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[hector13]

hector doesn’t want a survivor around ‘til endgame because they can win without town.

From the MafiaScum wiki:

One nasty strategy at early ELo as Survivor is to vote a Townie immediately and let the scum perform an extended quickhammer for the win. The existence of this strategy means that the presence of a Survivor means that ELo comes a day early, and thus that killing them is not a miselimination and typically good for the town. As such, Towns typically act as though Survivors were anti-town, and will kill them if their role is discovered. In particular, claiming Survivor before ELo is a bad idea.

This is why I don’t want a survivor, even one with pro-town meta, at the endgame: you’re not town.

However, I would rather not waste the vote on that, as it is usually the only surefire way of dealing with scum, which you are not, assuming truth in your claim.

[hector13]

Also you’re not posting too frequently if you’re replying to people.

[AnimePigeon]

Any tips or tricks on this forum?

I'm playing on my mobile for reference.

[Imp]

Also you’re not posting too frequently if you’re replying to people.

That's good to hear.  I'll still try to post less than I otherwise would.

hector doesn’t want a survivor around ‘til endgame because they can win without town.

From the MafiaScum wiki:

One nasty strategy at early ELo as Survivor is to vote a Townie immediately and let the scum perform an extended quickhammer for the win. The existence of this strategy means that the presence of a Survivor means that ELo comes a day early, and thus that killing them is not a miselimination and typically good for the town. As such, Towns typically act as though Survivors were anti-town, and will kill them if their role is discovered. In particular, claiming Survivor before ELo is a bad idea.

This is why I don’t want a survivor, even one with pro-town meta, at the endgame: you’re not town.

However, I would rather not waste the vote on that, as it is usually the only surefire way of dealing with scum, which you are not, assuming truth in your claim.

"for my morale but I suppose this needs to be corrected"

Spoiler: I guess this could use correcting, hmm (click to show/hide)

Umm.  So.  That's like a policy lynch.

I happen to be a player.  A very uncommon sort, and enjoy picking how I win.  Any of us can do anything; even go get modkilled on purpose for ruining the game.  You don't seem scared of that; you might want to reeval the odds you think you have in your head on me actually doing that.

I can and will make a case that I think there's a real chance Hector is anti-town.  I haven't committed to being pro-town yet, but it's definitely an option for me.

But I think what may be going on is that Hector wants to look nice and town, have some good control from the start, establish both a pro-town seeming stance and get people already agreeing with and following Hector from beginning of the game;

Wants to try to guide town vigs and other powers towards a non-scum;

Maybe other stuff I don't see.

Now, I'm more interested in removing someone who wants Imp to lose than any other motivator, but this player may actually be scum.  And my pro-town roots are deep deep deep, for all I have been scum and learned some of those lessons, and have sympathy for scum now too.  But anyone who moves for my death this game has a problem named Imp.

And yeah, if there are any town, this really could be anti-town here in Hector.  I expect you guys to deal with that as you choose, any and all of you.

But if you are pro-town, Hector.  Might want to read the player as much or more than you read mafiascum.com.  There's a reason why I love Bay12's mafia games more than any other that I've sampled, and I've now sampled.  I play as I please, and given multiple ways to win I sculpt towards what I want.  This time, I want to win in a way that many others enjoy, if I can find it.  Mean to look for it.

Any tips or tricks on this forum?

I'm playing on my mobile for reference.

Spoiler: tips and tricks compared to MU (click to show/hide)

You'll find this forum's features primitive compared to MU.  Nothing automated, we hand-count votes, which are ideally the only thing you use red for; so use orange or any other color to emphasize 'evil' or whatever, if you're willing.

Additionally, votes usually are expected to be outside of a spoiler, so Sof's spoiled vote may or may not be counted.

I'm not even sure if this game has Hammers, Maximum Spin is his own set of rules, as is every mod here, but Max may be a bit more confusing than most; ask him anything.

We can't 'quote' DMs from the mod - that includes screenshots, but we can paraphrase if we choose.  We can also ask the mod public questions right in thread, and anything in thread can be quoted.  We're not supposed to have any private communication between any players until the game's over, though I suppose if some people have a reason to talk privately they can ask the mod for an exception for reasons or something.  Any Masonchat, Scumchat, whatever will have the mod in it; not sure if there's a hydrachat or if those two, 'treated as 1' actually get to have a true private chat (I'd be surprised).

