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[Imp]

also what do you mean "wtf explain more"?? i am always answering all questions, trying to be helpful

The wtf has to do with how confused I am about you/your claims.  Yes, you're answering questions...

Magma, i did pick the right Target =) You don't know everything and i dont plan on telling you =)

Sometimes very confusingly on purpose, and that's fine, but I'm having trouble understanding a lot of your answers.


It's also the outcomes of your actions.  That's really important to me.  What you seem to have been trying to do.

I think you(Oliverz):

1) used an ability that may indirectly confirm me town (and you also may not care at all if I'm town or not, you wanted to find your target, maybe for reasons of evolution, that could be.  I suspect that ability now does other stuff, which may explain why you, if town, are not excited and thinking about who else to inspect so town can find their enemies.
2) Didn't do anything after that yet ability-wise, but protested Mater's extortion somewhat, has a reads list, and is involved in the thread.

But it's kinda like you're off to the side of the game playing with toys while the rest of us focus on the fight.  It's like... dude, you claimed an 'inspect'. and you use it on me then forget to use it again.  Meanwhile the other players are like 'so, you can inspect.  Wtf you doing, you have a power and town needs it used, or are you lying and we should kill you'.  I'm one of those other players, maybe I just speak for myself.

And you're making some really weird statements:

Hector
it is really saddening to see You join a sinking ship =)
We are really sad that Your cool Arsonist Role is getting out this early :/
Any last Will before i put You at L-1? You can hammer Yourself

At that time AP/Hector/not-yet-Toony had 1 vote on him.  7 votes to hammer anyone besides no-elim and none of the OTHER players would have been at L-1 had you voted for them either.  4-mask was the vote lead and maybe you confused him with Hector replacing AP, but arsonist wasn't discussed in connection to 4mask.

So you're either really mixing up stuff or making some impressive vote-manip claims or I'm confused and can't track and going wtf.

It's all good; I'm seriously confused and struggling to understand your motivation, but that's sometimes the game.  If you care to explain and think that helps your wincon, great.

[Imp]

Darn, forgot to add this part in.  Oh well, just 1 extra post :/

Hey, Toons!  Welcome in.  Do you want me to ask specific questions of you, or are you going to get around to what I was asking of your previous peeps and then we chat from there?

Hector, sorry for hard feelings/confusions/issues.  I sure don't mean to drive anyone away, here's to your mental health and enjoyment.

Ooh!  Toons post.

I haven't read almost any of the thread

Got it.  Lemme know for the questions I have outstanding.

My observations (To be honest I made these before Elephant Parade subbed me in):

1. I understand that 4mask was lynched and was mafia.
2. I think trusting Max is generally a poor idea.
3. TricMagic is probably not mafia.

I like Magma Mater here as they feel like a voice of reason, that's my impression.

1) Yep
2) so, like any game.  Town Max is usually bad news for town, just like when Max is any other alignment?
3) Why do you think that?

("I like Magma Mater here as they feel like a voice of reason, that's my impression.")  Why do you have that impression?

I see, Imp is a cop again with a doctor (Vermilion) protecting them... again.

Yeah, this is even more relevant, I even quoted this earlier this game already

At this point I'm hoping Imp is scum so I can enjoy watching them squirm as we make them dance the supercop dance and also not break Hector's post restriction. Continuously having to help the town, until eventually...there's no one left to inspect. Their batteries run out, and the dancing toy stops moving.

Now that you're here I'm almost expecting to get non-consensually bodyswapped, but I'm already in the cop-role so that would really suck.

[ToonyMan]

I'm not an arsonist. I make people laugh to gain energy to do various things. I would have probably picked this role myself if I joined as it's something I know well. I'm slightly suspicious of Juicebox for mechanical reasons, but it's not damning at all from what I can tell.

Oliverz also has a town result on Imp? Anyway.

Imp, why did you say it was suspicious that I (as AnimePigeon) targeted you, when apparently you asked everyone to target you according to Juicebox's summary? Or was it because I targeted Juicebox?

[ToonyMan]

@Imp about Magma:
Magma Mater's posts are easy to read and understand. It looks to me like they're genuinely trying to find mafia via 4mask. I associate hard work with town behavior even if this reasoning doesn't always hold up. Magma is a good player so it's more shakey, however with 4mask being mafia and myself liking Magma's points I think it's okay.

[Imp]

I'm not an arsonist. I make people laugh to gain energy to do various things.

Your abilities as claimed (Or as I understand them, please do clarify however is correct!) seems out of line with the rest of the roles I've seen and heard about.

You target someone, they are told 'someone' tells you a joke and you laughed.

That appears to be your entire actions taken N1 and N2.

