmire, I'm confused.  Would you please clearly state who you need to kill (not who you guess you need to kill) for your wincon?  If you don't know please find out.  Like, is it everyone who currently has the status undead, everyone who can convert alignment (that's a key difference.  Status is not alignment!) or what.

Imp&Fallacy: I am technically hunting a status condition caused by the cult called [undead].

Imp: If you currently have a status that is given to you by the modifier, then you count as a cult member for my wincon.

I win when there is no one in the cult, including the cult leader. Also, you seem to speak favourably about the cult, are you the cult leader, Imp?

Yes I'm sure it is a cult and I one that I explicitly cannot win with.

I have role info that there is a cult in the game. The cult members could act twice per night and could also convert others. I can offer protection to others but I can only pick one person per day.

At very least 1 piece of this quoted info has to be false.  Maybe many pieces of that quoted info.  Maybe you're just confused or mis-spoke.  I'm trying to coordinate a win with you, accuracy and honesty matters.

I suspect you're in a panic and you probably should be, but I'm still not (one of) your wincon-needed-death(s) unless you're lying or there's stuff you don't understand thus are giving misinformation about. I have no status conditions, I have no modifiers, and I cannot change anyone's alignment  Additionally the word 'undead' is not part of my role name or alignment name, neither is 'zombie', 'vampire', 'mummy', 'ghost', 'Frankenstein', or any other word that means an undead thing.  If you win when there's nobody with the status undead - then there's someone who already has that status and they already know that you need them dead; find them and handle that.  If you win when there's nobody who has the status 'undead' - I can work around that.  While some things I can do would create the status undead, for me it's incidental; not everything I do carries that 'undead' status and I don't need the 'undead' status in play for my wincon.

Explicitly:  The candy I give, if eaten, and any wounds I treat will not cause the target to gain the status 'undead'.  People can interact with me on those levels without getting entangled in this 'undead' stuff to the limit of my knowledge, and I'm tempted to see how this tension between CM and her 'cult target' plays out before I risk making that more complex.

Crystalizedmire, I really wonder:

1) If you win, you leave play.  What happens to you after that?  Like if I haven't won yet, you win, and then I add undead status to the game?  You already won, you're safe and don't have to care, right?  Please find out and confirm.

2) If the undead status folks currently in play happen to win, they leave play.  Do you have to kill them/prevent their win, in order for you to win at all?  Or can you help speed their win/they happen to win anyway, which takes them out of play, thus setting up your wincon and you then leave play.  And then I don't have to worry about cult or its cult hunter and can play with my non-offensive undead status tag stuff if seems useful for me and/or anyone else?

Imp don't be scared, I can offer you some reassurance. I'm not an sk or a cultist or anything like that. I don't mean you any harm at all.

The main reason I'm not speaking is that I'm not entirely sure what to say or what questions to ask. I'm used to working together with town to find scum, and this is an altogether different situation. As soon as I figure out what to do and how to navigate this I'll get a little more talkative.

What if anything are you willing to say about how you do win, or things that might make winning harder or easier for you?  Has anything anyone's said yet made you think you could help them or they could help you, or does anyone sound like they might actually be against your wincon?

Can you eat candy?

Do you think you might be able to achieve your wincon fairly early in the game?

Is the gameplay making sense to you so far?  What do you understand of each players' position and what each is concerned about and/or wants?

I'm not gonna tell you my wincon, and I'm not sure why you think the 'yes' has anything to do with me, but I certainly don't need to win this phase. I can win whenever as long as I stay alive, unless there's something else that can stop me that I don't know about.

That doesn't mean I trust the idea of being visited either, though.

I was speculating on the yes thing.  I don't know anything about that vote target or why it's there; you did mention

I could win right now with a little cooperation. But I feel like that would rob me of the fun of figuring stuff out, too.

Umm, a hammer of 'yes' could fit that.  Except we have no information about if hammers are in play.

Imp, I intend to give you a small gift at the end of day, if you'll say yes to it.

Yes came into the vocabulary there.

I don't have any information to share right now, but I am wondering how we're going to come to a consensus on who to vote today. Maybe we try to vote the person who'll interfere with more people's wincons, but still that's quite hard to determine.

I think I'm just going to vote yes, thanks.

Definitely appears to be affirmative action that could use some cooperation.  But that's all spec and circumstantial information, but it's why I think that 'Yes' vote and you are maybe connected.