There's no 'iso' feature, but you can generally get close to an iso of any player by clicking on their name to the left of their post, then selecting 'show posts'.  Those are ordered from most recent to older, and few post a lot in other places on the forum while in a maf game here (Whoops, I might....) but you can hopefully quickly scroll past any non-game posts, the thread they're in is listed at the top.  I can't think of other tip/trick/rules you may need, and I don't use mobile so no ideas there.

[sofanthiel]

Imp, revealing your survivor status in such a manner certainly does dissuade the killers from killing you; I'll give you that!  Why waste a perfectly good 9×18 Makarov on someone completely neutral to our cause?

I literally only need to be alive at game end

Do I believe the claim?  I'd have to consult with myself to give a straight answer here.  Even if taken at face value, I find the possibility of a 5-player day 2 with you and two bandits at the helm very alarming, but wasting a seat on the gulag train just to send you away would be almost as gloopy as those capitalist bratchnies doing whatever their more cruel version of that is.

Probably not since votes shouldn’t be made in spoilers :p

Ah, the mistake is mine, my dorogoy droog hector13!

Would you prefer this knowledge to be kept secret? Why/why not?

From what I viddy, it doesn't seem that contraband, as unauthorized as it may be, has any direct ties to the capitalist banda operating in our good residential unit; conversely, there is at least one role, outlined as perhaps not entirely town-adjacent, that might take special interest in the subject!

[Maximum Spin]

I'm not even sure if this game has Hammers, Maximum Spin is his own set of rules, as is every mod here, but Max may be a bit more confusing than most; ask him anything.

Oh, yeah. I didn't think to mention it because I usually do no hammers, but since I DID say this game would have (otherwise) standard rules, and hammers are standard rules here -- Hammer at 4.

[sofanthiel]

Unvote!

[hector13]

Also you’re not posting too frequently if you’re replying to people.

That's good to hear.  I'll still try to post less than I otherwise would.

hector doesn’t want a survivor around ‘til endgame because they can win without town.

From the MafiaScum wiki:

One nasty strategy at early ELo as Survivor is to vote a Townie immediately and let the scum perform an extended quickhammer for the win. The existence of this strategy means that the presence of a Survivor means that ELo comes a day early, and thus that killing them is not a miselimination and typically good for the town. As such, Towns typically act as though Survivors were anti-town, and will kill them if their role is discovered. In particular, claiming Survivor before ELo is a bad idea.

This is why I don’t want a survivor, even one with pro-town meta, at the endgame: you’re not town.

However, I would rather not waste the vote on that, as it is usually the only surefire way of dealing with scum, which you are not, assuming truth in your claim.

Oh my goodness you're wrong in so many ways I hardly know where to begin.

One thing I would like to ask - nicely, I might add -  is not to put relevant things in spoilers, it's tricky to respond to them.

Umm.  So.  That's like a policy lynch.

I explicitly and specifically said the best way of dealing with a survivor is not to lynch them, so no.

I happen to be a player.  A very uncommon sort, and enjoy picking how I win.  Any of us can do anything; even go get modkilled on purpose for ruining the game.  You don't seem scared of that; you might want to reeval the odds you think you have in your head on me actually doing that.

This has nothing to do with you as a player. I understand it's not a pleasant thing when someone says because you are something you have to be ended, but given the scenario I outlined in the previous post about survivors at endgame, I fully believe the presence of a survivor is a detriment to town the longer the game goes on.

I can and will make a case that I think there's a real chance Hector is anti-town.  I haven't committed to being pro-town yet, but it's definitely an option for me.

You haven't committed to being pro-town and my voicing concern about you is supposed to give me a real chance of being anti-town? I'd like you to explain that one, if you don't mind.

But I think what may be going on is that Hector wants to look nice and town, have some good control from the start, establish both a pro-town seeming stance and get people already agreeing with and following Hector from beginning of the game;

Wants to try to guide town vigs and other powers towards a non-scum;

Maybe other stuff I don't see.[/quote]

I mean if you want to analyse everything in the worst possible way, sure.