It seems tremendously underpowered even as a cover for whatever else you might be doing (hi!  I give 1-shot abilities, and I can also inspect you or someone else, while I give you a 1-shot ability that actually might allow you to do something useful!  So far I've claimed I can give a 'give fruit' 1-shot (nobody's said they got that one 1) and 4mask claimed they got a track 1-shot from me which I confirmed I can give (I hope he didn't lie and his scum team knows I can give something else as a 1-shot, and he just guessed on another possible thing maybe I give so they can get more info).  I've done 4 actions in 2 nights, and some of my actions give others actions)

You appear as the sum total of your role's actions to have made a unsigned message/gained energy.

'To gain energy to do various things' - technically setting the laughers on fire later could be described as energy doing something, so even with complete honesty (ignoring your "I'm not an arsonist") we're still in the 'well he didn't lie, why didn't we see that coming' range if that ends up happening.

If you're town and all you can do is charge up for multiple nights, we better break the bank keeping you alive or something because you gotta be shockingly awesome when ready, because you just don't seem powerful enough for the rest of what I've seen happening in this game.  There's a range, and you're either way under that range (as far under as 4mask, who claimed unable to take action N1 or N2 because his action required a dead person ---- and this is also FoU's claim, FoU got ability-peeked by Tric and it's a not-mod-retracted supposed error that never should have been revealed per FoU and Tric, but it's in the isos STILL without a mod retraction or instruction and it's been days so:

Magma, you're really not thinking thing through. Horror Themed Role = Scum? No, Corpulent Bulk suggests either Fal got hit last night, or that it grows shots with the dead. And Fal denied the former and wants people dead so they don't have another powerless night. Town doesn't really care cause mafia is going to kill people anyway. Honestly sorta SK to me.

K, going to stop you right there magma. First, you're the one who claimed you saw a scumslip and literally sat on it all ay. Second, you do not have the GM-given right to lead town around by the nose. Third, why in the world do you have such a convoluted ability to take actions just to "check" them? I have that ability for free even if it's random which one I check.

If Lurkers want to lurk, I've given them a time limit before I release the info I have. Something you never did. I'm giving town a chance to fess up before declaring them to be scum. Something you also don't seem to want.

...Yep Fallacy is scum by this point. Given the need for dead people leaving them alive is not prudent. Did you roll SK this time around, and why Max over me?

To counter your points Fal... It's a gamble. Two nights gives more information while leaving us at 10, with info from roleflips. Clearly kills happened. And Magma has been giving scum readings since the first few posts in wanting to control, let alone the one post that sucked up all discussion day 1.

As is, I'm fairly sure you're an SK this go around. But you're not actively dangerous unless you're instead a cult leader. You could have fought that with offering up more information on how your role works, but now you're listless and looking for an easy target. Why not target me, the actual SK, instead? Max probably doesn't get the references but my role submission is traditionally an SK.

Fallacy, if Max is mafia, we are already dead. That's just how the gift I gave works in scum's hands. If I was SK, you would have already lost too. I would have killed you last night.

Ninja. Bulletproof Cop is a bit ridiculous Fal. Given we have at least 3 that can't freaking die. And apparently 3 that can gather information. And 3 that can confirm their night action. And maybe 3 that can give people gifts, though at least 2. You can see the issue right?

Ironically, saying that yesterday would probably have resulted in a lynch. Instead we got to CFD range.

Well, Elephant jut sent me an errata saying I got no results from my investigation.

Elephant, behind the scenes, when I mentioned my Auto: shit shit shit shit shit shit

It's okay! Stuff like that happens. Get a spreadsheet if you don't already have one.

FoU, you claimed to be a cop.  Let's say we elim 4maskwolf today.  Will you be ABLE to do cop stuff tonight?

Unfortunately not, not unless two players die this Day. The earliest I'll be able to use any actions is Night 4.

Sucks.

My endless frustration with this game is that no matter how many times I point out the obvious, the scum will deflect and the town won't pay attention.

I'm a cop, Tric. The 'needing people to die' thing is a balancing factor to being able to confirm people's alignments.

I've got some interesting information. First is Fallacy got shot Night 1, or otherwise started with a 0-Shot Bulletproof. As the name is Corpulent Bulk, if the latter it refills as others end up dead, meaning the only way to kill them is via lynch. The second piece of info is something I will hold for now.

Thanks, Tric.

But, yes, since the information is public now, I'll go ahead and confirm that I have this ability, and that it started out at 0 shots.

I'm assuming you didn't actually get that information from an action used on me, though.

But just like 4mask lied about how little they (probably) did N1 and N2, you seem like you're not claiming enough.  Without a redcheck I'd just be talkin' about givin' abilities too, most likely, and I don't believe FoU either.  What I don't know is townie lies or not; and you can be honest and an absolute firecracker when you finish charging up.  I'm just scared you're really super dangerous evil.

