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[Maximum Spin]

[1] Did you ever say that you thought those two were a scumteam, back during day 1?

[2] Garbage. If you think someone is scum, then you should be doing everything in your power to get them executed. Build a case post! Map out 4mask's relationships!

Spin, your scum play is ass this game, and the only reason it's working is everyone's too distracted by role minutiae to look at the obvious thing right in front of their faces.

Fallacy, I really don't think anyone's going to fall for it no matter how hard you double down. Just move on.

[Imp]

Thanks, TricMagic, and apologies to you and all, especially Juicebox.  Somehow I'd confused Juicebox's report with a second 'TricMagic', which I kept doing through the post until I was working on AnimePigeon's claim, caught myself but didn't catch my mixup from the start.  That should read, and may need further correction, and does it work with bussing is also something I'm not sure - I think that means anyone who targets A instead targets B, and anyone targeting B is actually targeting A - but I think TM/JB name replacement stuff is fixed:


N1, Wolfkey masquerades/busses Magma Mater and Crystalizedmire.  Juicebox targets CM, so instead gets results from MM.  MM targets Oliverz, so that's what JB sees, thinking it's CM's target.  CM targeted MM, would that force CM to target self thus fail to steal any ability?

N2, Wolfkey roleblocks CM.  CM targets Oliverz, but is roleblocked, again getting some kind of failure to steal.

If I understand right, CM and JB may have completely been honest about the results each reported regarding this.  None of the claims seems anti-town to me, any of it could be, but this can all be fine.  I've seen town CM steal from reasonable targets; I've been town and stolen from targets I knew were town (I had a robin-hood-like ability and could give stuff really well too, but still, I am aware it can be townie to be able to steal and to actually steal, even from known town).  Additionally, Wolfkey's choices are odd but not necessarily horrible.  Wolfkey, would you tell us why you picked these targets?


My confusion about TM/JB also triggered when I first talked about ignition concerns (a previous post, error is in #405, I'd said watch Tricmagic and me both dying - but it's Juicebox and me who AP targeted for laughter.

Read Imp's post in full..
Magma, you're off the list for now. The free thing once you have enough abilities is in line with a shackling, but you're still not getting anything from me. Mostly cause I do not want to turn off the gift I gave to Max. I'm guessing the decision gets made during the day though, so if Max has used it by then perfectly fine giving you the expended ability for you to check.

4mask, hat say you to Imp's claim? You're the last one to do so. Wolfkey, generally good to tell us you can't really play or not during days due to RL stuff, but thanks for clearing up the actions last night. You've cleared Crystalizedmire of doing the kill at least. Probably.

I want to make sure everyone is aware of this, regarding MM's discussion of what to do with the extortion:

As I think you're Town and don't really trust Tric, I'll give you an ability if you visit me this Night.

Might not be a good ability, but it'll have some utility.

Sweet, I'll take it. It does have to be non-innate, hope that won't be a problem. Thanks!

Unless something changes, it appears we have MM and FoU with a plan to wipe Max's abilities and Oliverz' abilities, if nothing messes with the plan.

I'm sitting here thinking about Vermilion's claimed abilities and my claimed abilities, and thinking that anyone antitown that can manage a redirect of any sort is gonna want to ensure this extortion somehow hits one of us or someone else even 'better' to their goals if a 'better/more threatening abilities' player seems to exist.

I really hope Magma Mater freely holsters this ability and from what he said it sounds possible to not use without harm to him.  But if nothing changes, everything we've been told about this is true, and FoU and Mater do this without interruption, Oliverz and Max will both experience something incredibly close to this:

... Okay, hey guys,  I, fortunately or unfortunately, have the world's strongest ability.  I require everyone to make a vote on who to use this on because the ability is too strong to remain in my possession, lest the Mafia or other nefarious persons pilfer this.

I will thusly claim.

I can remove the role of another player once per game.

Yes, this is permanent.  Yes, this is busted.  No, I couldn't not claim it.  No, I can't save it for later.

Please pick who should be the target, because they will be effectively removed from the Night game.

Web: in my opinion you should pretend to put it to a vote, then use it arbitrarily as you see fit.

I considered merely choosing the second most voted, but if the stakes aren't revealed, people won't know what they're playing for.  To use an action of such detrimental effect requires the target be warned that their enjoyment will be, in part, diminished.

I am currently wielding a power that could kill fun.

It is imperative that those under its gaze know the destruction it might wrought.

[FallacyofUrist]

Yes, It Really Is Spin And juicebox:

Disclaimer: my confidence in my scum reads varies. I'm very confident Spin is scum, but only moderately confident juicebox and Tric are scum.

