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[hector13]

This won’t help us find scum Imp.

Statistically speaking we won’t eliminate scum D1, and that’s borne out in my experience.

I am saying if there is a vig, you are a good choice for shooting. We cannot choke the day with discussion about this, please, for the love of all that is good. My position is clear. I don’t care about you beyond it being good strategy to shoot a survivor.

Please stop.

[Maximum Spin]

Pretty sure Max’s last game was Bastard.

Yo, Max is this game Bastard?

What makes a game Bastard? (Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of bastardry?)

I don't consider it to be. You win by killing scum and not killing town, for certain valid definitions of same. You're voting to lynch somebody, not to give away free doughnuts. In other words, the structure is that of an ordinary mafia game. But that doesn't mean I can't have some tricks, either.

[AnimePigeon]

[Spoilers]

Anyway, Imp is not going to claim survivor if Imp is town, that would be off the wall bananas.

I'm not this time; I am survivor exactly as I claimed.  But there are circumstances I can imagine where I would, as town, claim survivor.  Has a lot to do with my exact role and what I think I know about the game and others' roles, if I might do that.

My position is thus: I would prefer not to use the town’s only guaranteed means of eliminating scum on someone who may not be scum, hence my desire to see Imp shot.

We're in a Spin game.  We've already seen elim not kill anti-town in a Spin game D1 (created the scum we faced for the rest of the game) and D3 (the SK had 2 lives, and even elim just removed 1).  We have history with stories of Rasputin who survived being poisoned, shot, then falling out a window and into an icy river, with footprints leading away suspected to be his and no body ever recovered.

A means to kill is exactly that.  Be it elim or other.  Whoever can and chooses to kill should kill for their side's benefit, of course.  Only someone who needs a survivor dead should try to kill me through any means.  If you have actual enemies and are not just an eater-of-survivors, I recommend you don't waste your time, though we Spin so sure, someone could have a weakness or immunity to normal death.  Anything is possible when we Spin as far as I know.

a healthy respect for your ability to pick up on small details and pull players into the discussion. As town, that could create a formidable towncore... I'm interested in seeing how it works for a survivor.

Presuming you're not already informed you're on Hector's team, and presuming you're interested in my reading of others, there's something quite off about how Hector's playing - it's hard for me not to scumhunt, I like doing so and it's natural for me.

Are you planning to scumhunt D1, or will you be content to simply survive?

I love playing.  I will be playing intensely this game, but hopefully not so intense that it lowers any player's or Mod's enjoyment.  Reading people is usually a part of the game and playing it.  I don't find any role or alignment boring or a reason to play less (post restrictions and such can indeed change how I play).  As survivor, I can see if there's alliances offered in any way, but it's all out in the open.  Playing for town is how it goes, far as I know.  And I'm fine with that, in my core of cores, I'm town no matter what my role.

But just because Hector wants me dead, and that is my beef with him... I urge anyone not known to be Hector's allies to really look at what Hector's moving towards.  Eep.  Can't wait to see what everyone's alignments right now are, after the game's done.  If Hector's town I'm really, really, really surprised (I'm not really surprised if we do or don't have town).

I read further and you want to kill Hector because he suggested we get rid of you. Heh. I understand your motives, but he's right that you're a great vig target and an awkward elim (unless you're very hard not to scumread).

Spoiler: long and philosophical; reminder how imp plays as town and survivor (click to show/hide)

I'm confused why I'm a great vig target.  When I am town (I know a lot about being town) and I have a kill, I want to kill anti-town.  I will kill them through any means.

I will get them to kill themselves (Fallacy's BYOR 6, D5, though the person who went off was also town and eagerly and willfully died to kill the known town truecop, and was unstable enough to lose the game for town if town; town eventually won days later).

I will try to lead hunts on their multiple lives or point out they're perfect abduction targets to aliens (Spin's Supernormal D3) and die to attempt to roleblock them, as a survivor that can come back to life, in a desperate bid to try and help town get 1 more day for my res and town's chance to win (Same game final night).

I will rally self-voting town and town feeling shut out and lost and work with 3P to get dangerous scum elim D1 (NQT's BYOS 1).