I like this though, throwing shade at me to make other players wary I'm playing the puppetmaster because I'm a strong player and have form for it.

However, I haven't really got people following me.

My play in regards to you:

• I point out you claimed survivor.
• I point out the best way of dealing with survivors is through means not lynch-related and not let them get to the end game.
• You say I must be scum as a consequence.
• I outline a scenario in which a survivor can lose the game for town in the endgame.
• You continue to insist I am scum, even though you admit you haven't committed yourself to being pro-town.

Does that sound right?

Now, I'm more interested in removing someone who wants Imp to lose than any other motivator, but this player may actually be scum.  And my pro-town roots are deep deep deep, for all I have been scum and learned some of those lessons, and have sympathy for scum now too.  But anyone who moves for my death this game has a problem named Imp.

Well, no. I have a problem named "survivor", and you said before you are not pro-town committed yet.

And yeah, if there are any town, this really could be anti-town here in Hector.  I expect you guys to deal with that as you choose, any and all of you.

But if you are pro-town, Hector.  Might want to read the player as much or more than you read mafiascum.com.  There's a reason why I love Bay12's mafia games more than any other that I've sampled, and I've now sampled.  I play as I please, and given multiple ways to win I sculpt towards what I want.  This time, I want to win in a way that many others enjoy, if I can find it.  Mean to look for it.

All I've done is outline my preferred means of dealing with survivors, with like, 65+ hours of D1 remaining. We haven't even had a post from all the players yet.

If you want to think I'm scum on a point of strategy, that's your prerogative. I would personally rather not choke up D1 discussion on how to deal with survivors and why it is or is not scummy, but you do you.

[hector13]

Imp, revealing your survivor status in such a manner certainly does dissuade the killers from killing you; I'll give you that!  Why waste a perfectly good 9×18 Makarov on someone completely neutral to our cause?

They aren’t completely neutral though; they’re basically a plus one for both sides, until they decide which side they want to be on.

Are you confident Imp will choose your side?

I literally only need to be alive at game end

Do I believe the claim?  I'd have to consult with myself to give a straight answer here.  Even if taken at face value, I find the possibility of a 5-player day 2 with you and two bandits at the helm very alarming, but wasting a seat on the gulag train just to send you away would be almost as gloopy as those capitalist bratchnies doing whatever their more cruel version of that is.

This is why I suggest the best course of action for dealing with the survivor is to shoot them, because then we can use the lynch on someone else.

Probably not since votes shouldn’t be made in spoilers :p

Ah, the mistake is mine, my dorogoy droog hector13!

Would you prefer this knowledge to be kept secret? Why/why not?

From what I viddy, it doesn't seem that contraband, as unauthorized as it may be, has any direct ties to the capitalist banda operating in our good residential unit; conversely, there is at least one role, outlined as perhaps not entirely town-adjacent, that might take special interest in the subject!

I don’t like the way you communicate here, it is super unclear.

Do you mean there is a role that you are aware of beyond the Wreckers that is interested in contraband, or are you only talking about the Wreckers? ‘cause that’s a subtle and important difference in light of a survivor claim.

Anyways, yeah, I get why you think I’m anti-town here, because it’s textbook rolefishing. However, the abilities are essentially tradeable so it’s a good idea to know what’s out there, in case there are abilities that clash (it’s Max, some abilities will clash) and we can work to avoid accidentally blocking or redirecting or whatever actions to the wrong people. On top of that, the contraband doesn’t disappear on death, so the scum can’t eliminate it from play.

Even if they find themselves in possession of contraband, it can be used day OR night, not both, so that means they can only mess with it if they guess which phase it’s used, assuming no innate abilities. Which isn’t necessarily a good assumption, but we do know that at the end of the day, according to the OP contraband carriers must pass it off to someone of their choice.

One glaring hole in the idea is that the scum may have an ability to intercept any particular movement of contraband, which isn’t ideal, particularly if they can also choose who the contraband goes to come day end.

I would consider that risk to be worth being able to mechanically solve the game, but I also don’t want to have to actually make an effort during the day because I’m lazy, so I’m biased. *shrug*

So yeah, with that in mind maybe the question I should be asking you is if you think that knowledge would help scum or town more, and why you think that?