[VermilionSkies]

I benefit from people who are already dead

Tell us more?  This seems different from your 'day can target a dead person to create wincon whatever with them', as that's not a benefit other than 'whew, I don't instalose' and nobody considers that a 'benefit', right?

I, uh.
I do consider 'being able to progress to my wincon faster' a benefit, yes.
Normally, I can only check off one person per day/night cycle, but if an unvisited person dies, I can check them off using my day action, and then visit another new person during the night.

Also, Verm, I'd like to hear you explain the apparent inconsistencies here:

Once a player has won or lost, they leave the game. They may no longer post in the thread, can no longer action or be targeted, and so forth.

My day action can be used on any dead player, whether they are in the game or not, prevents actions from or against them, and checks them off of my list.

In what way can you target what can't be targeted, or what else is going on in your mech claim there?

My day action allows me to target a dead player, or a player that left the game while they were dead. It checks them off of my list, and makes all other actions that involve them fail for the rest of the game.
Technically they're still targetable, but any actions with them are wasted, and they are essentially removed from the game.

[Imp]

I benefit from people who are already dead

Tell us more?  This seems different from your 'day can target a dead person to create wincon whatever with them', as that's not a benefit other than 'whew, I don't instalose' and nobody considers that a 'benefit', right?

I, uh.
I do consider 'being able to progress to my wincon faster' a benefit, yes.
Normally, I can only check off one person per day/night cycle, but if an unvisited person dies, I can check them off using my day action, and then visit another new person during the night.

Also, Verm, I'd like to hear you explain the apparent inconsistencies here:

Once a player has won or lost, they leave the game. They may no longer post in the thread, can no longer action or be targeted, and so forth.

My day action can be used on any dead player, whether they are in the game or not, prevents actions from or against them, and checks them off of my list.

In what way can you target what can't be targeted, or what else is going on in your mech claim there?

My day action allows me to target a dead player, or a player that left the game while they were dead. It checks them off of my list, and makes all other actions that involve them fail for the rest of the game.
Technically they're still targetable, but any actions with them are wasted, and they are essentially removed from the game.

If the person who died was one you already targeted, do you get any benefit in any way from that dead person?

It does seem really weird that you have a mechanic/claim you have a mechanic that appears to go against the publicly stated way the game works.

If you haven't asked our host to confirm in private message, I super suggest you do so, in case how you think it works and how it actually works because of how the mod thought about how it will work may be different.

Without going into details, I got pretty intense about something in my abilities too, which appeared to allow something weird to function.  Instead, it allows me to waste an action if I choose to waste that action that way; it doesn't allow work arounds.

[VermilionSkies]

Yep, double-checking, my day action has zero effect on already checked people, other than removal from the game.
It does directly state that it functions on players who left the game while dead, though.

[Imp]

Yep, double-checking, my day action has zero effect on already checked people, other than removal from the game.
It does directly state that it functions on players who left the game while dead, though.

Wow.  Umm.

If someone dies and you check them....

They're removed from the game but if their wincon is later met... are they able to win?

Are you magic-make-you-lose man, if you eat a corpse that hasn't won yet but could?

[VermilionSkies]

--snipsnip--

Wow.  Umm.

If someone dies and you check them....

They're removed from the game but if their wincon is later met... are they able to win?

Are you magic-make-you-lose man, if you eat a corpse that hasn't won yet but could?

I think it's just action failure, and wincon checking isn't related to actions at all.

[TricMagic]

Great wolf, eating hearts. If they are gone, don't you lose me too?

[Imp]

--snipsnip--

Wow.  Umm.

If someone dies and you check them....

They're removed from the game but if their wincon is later met... are they able to win?

Are you magic-make-you-lose man, if you eat a corpse that hasn't won yet but could?

I think it's just action failure, and wincon checking isn't related to actions at all.

Cool. I think Tric's trying repeatedly to ask (in character of a inference-required songster) how the heck you're supposed to win if this situation happens:

Player A dies, which does not force A to lose, and neither you nor Tric have checked A yet and you haven't visited Tric yet.  I (and maybe others) can bring A back to life, which could allow you and Tric to visit live A so you both stay in play.  However, if you eat A's corpse, Tric can never visit A; Tric loses and leaves game - he lost while alive so he leaves no corpse, right?

So you have no way to visit Tric, so you lose and leave the game, right?