What I don't do is pour resources into 'waste'; I move towards my wincon.  I'm a great kill for anyone who needs me dead.  Anyone who thinks I think my optimal strat is, as a non-survivor, to claim survivor D1 in a Spin game, have fun with that.  If I'm not actually survivor, I'm probably town trying something really intricate for very good reasons.  I cannot currently think of even 1 reason why anti-town me would think it more useful to claim survivor D1 than try to blend.

But that comment's really just so I can quote myself later, some future game where I can say 'So, the second time I Spun, I was a survivor that claimed D1, and explained I could see myself doing that as town even D1, based on my role.  Well, it's D4 now, and I rescind my survivor claim; I am true town, always was this game, and here is what is going on and what I recommend we do to win..."

That won't be this game.  I am true survivor.

Also, we saw Webadict try that D2 of the first Spin game; he came back from a requested D1 death as solo scum with a convert and knew he looked 'wrong' (he'd been dead) and he said "I'm just a survivor".  That was webadict.  I play extremely differently, I view other choices as optional, for all web made that work that game.  That game I was survivor and played totally pro-town; TricMagic was town there and may have some memory and opinion of that - of how deeply pro-town I go when allowed to choose.

Y'all should kill anti-towns unless you're anti-town that has reason not to.  I get sus that I lie; instead I'm again survivor in a Spin game.  Some of you probably need to do something about me; you're not town.

Look well, town, if there are town.  At those who are alarmed and surprised there's an Imp Survivor claim.  Hector himself, my action last Spin the final night was to die to roleblock him, to try and give town one last chance to win, to try and revive in time to win with them.  It failed utterly; my intention and devotion was unwavering.  That game as Survivor I even had a convert; I could convert only 1 townie, or roleblock a non-human and die if they were stronger than myself.  I resolved I would use it only to 'rescue' the last town, who was certain to lose, allowing them to win with me even though that was the only town I could save.  Instead, I used it as a roleblock of a stronger power; I as survivor died to give town and myself another chance to win.

If you're antitown and gotta 'fix' me, you're welcome.  I told you true what I am.  If you can win with me, great.  I learned a lot since we last played a Bay12 game.  I've been scum and won as scum, and I have a lot more knowledge about playstyles and reading folks.  I'm no longer the Imp that faced Webadict the Terrorist and said 'I, survivor, will die to stop you that town may have a chance'.

Though I think my survivor claim drops my convert value, if there's conversions.  And anti-town would surely love to see town resources used to kill me or any other non-their-team.  It's also considered scummy to focus on 3P; those of you who are town, good luck and use everything well.

[/Spoilers]

Unvote Hector13

I know I don't know you too well yet Imp, but I know we likely both make big plays at times to try and increase our interest in games.

I have been known to claim a Seer Role whilst being a Martyr, which would allow me to protect the real Seer. Anything to make games more interesting, complex and intriguing.

Given this Set-Up, I'm not going to claim any specific role, but I do think it would be nice to investigate further into TricMagic & CrystalizedMire - not really heard much from either of them.

[Imp]

Pretty sure Max’s last game was Bastard.

Yo, Max is this game Bastard?

What makes a game Bastard? (Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of bastardry?)

I don't consider it to be. You win by killing scum and not killing town, for certain valid definitions of same. You're voting to lynch somebody, not to give away free doughnuts. In other words, the structure is that of an ordinary mafia game. But that doesn't mean I can't have some tricks, either.

My desperate hope is that we're in a not-not-not-not-not-quite bastard game.

If not this one, some other, some time.  I wanna see a lot of Max's tricks, I now know this (last game I was confused by other things).

This won’t help us find scum Imp.

Statistically speaking we won’t eliminate scum D1, and that’s borne out in my experience.

I am saying if there is a vig, you are a good choice for shooting. We cannot choke the day with discussion about this, please, for the love of all that is good. My position is clear. I don’t care about you beyond it being good strategy to shoot a survivor.

Please stop.

Stop the flip what?  I'm playing.  So are you.  I'm not trying to kill anyone's fun, but let's suppose this:

7 players

1 survivor
4 town
2 scum

Let's say we elim 1 town D1.

Let's say survivor is shot N1.

Now, we have a D2:

3 town, 2 scum.  Game continues, town could lose.