As an fyi, I won’t be available much over the weekend, but I’ve got Imp talking (I know that’s not much given they talk anyway, but maybe they wouldn’t be talking like this without me, ken?) and have a mechanical plan for success that can at least be discussed.

@Pigeon Imp covered a lot for tips,  but you can get an iso on people (in reverse order of posts) by clicking on the blue Search button immediately below the Forum Guidelines link at the top. Fill in the precise user name of the player you’re wanting to check, change the search order to most recent, then expand the “choose a board to search box”, click check all to unselect everything, click mafia to only search the mafia boards, and then click search.

You may only get a page of it though, the forum’s been borked a bit since a user called greatorder asked for their old account to be deleted. That should be okay in a smaller game like this.

[Imp]

This is why I suggest the best course of action for dealing with the survivor is to shoot them, because then we can use the lynch on someone else.

This question isn't really for Hector, but who cares if Hector answers it.

Why would a supposed townie want a survivor shot (presumably by a fellow townie) instead of someone expected to be scum to be shot?  If the scum are rapidly killed, there is no 'end game'.  Scum need to plan to reach endgame, and survive it.  Town can hope and work to catch scum early and never reach mylo/lylo; getting there doesn't require waste of town resources on survivors.  With only 7 of us, there's probably no advantage and only risk for town to use killing power on anything town doesn't need to kill.

If there's even town.

I got told what townwin would be; I wasn't told if there's any town.  Neat wording, has my skin itching.  Hector's got it itching more.

I will feel a lot safer if we elim Hector today, based on what has happened so far.

But I ask you guys to wonder, why does a townie want a survivor killed?  I don't think town does.  I think anti-town, perhaps anti-all-others-not-expressly-on-Hector's-wincon Hector wants a shield.  I think elim Hector today is very likely to be a really good move for pro-town folks, even though we haven't even heard from CrystalizedMire, NJW2000, or Sofantiel's other hydra head yet.

I was shown town wincon.  I know I can win with it (I hope some town exist).  I think from Hector's reaction, I can't win with Hector.  Again, wow.  What town wants kill power used on a survivor, not on probable scum?

He's not doubting me.  He's recommending not elim me - he wants someone else elim.  He wants control of kill power too.  I think he's most likely scum or whatever this game's equivalent is - I think that he TMI knows I'm not scum, that he thinks I'm probably 3P, maybe survivor, and wants me out out out.  I see no real doubt in him, just intense interest in a incompatible-with-Imp wincon.

Good luck all.  I hope others join, when it's time, in voting Hector, though I'm interested in what everyone says and does this day.

[hector13]

Apparently in two posts I’ve entirely convinced Imp I’m scum, before everyone else has posted, based on a point of strategy that is disadvantageous to Imp only. Further, I should just link to the MafiaScum wiki that says survivor is mafia-sided.

Anyway, Imp is not going to claim survivor if Imp is town, that would be off the wall bananas. This means Imp is a survivor or they’re scum. I don’t need to concern myself further than that, both threats (presumably) end upon being shot.

My position is thus: I would prefer not to use the town’s only guaranteed means of eliminating scum on someone who may not be scum, hence my desire to see Imp shot.

I don’t care about contraband beyond the potential to mechanically solve the game, and hoping someone can shoot Imp. Reveal what you know about it or don’t, it matters not a jot because I’ll have to analyze and post either way.

Regardless, Imp has already outlined here their only concern is for Imp. This has to be accounted for before it damages the town, and I outlined why here. Town aren’t perfect, we all know this, why is thinking about the endgame before it happens suddenly scummy?

Everything that needs to be said about this has been said.

If the rest of D1 is talking about Imp’s survivor claim and an established NAI strategy for dealing with it, then please shoot and lynch me because I want no part of it.

[EuchreJack]

My head hurts, but Hector might be onto something.

In Bay12forums Mafia lore, there is a history of alleged survivors either being mafia, mafia-ally, or anti-town. 
Assuming there is no more scummy targets, a survivor is a valid lynch target.

I've really got no qualms about revealing at least some parts of the SofaJack Contraband, but I should probably get the permission of my Better Half first.

[NJW2000]

Greetings comrades. Glory to the cause!