Since juicebox and Spin haven't really interacted directly much, we need to look at more incidental evidence.

Especially since juicebox's own meta trends towards lower activity and engagement, so the same logic that caught Spin won't catch them as easily.

Which makes it all the more ironic that juicebox's play is better than Spin's here - not in terms of activity level, but in terms of scum-huntiness.

You rolled scum again, didn't you, Fallacy.

I think he did

Can't really derive too much from a start-of-game humor post chain, but juicebox did post the very next minute after Spin posted, here. Posting so quickly could be influenced by having a pre-existing attachment to another player.

Show of hands on whether I should do something really stupid and dangerous that MIGHT win the game?

Do it

Unconditional support. Granted, it's still incidental evidence.

Crystalizedmire: They've posted here and there, but I'm not impressed with their posts either, scumlean

Maximum Spin: Max is very hard for me to read, and the scarcity of their posts makes it even harder. Null

Back during juicebox's reads list Day 1, juicebox rates Crystalizedmire as a scum lean for poor post quality, but if juicebox was actually investigating Max, they'd have seen that Max's own post quality was through the floor and digging into the dirt - terrible, in other words, yet juicebox rates Max as null.

Not really a fan of the Max lynch, I'd prefer Wolfkey over Max

This is the real clincher - at the time of this vote, there were three votes on Maximum Spin, three votes on no execution, and one vote (Max's) on Wolfkey.

If juicebox didn't want Max to be executed, the best thing for them to do would be to vote no execution. Instead, they vote Wolfkey, Max's own target, despite the futility of that. Shows some very significant bias.

Additionally, on juicebox's reads list, as mentioned, Max was a null read. The town mindset would be to try and steer the execution towards a scum player, not another null player.

Why Wolfkey?

Shouldn't you want to vote the player you think is scummiest, not the player who's less active?

Wolfkey for the no lynch, honestly.

Sigh. CFD, here we are. The final countdown and no good idea where to go. Unvote.

People need to commit yeah?... No Lynch might as well given th complete lack of information. Why not.

Wolfkey for the no lynch, honestly.

Sigh. CFD, here we are. The final countdown and no good idea where to go. Unvote.

People need to commit yeah?... No Lynch might as well given th complete lack of information. Why not.

It's not ideal - I'd rather lynch Magma or one of the do-nothings - but it could work really well with my plan here... IF I can trust the rest of town to do a good job. No Lynch

Two posts in a row. Sus.

[REDACTED]

Unfortunately, any evidence that juicebox may have been voting for no execution is dead and gone, for game-rules reasons.

Fallacy, I really don't think anyone's going to fall for it no matter how hard you double down. Just move on.

You aren't even responding to my points, Spin.

The worst part is just how effective that strategy is. The Jim Groovester 'ignore it and it'll go away' strategy.

I'll vote you every single page if that's what it takes to get town attention on your case, Maximum Spin.

[TricMagic]

Fal, if you want to do this you're going first, then Max.

[TricMagic]

Not to mention you'd need to ignore Imp's result on 4mask for that conclusion..

[FallacyofUrist]

Fal, if you want to do this you're going first, then Max.

Why do you trust Max so much, hmmmm, scumbuddy-of-Max~?

Not to mention you'd need to ignore Imp's result on 4mask for that conclusion..

You're ignoring Max's ridiculously scummy behavior. The presence of inspection abilities doesn't excuse us from having to investigate scummy behavior.

It's like Magma and I are the only ones to care about that.

[FallacyofUrist]

Fal, if you want to do this you're going first, then Max.

Okay, to make it even more clear how absurd this is, you're saying that of two people, one of which has scumhunted heavily and has been engaged with the game regularly, and the other of which is has spouted vague role-related nonsense, got rid of an entire Day phase, and hasn't actively tried to hunt scum during Day 1 at all, and during Day 3, hasn't attempted to use behavioral evidence to vote scum at all

Town should vote... the player which has been regularly and heavily hunting for mafia players?

Is that what you're saying, Tric?

[TricMagic]

Counterpoint, we're not dead yet.

... That really is the whole crux. If Max was mafia we would be dead at the moment. And Imp did get an alignment inspect of 4mask as mafia. Why do you want Max dead so soon? As it stands you don't want Max around while you charge up, which feels really SK to me. Cause if Max is around your chances of victory plummet whether they're town or scum.

If we're talking about scumhunting 4mask hasn't been doing it either, during either day.

