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Author Topic: Damned cavespiders  (Read 3212 times)

doomlichen

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Damned cavespiders
« on: November 04, 2007, 05:03:00 am »

Well, first game in the new version and so far 5 adventurers dead to cavespiders.

No matter what experience I am or how injured the spider is, it seems the moment they spray web I'm just hosed. No joke, once I had a spider with all 8 legs broken from thrown rocks and its remaining body parts in the gray when my charging axe men was sprayed with web. He was consumed slowly.

Well, after playing all this time, I still have a lot of problems with the game so could any experienced adventurer help me?

1. How do I eat or drink stuff? I once had a water skin with 3 (pieces, one can only assume) of water inside but I have no idea or to drink it, had to travel out of the map to refresh.

2. How do you use the wrestling system? I'm always just grabbing and letting people go. Unless I'm pinching them, but that hardly seems to do anything

3. Where can I buy new items, and what should I buy? 2000+ pieces of copper is incredibly heavy. Most towns only have one or two shops, and while sometimes you luck out with iron platemail, most of the time they have the same leather stuff I loot off zombies. I run out of arrows and my bow just becomes useless without anyplace to restock.

4. Where can I find item stats? How do I know what does more damage?

5. Is there any way to reduce lag? It really is a game killer.

6. How are stat growths determined? Is it dependent on what skill you level up?

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Fishersalwaysdie

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2007, 08:52:00 am »

1. 'e' as same as eating stuff.
2. Try holding their limbs, then you can lock on them and break them.
  Or gouge eyes by holding their head with your hands.
3. You can only buy things in human towns(I think), and you should buy things          with better quality markings (you can view it in the help)
4. In wiki or the raws.
5. Nope
6. No, you just gain stats by gaining skills, absolutely random.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: Fishersalwaysdie ]

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BDR

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2007, 08:57:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>1. How do I eat or drink stuff? I once had a water skin with 3 (pieces, one can only assume) of water inside but I have no idea or to drink it, had to travel out of the map to refresh.</STRONG>

Press e for 'e'ating.  There's no separate 'q'uaffing or 'd'rinking presumably because a) it's simpler and b) the interface is pretty low on the totem pole when it comes to development time (kind of shame, but a testament to the strength of the whole considering it's *still* fun to play and playable).  Also, probably c) bad effects for drinking nasty things hasn't been implemented yet (there is currently a one-line placeholder for trying to drink vomit/eat mud), which means of course that there's no real incentive to be careful about where you put your fingers.

 

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>2. How do you use the wrestling system? I'm always just grabbing and letting people go. Unless I'm pinching them, but that hardly seems to do anything</STRONG>

Wrestling is powerful, but it's not very intuitive and there's not much variety in what you can do.  Grabs can be done by any limb to any limb AIR, and after locking the joint (which should be the first choice in the menu once you make the grab) you can try to break it.  For example, you can stick your upper right arm around a guy's left upper leg, lock his knee, and try to break it.  Usually, the first try or two will only sprain, but after that... well, the limb becomes useless.  Limbs that can be used to attack (weapon-bearing arms) will no longer be used to attack (instant de-dangerizer of anybody not using a crossbow), and limbs that are used for standing (legs, or rear legs for four-legged creatures) when broken result in the creature being forced into prone position (which slows them down a *lot*).  Gouging and strangling are pretty much the only other really notable wrestling moves right now, but to do them you need a free hand (if this is the only person you're fighting or the other enemies aren't nearby, I suggest dropping the shield, but otherwise just kill them with your weapon instead).  Once you have a free hand, you'll have to scroll through the lengthy list of possible grabs towards the ones that actually involve your hand, then go for a head grab if you want to gouge out the enemy's eye(s), or a throat grab if you want to strangle them.  Gouging eyes causes massive bleeding and robs your opponent of sight, and strangling your opponents currently is equivalent actually to ripping them out (Toady compared it to a scene from Road House), which also results in deadly bleeding and also unconsciousness.  If you are a crazy bastard like me (or a Vulcan, depending on who you ask.. >_> ) you can also just hit them once or twice with a weapon, drop something, grab them with a free hand and start pinching them.  It's not as efficient as zombie wrestling, but it works about as well in a... pinch.  You'd be surprised how long you can keep a peasant unconscious with just pinching, and it even trains Armor User skill..