I'm slightly suspicious of Juicebox for mechanical reasons, but it's not damning at all from what I can tell.

Imp, why did you say it was suspicious that I (as AnimePigeon) targeted you, when apparently you asked everyone to target you according to Juicebox's summary? Or was it because I targeted Juicebox?

Because I struggle to believe your original predecessor was being completely honest, then also worried it's not a townie lie.  I fear myself and Juicebox might be nice-looking douse targets, or otherwise targets of trouble-to-come.  Tric checked out an ability role name from two people he thought were scummy, near as I can tell, then offered to use it on anyone who wants to be more confirmed ability-wise.  I hunted for people who specifically might need to give items, get items, or specifically get fruit, then shamelessly verified my investigation targets as best I could.  Juicebox tracked people he thought were sus.  AP seems to have targeted people he sure didn't appear to think were scummy, but I'm confused about that - still I'm worried he joked folks that are townie and I'm scared it's evil intention.

Oliverz also has a town result on Imp? Anyway.

Yeah.  Get this:

FoU claims to be a death-locked cop, unable to take any actions until 2 deaths have happened (the ability Tric reported results on needs at least 1 death to have its first shot).

I can investigate 1 per night (or do other stuff if I really think that's more important).

Vermilion claims non-action mech confirmation Imp is town.

Oliverz claims to be able to inspect, but needed to inspect me to 'evolve', which happened N1 he claims (I was targeted by Oliverz N1 for sure).  Oliverz then forgot to inspect or do anything N2, he claims.

We also have Juicebox watching and I confirm it's possible for my 1-shot gifts to allow my target to 1-shot track as well.


So, do you choose to tell us if you used any other abilities yet?  I notice you haven't added to the claims already made, guess I ask you to confirm whatever you choose to tell us about yourself.

@Imp about Magma:
Magma Mater's posts are easy to read and understand. It looks to me like they're genuinely trying to find mafia via 4mask. I associate hard work with town behavior even if this reasoning doesn't always hold up. Magma is a good player so it's more shakey, however with 4mask being mafia and myself liking Magma's points I think it's okay.

Okay.  You mentioned not even reading much, so I'm surprised you want to firmly state you think Tric's town and mater's a voice of reason, though that makes sense if that's what you read and how you feel.

[FallacyofUrist]

Okay. Brain recharged.

4maskwolf's death flip mindfucked me just a teensie wittle bit, but, the game must go on.

Let me map out the setup a little.

In terms of scum distribution, I think the most likely scenarios are either a 3-person scumteam or 2 teams of 2 scum each. Third parties might not be worth speculating about at this point. If there's a cult, we're probably fucked, but everyone's scared to run games with pure cults, so it's unlikely.

So at least for this consideration, let's go with the first two scenarios.

The fact that 4maskwolf, dead scum, cased Maximum Spin as scum, doesn't really change the validity of the points both he and I made. What does matter is the motive, though.

If Maximum Spin is scum, then:
-He could be on the same 3-person team as 4maskwolf.
-He could be on the same 2-person team as 4maskwolf.

4maskwolf reading Spin so harshly certainly works as a distancing play. Ultimately the mind games of the dead aren't worth speculating on. The points are still valid, Spin still reeks, but I know it's a hard sell, and always has been. It's a bit too easy to just dismiss my focus as 'just another obsessive Fallacy tunnel', and the dismissal is very effective as a way to get people to ignore my case. Same for 4maskwolf's endorsement, I imagine.

For the sake of fairness, and because it's slightly more likely of a possibility now, I also have to consider what if Maximum Spin is town.

If that's the case:

His play really, really sucks. For all the reasons I've already pointed out. But, you know, maybe he's changed things up. I unfortunately can't wholly discount the idea.

It's still more likely that he's scum.

He did try to jump off 4maskwolf late during the Night, notably.

All the same, though, he did jump onto 4maskwolf pretty early, relative to the wagon. Maybe he was performing an opportunistic bus, though.

Caveat: with 4mask being scum, the juice-Tric-Max team no longer works.

There's no way all four of them could be scum on the same team, not unless EP is being really mean, which I doubt. There's some mad world where all four of them are scum, on two different teams, but let's not consider that the default, at least for now.

Which basically means I do need to reevaluate and do another look at the voting history. Bah.

Yes, Max may just turn the Day against me and get me killed, something something 'oh look at Fallacy he's all following his scum buddy 4mask's orders'. But if that does happen, I'll flip town, and presumably Spin will go down after that.

Assuming I can trust you all to notice Spin is scum if he does something even more obviously scummy than his entire playstyle up to now.