You know, there's a non-zero chance it's a Max-juicebox-? scumteam. juicebox just voted for Max's voting target, and they've been interacting with each other weirdly since game start. I'll dig up evidence once I'm home from work.

I noticed a weird early interaction but came to the opposite conclusion: I think at most one of them is a wolf, because I find wolves don’t usually talk to each other like that.

Specifically it’s their interaction on like page 3 where they both ask if… I think it was you? were scum. I don’t think either of them is the type to push that hard on a weird early game meme read with a wolf buddy, even accounting for the fact wolves can’t talk right now.

This is the same scumteam you pushed yesterday apparently. Other than that they have one thing, but no scumhunting as you'd put it.

Okay lunchtime over I read up to about page 13.

Short version.

Fallacy is fine.

Vermillion is fine for now.

AP and the wrong Wolf both scream “newbie”, or at least coming from an insular community with an unusual playstyle, so they are going to be a nightmare for me to solve. If I had to pick one to shoot it would probably be Wolf because while AP’s read list is nonsense it’s at least something. If this were a game with ITAs I’d happily toss these two on a shotlist and never look back.

Juice I felt underwhelmed by but just made a big post I have to read. Will reevaluate after but my initial thoughts are “could be a wolf”.

The way Oliverz writes inflicts psychic damage on me so I’ll have to reread later to get an opinion.

CM is basically fin, I still think their initial posts aren’t wolfy.

Max has mastered the art of saying little while posting. While his post on Fallacy was hilarious there’s nothing there that screams “town” to me.

So, ae you a team member of 4mask instead of SK? If so I feel a bit sorry EP messed things up, scum just seems cursed these days.

[4maskwolf]

K, going to stop you right there magma. First, you're the one who claimed you saw a scumslip and literally sat on it all ay. Second, you do not have the GM-given right to lead town around by the nose. Third, why in the world do you have such a convoluted ability to take actions just to "check" them? I have that ability for free even if it's random which one I check.

If Lurkers want to lurk, I've given them a time limit before I release the info I have. Something you never did. I'm giving town a chance to fess up before declaring them to be scum. Something you also don't seem to want.

...Yep Fallacy is scum by this point. Given the need for dead people leaving them alive is not prudent. Did you roll SK this time around, and why Max over me?

Town roles absolutely can also depend on dead players to work. Source: my role is almost entirely reliant on dead players to the point where I didn't even do anything N1 and wouldn't have N2 if I hadn't been gifted a one-shot.

Response to Imp in this post since it's too big for me to bother editing. I received a one-shot track, which I used last night. At the point in my readthrough I'm at I'm not super interested in claiming the results right now since they're not particularly indicative of the player's alignment.

Sorry I had a couple of super busy days and honestly just didn't want to engage socially yesterday to recharge. Am back now.

Are those colors indicative of your wolf and town reads? Because your wolf reads being entirely AFKs and Mater is NAGL.

My main issue is not lacking the time to post, it's not knowing what to post.

Most honest stuck wolf ever?

I still am holding 4MaskWolf as one of my Main Town Leans.

Given how baseless this is I'm inclined to wolfread it. Especially with the information that is eventually revealed. Though their mech seems to pan out.

I ate every single one of the nightkills, and Imp is town. I have reason to suspect that Oliver and AP are as well, due to the effects of Imp’s role.

For Clarity, I can confirm what Vermilion has said here.

I am under the belief that all four of us involved with this (Me, Imp, Oliver, Vermilion) are good.

So I will be using this to create a POE.

What makes you think that Oliverz is town?

I can confirm that I saw you visit me, and that you told me a joke.

Since Juice claimed I confirm I tracked juicebox to AnimePigeon N2.

So AP's action claim seems to check out if nothing else.

My results on what I am very sure is 4maskwolf's alignment:  red and mafia specific.  No idea if there's multiple mafia teams or if I can even get a specific evil-team name from someone who hasn't successfully targeted me yet (maaaybe I can't even if they have, but I sure get more info when I inspect those who are 'among the counted', I just haven't inspected a 'counted' mafia alignment yet).

First of all, why are you not voting me if this is the case.

But I actually believe you because I know my role, and I'm kicking myself for not claiming the absolutely bizarre alignment fuckery that is my role, I assumed it wouldn't be relevant until I had a chance to act at which point it would be more useful to the town. Because now my claim is going to, at best, cause chaos.

I start the game as a miller and what alignment I peek as changes based on who I target with my day action or any night actions I gain with it. My day action only works on dead players so I have not gotten a chance to use it, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work with outside gifted actions so unfortunately I can't be inspected right now to determine juicebox's alignment.