Looks like we may have a team of Wreckers and maybe a survivor.

Thoughts?

There's definitely an anti-town faction, presumably wreckers. Hard to say what else though... I do feel like the wincon is intentionally slightly vague.

NJW who would you give your contraband to: someone you felt was scum, or someone you felt was town?

Town if it was at all useful. Why would you consider giving contraband to scum?

NJW2000, I am incredibly excited to play our new game together.  You remain one of the players I think very highly of and watch closely.  I'm so glad I have, probably, no reason to try and pin you this game as the last ChooseYourOwnSpheres game made me worried I must.  I can't wait to see what you do and how you do it!

That's very kind - and I'm sorry about losing my rag in the CYOS. That game left me with a healthy respect for your ability to pick up on small details and pull players into the discussion. As town, that could create a formidable towncore... I'm interested in seeing how it works for a survivor.

Are you planning to scumhunt D1, or will you be content to simply survive?

Edit - I read further and you want to kill Hector because he suggested we get rid of you. Heh. I understand your motives, but he's right that you're a great vig target and an awkward elim (unless you're very hard not to scumread).


Hector13: you were interested in non-elim related ways of getting out a survivor. Do you have any reason to believe those exist?

Hmm... one way or another, this little tangle between Imp and Hector is a smokescreen.

AnimePigeon: Several posts, no real contribution. How do you usually find scum, and how do you plan to do it this game?

[AnimePigeon]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Imp, revealing your survivor status in such a manner certainly does dissuade the killers from killing you; I'll give you that!  Why waste a perfectly good 9×18 Makarov on someone completely neutral to our cause?

I literally only need to be alive at game end

Do I believe the claim?  I'd have to consult with myself to give a straight answer here.  Even if taken at face value, I find the possibility of a 5-player day 2 with you and two bandits at the helm very alarming, but wasting a seat on the gulag train just to send you away would be almost as gloopy as those capitalist bratchnies doing whatever their more cruel version of that is.

Probably not since votes shouldn’t be made in spoilers :p

Ah, the mistake is mine, my dorogoy droog hector13!

Would you prefer this knowledge to be kept secret? Why/why not?

From what I viddy, it doesn't seem that contraband, as unauthorized as it may be, has any direct ties to the capitalist banda operating in our good residential unit; conversely, there is at least one role, outlined as perhaps not entirely town-adjacent, that might take special interest in the subject!

I definitely feel Imps Survivor Claim is Bold but not typically out of character for them. So the correct approach would be to take the claim with a pinch of salt.

They could easily hinder Good or to a lesser extent Evil. Or the Survivor Claim could just be to hide there actual Role be it Good Special or Evil Special or even a Generic Role.

[AnimePigeon]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Apparently in two posts I’ve entirely convinced Imp I’m scum, before everyone else has posted, based on a point of strategy that is disadvantageous to Imp only. Further, I should just link to the MafiaScum wiki that says survivor is mafia-sided.

Anyway, Imp is not going to claim survivor if Imp is town, that would be off the wall bananas. This means Imp is a survivor or they’re scum. I don’t need to concern myself further than that, both threats (presumably) end upon being shot.

My position is thus: I would prefer not to use the town’s only guaranteed means of eliminating scum on someone who may not be scum, hence my desire to see Imp shot.

I don’t care about contraband beyond the potential to mechanically solve the game, and hoping someone can shoot Imp. Reveal what you know about it or don’t, it matters not a jot because I’ll have to analyze and post either way.

Regardless, Imp has already outlined here their only concern is for Imp. This has to be accounted for before it damages the town, and I outlined why here. Town aren’t perfect, we all know this, why is thinking about the endgame before it happens suddenly scummy?

Everything that needs to be said about this has been said.

If the rest of D1 is talking about Imp’s survivor claim and an established NAI strategy for dealing with it, then please shoot and lynch me because I want no part of it.

Happy to be proven wrong, but so far the content I have seen from Hector13 has come across very much as someone trying to Town Tell everyone. Whilst this could be seen as a Town attempting to find and rally the other Townies into exiling the Survivor Claim or being generally cautious regarding the claim, I generally get the feeling it comes from a Scum Perspective of saying what they believe would make them appear the most Townie given the current limited developments we have to go off.