 

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>3. Where can I buy new items, and what should I buy? 2000+ pieces of copper is incredibly heavy. Most towns only have one or two shops, and while sometimes you luck out with iron platemail, most of the time they have the same leather stuff I loot off zombies. I run out of arrows and my bow just becomes useless without anyplace to restock.</STRONG>

1. Try not to carry any money if you can help it.  More than likely, proper exchange rates are low on the development list, and because of that different civs *don't* have exchange rates; i.e. your money will be *worthless* if you travel too far from the civ you got it from.  One idea (that has been suggested before, though I know not whom originally said this) is to buy jewellery with the leftover $ and use that as your currency.

2. One of the issues with this version is the sprawl inherent in human towns; it's apparently possible to get a minimap of the town, but only if you take a quest from the mayor.  Suffice it to say that there *should* be at least one: weapon shop, armor shop, jewellery shop, meat shop, and bar in every human town (I feel like I've missed something [besides the har har obvious apartments], but I can't think of it).  If you can't find it, that doesn't mean it isn't there, though if you get the minimap and it really isn't then there could be a problem (I would kinda like it if there was a chance for multiple stores/no stores in a town depending on what the available materials were, but balancing that will be a nightmare and probably won't happen for awhile).

3. Unfortunately, your arrow problem is a longstanding adventure mode issue.  I have no idea when Toady's gonna fix it.  In the meantime, get another weapon (if nothing else, at least as a backup).

 

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>4. Where can I find item stats? How do I know what does more damage?</STRONG>

DF/raw/objects/item_weapon.txt will give you the basic information, but a little explanation will still be in order even after looking at that.  See, DF has different damage types (as well it should); bludgeon/blunt damage, pierce damage, slash damage, and gore damage (more would be awesome, but for now this is dandy).  Blunt damage is good for the raw power, pierce damage will shred internal organs, and slash damage can chop off limbs/chop up bodies and heads.  Whips (which employ gore damage) are an oddity; they can hit eyes and cause lots of bleeding and pain, but don't really have the damage to compete with other types of weapons (though in comparing it to the other attacks in the game that use gore damage, I realize the potency of those other attacks comes from being able to latch... perhaps if whips could latch and tear off chunks as well, they would be a bit more useful).  More damage is not necessarily better in this game, and different monsters require different tactics to defeat.  Ideally you'd be experienced in all of the weapons so as to be able to sufficiently prepare yourself, but since there aren't any 'safe' training arenas (led by the civilized military groups/towns), that's not a terribly feasible thing to do; there is, however, the option of taking along some experienced friends along to slay the quest monster, though you have to hope that they don't get themselves killed along the way and/or separate from you such that you can't *find* them in time to save their ass from being slain.  Throwing right now, however, is currently insanely broken when it comes to its power and as such actually pwns all other weapon choices (not saying you should *only* throw, just stating facts; feel free to go with something healthy and non-broken, like.. say, an axe!).

 

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>5. Is there any way to reduce lag? It really is a game killer.</STRONG>

Are you using the latest version (33a)?  It solves the Z-Axis lag, though towns are still not fluid for me (could be just my comp, though).

 

quote:
Originally posted by doomlichen:
<STRONG>6. How are stat growths determined? Is it dependent on what skill you level up?</STRONG>

Stat growth is determined by your overall accumulation of skill points as a whole.  If it were possible, and you dabbled in each and every skill equally, it's rather likely you could get some stats even when your highest skill level was only Novice.  Maybe in the future this will change to better reflect the training, but for now, this is how it is.  As mentioned above, *which* stat is upgraded is random.

[ November 04, 2007: Message edited by: BDR ]

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doomlichen

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2007, 03:47:00 pm »

I do have .33a, but the game still lags when I'm in heavily wooded areas. Especially annoying when my perfectly agile talented swordsman sleepsneaks straight into yet another cave spider.
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Syreal

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2007, 08:15:00 pm »

Very informative, BDR, thanks!

Yeah, one time I fought a cave spider, well, I was trashed by a cave spider. Luckily my spearcatchers leaped to my aid and slew the thing by shear force of numbers -- I had 7 or so. (None of them died either, which is always surprising.) I had a mangled leg, I was partially paralyzed, I was going unconscious about every 3 or 4 turns, I was in bad shape! I was trying to crawl to the exit of the cave, when I realized that I could just press "T" and fast travel out of there! So I did and I got to town in one piece.