[FallacyofUrist]

Counterpoint, we're not dead yet.

... That really is the whole crux. If Max was mafia we would be dead at the moment.

Unless of course you're also scum and you're lying about that. Can't forget to take that into account.

And Imp did get an alignment inspect of 4mask as mafia.

And that by no means reduces Max's own scumminess. There's enough redirects floating around that it could easily be a result of someone else, plastered over 4mask's face.

Why do you want Max dead so soon?

... Because he's my scummiest scum read? Do I need another reason?

As it stands you don't want Max around while you charge up, which feels really SK to me. Cause if Max is around your chances of victory plummet whether they're town or scum.

I submitted an incredibly SK-themed role, for your information. So naturally I got Town as my alignment. My luck is apparently willing to make exceptions to me being always scum whenever it's ironic enough.

As per Beginner BYOR 2.

Once Lidku flipped I guess none of us considered he would have been bold enough to crane his scumbuddy first, huh?

Fallacy should've known, he's been scum with me before.

You assume I know how to play town.

This was my first town game in forever. I doubt I'll be town again unless I submit a similarly ironic role next time, unfortunately.

Which isn't how probability is supposed to work, but you know, this is the first time I've been town in a webadict game in years, so I think I'm allowed to say that probability is biased against me being town.

I managed to be Town in that game, by submitting...

"It is, naturally, only possible for you to be our rogue agent, Fallacy. You cannot talk your way out of this."

"Oh, but you are most mistaken," FallacyofUrist replies, hanging from the rafters. "You know that I am codename Always Scum for a reason. I may be the false flag operative's leading student, but that does not make me the one who murdered webadict or all the others. But, that is always to be my fate. webadict has once again cursed me."

FallacyofUrist has been executed.

FallacyofUrist was Always Scum (Town).

TricMagic dies during the Night.

TricMagic was Beginner Mafia: BYOR Edition (Town).

Game Over. Maximum Spin and Lidku (Mafia) have won.

Always Scum.

[4maskwolf]

Alright mostly caught up now.

I'm utterly baffled by the way Imp played that reveal.

Why would you assume I was "hiding saying shit shit shit", how was I supposed to know I was peeked. The only information I got given was that I received a one-shot track. Which you should know, it's your role.

Why, the moment I claimed I received the one-shot on N1, did you not just claim your peek. I've already given the mechanical confirmation that was needed, there's no need to slow role the reveal, it doesn't really benefit anyone.

Like the bizarre timing and accusations around the claim feel like a wolf rolepeeked me, saw I was a miller N1, and wasn't sure if they should go for the kill until I was afk for several days.

[TricMagic]

The main issue is you're trying to lynch someone I've slotted into my Town box. You're going to need far more mechanical proof to get them out of that.

As for 4mask, Lynch the Millers. You should have claimed that Day 1. Too late now?

Ninja. Imp's the type of person who will rag things out until all the information is on the table and a plan is made. Consequently, them not voting you immediately is to give you a chance to convince them or new info to pop up. But as it stands, there is no mechanical proof you are town. Since Juice Claimed, I Tracked is a very easy claim to make after everything. It adds nothing new. More importantly, what in the world did you do N1? You don't have an alibi that works since you claimed last.

[FallacyofUrist]

The main issue is you're trying to lynch someone I've slotted into my Town box. You're going to need far more mechanical proof to get them out of that.

Why is Max a town read to you, Tric? How does his Day-game activity support such a read?

[4maskwolf]

The main issue is you're trying to lynch someone I've slotted into my Town box. You're going to need far more mechanical proof to get them out of that.

As for 4mask, Lynch the Millers. You should have claimed that Day 1. Too late now?

Ninja. Imp's the type of person who will rag things out until all the information is on the table and a plan is made. Consequently, them not voting you immediately is to give you a chance to convince them or new info to pop up. But as it stands, there is no mechanical proof you are town. Since Juice Claimed, I Tracked is a very easy claim to make after everything. It adds nothing new. More importantly, what in the world did you do N1? You don't have an alibi that works since you claimed last.

I didn't... claim to track Juicebox to mechanically confirm me?

I claimed to track juicebox to provide a second point of confirmation to Juice's claim.

[Imp]

Why do you trust Max so much, hmmmm, scumbuddy-of-Max~?

Me, me too!  Scumbuddy of Max yeah yee-haw!  Ignore all the people claiming mech knowledge of 'Imp is town' and all Imp's behavior for a sec, I bet a bunch of us are 'scumbuddies' with Max, more than possibly can exist in the game!