For the time being, I'm assuming that either 4mask is on a 2-team with Max, or 4mask is on a 3-team that includes Max, but I'm fully reassessing my reads on Juice and Tric, and I'm more open to other possible interpretations than I was before.

[FallacyofUrist]

Nope, missed a possibility.

If Maximum Spin is scum:

He could also be on a different 2-person team as 4maskwolf.

That's also possible, with 4maskwolf distracting us from someone by diverting us to people he thinks are likely to be on his opposing scumteam.

Ugh.

[Magma Mater]

Can you talk about something other than Max man

[FallacyofUrist]

Sure, as long as anyone has a spare daykill.

[Imp]

Hey, FoU(l).

if Max is town, however much you think his play sucks, mine sucks worse.

Any time you want to insult his play, please instead insult mine directly.

I won't enjoy that, but I will dislike it less than I dislike the insults, put downs, and other negativity directed at him or other players.

I'm cool with you being precisely specific, and reasonably polite/feedback-like, if you wanna discuss problems you see with Max's play.  Something like "I'm nervous about Max having voted for 4maskwolf early, then late game when it was really unlikely changing his vote could possibly change the elims, he switched off Max, and I'm glad Mater switched on.  I think Max could have been trying X by doing that, I think Max is thinking Y and trying to achieve Z".

None of that's an insult, and it allows others to have more than raw emotion to evaluate.

[FallacyofUrist]

Okay, for the sake of politeness, let me rephrase.

If he is town, then his Day play is not furthering the town's objectives at all, and is not oriented towards doing so.

That's what I mean, in the most factual sense.

[Imp]

Okay, for the sake of politeness, let me rephrase.

If he is town, then his Day play is not furthering the town's objectives at all, and is not oriented towards doing so.

That's what I mean, in the most factual sense.

Max.  You able to consider and evaluate this observation?  Like, do you think it's true?  If not, can you help identify 3-5 pro-town 'day game' thingies that FoU's just not seeing?

Or, are you specifically and Maxily determined to avoid doing that this game if you can (i.e., FoU's right about that specific detail, for whatever reason you're doing that on purpose if you are, and maybe say why)?

[FallacyofUrist]

It should be noted that when I posed that as a question to Tric, 'how has Max's Day game been pro-town', he dodged the question multiple times, refusing to answer it outright.

It's far from definitive, though. I could see a town Tric think that Max (scum) is town because of Max's ability usage alone.

[TricMagic]

shrugs. Max could be scum, but A: That would waste my action, and B: We're not dead yet. C: Might be my fault Max is a bit distant, though the switch off was somewhat scummy. Not enough on it's own to push for their lynch today.

[Imp]

From my perspective, Max is in a situation this game that I really don't envy.  He's got FoU previously saying all kinda stuff about him that's negative, as well as that he's scum with nearly every post.  He's got (I presume) this extortion thing OR something MUCH more complex going on between him and Mater - though I wonder if the skipped day/night mech might help with that. I presume not though, because what Mater claimed about the timing of day/night phases and the options and stuff didn't seem to disrupt Oliverz's situation.  (Neither of them are reacting the way I would be had I been targetted by that.  That's the equivalent of a somewhat more restrained arsonist that MAY leave the target still able to vote as far as I evaluate it, I cannot express how much I won't be able to express if that ability lands on someone I consider extremely likely to be town and the fact the targeting is reasonable (In that a vig killing or a town arsonist priming picks their top scum sus and that's the best can be done; those targets are 'defined okay' if they're reasonable to sus to that level) + Mater helped mark conf anti-town 4mask) but...

well, the level of calm about that extortion from Max and Oliverz both is surprising to me.  I'm about 'as concerned' about an arsonist as I am that potential extortion chain just growing onwards.  Still, that one's arguably in SOME of Max's control if it puts Max under that level of threat or not.  Tric's oddly calm about it too, since Tric's invested action is potentially at risk too.

Max also claims to be playing a support role this game, I imagine that's not really ideal in Max's view either.  So, I do not envy him at all this game, but I see in him someone who is not visibly moving against town.  He's also telegraphing big things he might do and allowing everyone to prep for and consider massive mech changes, and in the case of 'skip a night' made sure I specifically was aware of at least one major mech issue there (elim twice, while seeing the flip in between - hehe and having time to discuss, nice!) with loads of time to think about.  This is decent 'Imp management' but it's also a decently townie way to handle this stuff, including the non-specific 'heads up' of the skipped/delayed day coming.

So I can see Max as possibly town.  Mater as possibly town.  Toons as possibly town (the targeted laugh and what that exactly means, priming or not, and what is Toons hiding, no clue there at all).  Inspection-wise, I sure am in a target-rich environment.