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BlueDestiny

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2007, 09:21:00 pm »

Don't forget, you can also strangle with upper/lower arms and legs by grabbing their throat. Hands just make it more mentally gruesome.
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Koji

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2007, 01:57:00 am »

I brought a swarm of drunks into a cave with me, and saw two cave spiders as soon as I went in. The drunks charged them and I held back for a minute. They distracted the spiders, then I ran up and cut the preoccupied arachnids to pieces.

I lost about half of my drunks, and was unable to repeat my earlier success when I bumped, alone, into another cave spider.

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Rondol

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2007, 04:45:00 am »

I think I just set a record of sorts -- Myself and a (constantly changing) gang of soldiers managed to kill... Hmm. I don't recall the exact count, but it was (judging by the legends screen, which only records the named ones, which got names by killing my friends) at least 4, probably another 3 or so unnamed for a total of 7, giant spiders. Mostly I was forced to abuse the AI and throwing, moving very cautiously until I saw a spider at the end of a corridor and to the side, i.e.

code:

X@X
X.X
X.X
X.X
..S

From that position they don't seem to move towards you at all, so I would just hurl sand at them until they were mangled enough for me to move into melee. When that failed, I repeatedly disengaged (since my spear kept getting stuck) and did more throwing while the spiders chewed on my "friends". I even had to go on a long trek to the nearest human town to buy a replacement spear after my crappy wooden one got stuck in a spider and I couldn't get it out.

Of course, just because you can kill spiders doesn't mean they can't kill you. A moment of carelessness -- I had been down a corridor on previous visits so I assumed it was safe immediately after a final kill -- and I found myself in the grasp of an unexpected spider, who first tore me to shreds and then destroyed the rest of my somewhat-crippled party.

Moral of the story: Spiders are killable. But if you find a cave with spiders in it... It might not be worth the hassle, unless you're decked out in artifact and/or adamant gear and have a lot of friends. Even then... be wary.

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Burnme

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2007, 04:57:00 pm »

If cave spiders are REALLY killing your adventure fun, then don't hesitate to mod them down a bit. They are contained in creature_subterranean.txt.

Lowering their size, bite damage, or simply removing their web ability should do it.

Personally, I do think a paralyzing bite that does the same base damage as a dragon bite AND webbing is a bit much.

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BDR

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2007, 08:44:00 pm »

Hm, forgot to mention that item material and the quality of the weapon makes a difference in the damage as well.  I don't remember all of them, but unless you mod humans to have steel/obsidian/adamantium available, the best material type you can find weapons/armor as is iron, followed by (presumably) Bismuth bronze, bronze, and copper (I don't quite know what else humans have access to in the current version, as I admittedly haven't played Adventure mode much).  Quality modifiers can be found in the in-game/'?' help section, and one of the nice improvements (which is on by default) in this version is that, if the item is decorated, you can now see at a glance (without having to actually view the item up close and personal) whether it is just superiorly decorated (*<<iron>>*) or if it's actually a superior weapon as well (*<<iron>>*).  Nicely decorated weapons are nice, but they won't hit stuff any better than a non-decorated one, and they're also inevitably pricier.

I really thought you needed a hand free to strangle someone.. hm.  Well, in that case, it's a lot safer....

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Rondol

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2007, 02:22:00 am »

Too bad you can't be strangling one guy while you're hacking at someone else.

Hmm... hostage situation... ?

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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2007, 03:39:00 am »

You can strangle one guy, and hack at another, no problem, as long as you use different arms. Now, "at the same time" isn't really possible with one action per turn, but you can counterstrike all you wish. Also, you don't need to continuously strangle somebody to do damage, you do it only to gain skills.

(Hmm...  hostage situation...  counterstrike...  something's wrong here... :P)

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2007, 01:07:00 pm »

im pretty sure that cave spiders dont feel pain.  they might not bleed to death, either.  not positive on the bleeding thing.  the [nopain] means that they are not stunned or phased when struk, and they dont give in to pain when you do organ damage or hack of their limbs.

this combined with their sheer number of limbs makes them kind of a bitch to kill.

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BDR

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2007, 02:39:00 pm »

They haven't got a [NOBLEED] tag, thus they bleed and will eventually die with limb loss, but it's not very comforting given that they don't feel pain or fear either, which means that they *will* not stop coming until either you're dead or they're too beat to keep trying to kill you.
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Rondol

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Re: Damned cavespiders
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2007, 02:39:00 pm »

They can bleed to death. I've pierced their hearts and then moved away and they have died. But the no-pain thing makes weapon-twisting pretty useless.

Ah well. At least you can still make them vomit, that reduces their danger level somewhat.

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