I actually counted my posts to make sure I could spare one for this.  I certainly can, wheee!  I'm getting over my fear of post restrictions, thank everyone for the education!

But FoU, I actually caught a clear and strong reason for TricMagic to trust Max, TricMagic openly, serialkiller-like (or mafia-like) says he gave Max a way for Mafia to win the game, and Max didn't use it.  TricMagic wants Max to use it, apparently, with this complex discussion of if and when TricMagic would accept Mater's extortion.

This is scaribad to me.  You and TricMagic both - what sane player wants to give up an ability for no reward at all?  This is about either making Mater happy or secretly empowered (TricMagic, did you catch that it's the EXTORT ability Mater said became free once he gets 2 abilities he didn't start with?  It's not a new unlock, it's just do the Extort for free, presuming Mater's being 100% honest, which... few choose to be completely honest and Mater already and clearly shows he is a master of information control) or wiping out specific others' abilities at the cost of 1 lost (and for all I know, the 1-shots I give stick around as 0-shots after use, and could be used to pay this before or after use, I have no clue).  But I do believe all or extremely close to all of what Mater said about that get 2 abilities thing is true and I think there's stuff he didn't say that I might not be so comfortable with if he did say it.  That's fine (we all control info), he could even be town and after the game I might be excitedly applauding how well he played for town! (Y'know, even if he's not town he's doing a decent-ish job of playing for town, even if it's 100% for his benefit as much as it helps town).  But OMG you two.  You're like massive risk takers, omg.

FoU, how often can anyone catch Max from play, especially early?  We'd do better remembering Max love love loves wants to be a cult leader (which FoU has to know even if not remembering, or Max made all that up about the promise from mod FoU about how if there's a cult leader it would be Max that game and nobody revealed the truth about it even after the game was over) and this is a form of BYOR and it's totally possible that Max requested something cult-like.  Doesn't mean he got it, but cult is possible and Max helped set up an extended night and we saw no deaths.

I'm not super scared about that, because there's AMPLE evidence there's mafia in the game, I'm staring at a inspect result that says mafia in red and a person who inspected as town is telling us that he has an ability that told him he blocked some sort of nightkill twice, so my 'omg it's a cult' reflexes are not really screaming, but maybe there could be a cult too

Max could be anti-town.  I'm not convinced either way, and as Mater was jumping on me D1 about my reads, gosh I'm really unclear about them aren't I?  Well, I want who I inspect to be as hard to predict as possible, while still being clear about what I see and think are risks and problems.  But I see so much to be concerned about.

FoU, you claimed to be a cop.  Let's say we elim 4maskwolf today.  Will you be ABLE to do cop stuff tonight?  If you inspect Max and get a town result, does that just mean he's also a godfather in your worldview and crusade goes on?  If so, please consider inspecting people you sus as his partner, because if you have an inspect and you're willing to believe it about someone, use it on someone you'd believe the result might be true on, please.

I adore FoU, and kinda view what FoU's going after Max this game as something like



And I'm like, FoU should have fun!  And I hope Max can have fun too with it, if he wants to.

But I'm not convinced.  Because I'm scumbuddies with Max?  Maybe!  Here's my padded arm, FoU!  Wanna go for me too?

Consider it townie practice, yeah?  We gotta find the real evil, not just the one we wanna see die because whoops, our wincon might need that person alive.  We gotta figure out how to catch the scum and release the town.

Or pick someone other than me.  Or keep chewing on Max, whatever fills your eager heart with joy and serves your wincon.  But you want practice as town, right?  Vary your technique when you're ready, and remember that it's easy for evil to tunnel, and as players get experienced as town, they start to look broadly and vary their ideas.

Imagine a world where we see Max flip, and Max was town.  Dang.  Okay, so... unless you're some wincon that just needs to see Max flip, you gotta do something else, and if you're town, that's a downer to see a Max townflip (trust me on that.  Max is useful if he's not anti-your-wincon.  I want ally-Max alive, he increases the odds my side wins; it's only enemy-Max I want dead or even depowered.  I don't know what he is this game, but if he's my enemy, where's the pile of bodies or converts or doused folks or whatever, that he's connected to?)

I'm eager to see what you do, FoU!  Keep having a game of your life, and enjoying the heck out of it, even if you're chasing good guys with all your intense heart!

PPE:  Ooh, stuff since I started to type this!  I'll still send it, I still have plenty of posts!  But I haven't more than glanced at the 7 posts above this, whee for the next!