If that's not what's happening in your thinking --- Tric's been hyper focused on the idea of you killing folks, but I'm thinking about **any** killer or anyone who dies.  Or anyone who wins or loses.

Is your situation as perilous as Tric makes it sound?

[VermilionSkies]

Sort of?
A lot of that can be fixed by just... not eating the first dead person, because then the revive will have been used.
I also plan to get to Tric and Max early, because it sounds like they both have very volatile win/losecons that might see them out of the game before I visit them otherwise.

[TricMagic]

Sort of?
A lot of that can be fixed by just... not eating the first dead person, because then the revive will have been used.
I also plan to get to Tric and Max early, because it sounds like they both have very volatile win/losecons that might see them out of the game before I visit them otherwise.

~~~

[Crystalizedmire]

Imp: The only thing I know is that while I technically win when there are no living undead, all I know is that there is a cult with the undead status cobdition and my role is flavoured towards them

[Imp]

Sort of?
A lot of that can be fixed by just... not eating the first dead person, because then the revive will have been used.
I also plan to get to Tric and Max early, because it sounds like they both have very volatile win/losecons that might see them out of the game before I visit them otherwise.

~~~

Yep.

I don't know what to say or decide.

People who win, lose, or die early don't have to matter for my wincon; I'm wise not to invest much in them.  (I can bring someone back, and that might help my wincon; but if I leave someone dead it doesn't hurt my wincon.  Also, my res does give its target an 'undead' status - thing is, the person who gets it, it's not contagious.  A lot of what CM claims about undead in general is not completely true.  But if I'm avoiding adding undead to the game out of respect for CM's needs, which is a possible path I take, that also means I don't res someone - maybe someone else can in a way that doesn't involve the 'undead' status.  Sure hope CM can just win or die and then I can proceed normally, as if a hunter of 'status undead' were no longer in play).

Max seems okay, but that's Max, and his response to discussing his wincon was very Max.  Also, my viewpoint is filtered heavily by my wincon, abilities, and game situation; I'm willing to cooperate and have a lot of ways to win; I'm designed to empower others and I hope nobody needs me to lose (and that CM decides that's probably true for her too; she's pretty stubborn sometimes.  She may have to see me dead and her not won and me nothing to do with her claimed wincon and her actual enemies indeed with that time to grow before she goes for someone else, kinda reminds me of the overall situation in the Heist game Tric ran where I had noooooo chance.  Good thing I don't have to have a chance to have a chance to win )  If I were town I might have to worry about this-game Max.  Crisis averted, may there not be an unknown-unknown.

Verm sounds great to me.  He causes wounds; nobody else mentioned they do.  If I'm not going any of my 'incidentally also undead' routes towards a win, I need wounds to treat or some out-of-my-control luck.  Here's to a fair amount of chances to do some doctoring!

Tric is eerie.  I think he said he can't eat candy?  He has plans and big ones, seems pro-CM and very strongly anti-Verm.  Seems at risk of early loss.  I'd like to help, unsure if I can.  Controlling if and when anyone besides myself win or lose is freaking hard.  Honestly, the kindest thing I could do, based on what he's claimed if I understand it correctly, is grant him my double action ability - but then he's got the 'undead status' and while he's double actioning, CM has a beef with him, maybe some undead master has possessed/inducted him (not me, but if there is an actual cult and not a CM hallucination then maybe they can just claim anyone who is undead status?)  So I think I have to say 'I care, I'm interested in learning how I can help, and wish you well' to Tric and see how it goes for him, at least for now.

CM has openly told us she's a cult/undead hunter.  I imagine that has the cult/undead after her.  I'm 'helping' that one by staying out of it until it's decided.  I don't have kills or protects of any standard sort; I can delay or entirely avoid producing undead status folks that I could otherwise create.  I presume there's a war between CM and someone and only CM is visibly trying to fight.  I'm surprised there isn't more prediction CM may die early, but I guess anyone undead status that plans to deal with her doesn't discuss.  I could toss CM a candy, but that's only tempting if CM lasts a while and if CM would eat it, and factors like 'so, how does that war go?' matter there too.

Fal is interesting.  Really wants me to be/wants to know if I am Willy Wonka?  Probably wants candy?  No idea what Fal wants, wincon wise.

Juicebox seems very careful!  That's all I got there.


Hey, Crystalizedmire, What do you protect from?  Gaining the undead status tag, gaining any status tags, against alignment conversion, against death, and/or what?