Different event:

Let's say we elim town D1.

N1 another town is shot.

1 survivor
2 town
2 scum

And you can freak but at least town tried to win, and might still.  Because this is the path to a town win:

N2 a scum is shot.

1 survivor
3 town
1 scum

If I'm honest about my survivor claim than killing me, instead of someone who could be anti-town, is not optimal for town.

Town needs anti-town dead.  Town does not need me dead, and town killing me to try and keep numbers of non-town low is a town trying to lose.  Town needs to kill enemies of town.  I am not that.

Elim, vig, whatever, they're kills.  Kill the people your wincon need dead, or try your best.

What's wrong with my thinking, Hector?

[EuchreJack]

7 players

1 survivor
4 town
2 scum

@Imp: Isn't that a bit scumsided?

[EuchreJack]

CrystalizedMire[/b] - not really heard much from either of them.

Agreed. I am going to defer to my other head whether or not to vote, but I morally support this pressure vote on CrystalizedMire.

[Maximum Spin]

By the way, I'm going to ask everyone to avoid, to some extent, putting things in spoiler tags. There have been a lot of spoiler tags in this thread so far, and, while they have their uses, I generally want to keep it easy to scan past posts, including quotes.

[hector13]

Town allowing non-town to get to end game is an utterly bananas position.

I have zero interest in discussing game theory, beyond taking a position on how to deal with survivors.

You are ACTIVELY hampering scumhunting by attempting to force a discussion that will not help us find scum SOLELY because I have put forth an idea that you losing the game will help town.

Again, I am somehow being suspect by suggesting this is why neutrals are not pro-town.

[Imp]

7 players

1 survivor
4 town
2 scum

@Imp: Isn't that a bit scumsided?

I think so.  The last Spin we had started with 100% town (and that's also complete imbalance, yeah?), then went to levels of imbalance I cannot define but embrace and accept.  To attempt to atone for my atrocious and now-regretted behavior I will not opine on the sided-ness of the last Spin game.  Except to say I enjoyed most of it incredibly much and hope there are more Spin games of all types, and I'll just play them, not judge them.  (I may say "I didn't like this specific bit" some day, but I intend to post-restrict myself rather intensely in that direction.)

But the math is similar, I believe, no matter what the composition of teams is.

Someone who needs a survivor dead is the only person who benefits from killing me through any means of death.

That could be someone who just needs deaths.

Could be someone who needs numbers of players weaned down to equal their team that they know I'm not on.

A town enemy, especially a teamed town enemy both knows I am not on their team and would surely love to have town use kill power on me instead of maybe landing a kill on their team.

It's error-filled thinking, or actually anti-town, to want an actual survivor killed because of 'survivor'.  Every resource those pro-town use that does not and can not remove anti-town hurts town.

[hector13]

Nobody questioning Imp’s motivation regarding only positing game theory that benefits her wincon.

Imp is not town, can we stop interacting with them please? They’ve made it abundantly clear they only care about surviving, not finding scum.

They’ve realized their only position now is to not annoy town or scum enough that they decide they’re better off without Imp. Trying to convince town that it’s better to keep them alive because they’re not scum, and not scumhunting for the scum.

Are you all really not seeing this?

Absolutely, shooting scum would be better for town. Survivors are a good alternative, case in fucking point.

[hector13]

CrystallizedMire, as I have evidently reached the same conclusion as NJW and would really like to actually see some scumhunting other than theorizing over how non-town third parties are good for town.

[hector13]

I say reached the same conclusion as NJW, I just can’t be bothered chasing up pigeon on ignoring what I said, but it is noted and possibly notable.

[TricMagic]

It blows my mind people always wonder why I don’t like neutrals smh.

...

[TricMagic]

Imp: Being Imp
Hector: talking about Survivovr claim and why we should shoot them.
AnimePidgeon: Mostly here for the ride

Have I seen a SofaJack today? checks. No I have not. SofaJack how are things in Hydraland? Enjoying your scumchat?

I've got no comments on contraband other than waiting to take my shot till near end of day.

[hector13]

Prove me wrong bro.

PPE: oh you have it.

Just shoot me now please, I have a weekend I want to enjoy.