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[EuchreJack]

So, while there has been good commentary of late that raises some good concerns about America backsliding from democratic institutions, I am lacking for advice on increasing democratic institutions.

Unfortunately, most of the scholarly work seems to focus on tiny countries_{comparable to the US, which is most of them}, rather than larger countries (Mexico?).

So I've created this discussion thread based upon the Athenian Revolution.

If the Authoritarians are going to organize to destroy Democracy, people have to start organizing to empower and protect Democracy.

[Maximum Spin]

You know the Athenians revolted in favor of populism, right? Conservative, aristocratically-aligned writing of the time continually satirizes the democratic system and its major orators as populists.

[MaxTheFox]

Populism then =/= populism (and specifically right-wing populism) now. I normally hate the "ideologies change" argument but it's true when ~2500 years have passed.

[Maximum Spin]

Populism then =/= populism (and specifically right-wing populism) now. I normally hate the "ideologies change" argument but it's true when ~2500 years have passed.

Honestly, no, a lot of the things they complain about are about the same, really. It's not a 1:1, but it's surprising how topical it can feel.

[EuchreJack]

Point taken.
While I do think populists are a concern driving us towards Authoritarianism, they are a different ideology/movement/philosophy.

[Maximum Spin]

Well, to answer your actual question, I guess the most important place to start is: how do you define "democracy"?

[Killgoth]

Just a minor point: the United States has never been a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with the specific intent that mob-rule not be allowed.

[EuchreJack]

Well, to answer your actual question, I guess the most important place to start is: how do you define "democracy"?

I generally look towards democratic institutions, like an independent judiciary, check & balances, peaceful transitions of power,, and other things. What are your thoughts? My headaches are coming back, help a brother out here?

Just a minor point: the United States has never been a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with the specific intent that mob-rule not be allowed.

Yes, and how does one counter "mob-rule"?

[Maximum Spin]

Yes, and how does one counter "mob-rule"?

Well, the founding fathers did it by restricting the vote to landowners, for example.

Well, to answer your actual question, I guess the most important place to start is: how do you define "democracy"?

I generally look towards democratic institutions, like an independent judiciary, check & balances, peaceful transitions of power,, and other things. What are your thoughts? My headaches are coming back, help a brother out here?

I'm not sure what any of those have to do with democracy. Lord knows the ancient Athenians did NOT have any of them.


The point I'm making here is that "democracy" is a moving target. The way "democratic institutions" has been defined is... specific, and not really related to the idea of democracy, on purpose. Ultimately, the problem of "democratic backsliding" is always about the people wanting something you think - rightly or wrongly - is wrong, and the only solution is to either disenfranchise or convince them.

[Frumple]

If the Authoritarians are going to organize to destroy Democracy, people have to start organizing to empower and protect Democracy.

Nonsense so far aside, that's basically it. Local organization needs to uptick, folks need to actually vote and agitate for expanding democratic institutions and franchise, scum against those needs to be kicked out of or prevented from holding office (e.g. don't fucking vote for anyone still in the GOP and actively campaign against them when they do shit that restricts democratic participation).

Invest more time and effort to community outreach, mutual aid, and so on, everything that would make it easier for people to participate in the political process. What legislative or electoral efforts that can be supported* should be supported. Folks that refuse to do so or actively undermines them needs to be terfed out of reach of levers of power. There's more than just one or two organizations out there trying to agitate for and enact expansions to the franchise; donate time, money, or votes towards them. So on and so forth.

We have to make it abundantly clear democracy is actually something we give a shit about, basically. Feet on the ground, ballots in the boxes, and other feet held to the fire. It's a challenge when a great deal of the country's always been abundantly clear they don't, but not an insurmountable one.

... also don't get distracted by people trying to derail you with pedantry and crap. There's specific issues stateside that are obvious and don't need you to define shit: Expanding mail-in voting, for example. Adding voting locations, helping with outreach and transit (corollary to that, taking a theoretically metaphorical pitchfork to bastards trying to prevent it, since it's one of the areas the GOP's been attacking in order to make voting harder for people). Focus on that stuff instead of getting lost in the weeds. Outreach, education, expansion, access, accountability for those that work against it.

*One example would be the felon enfranchisement voted on down in Florida a bit back... it just needed to be paired with also possibly literally bouncing out every single sack of shit that helped end-run around the mandate it set.

[EuchreJack]

I'm actually gravely concerned that mail-in voting could be used to increase voter fraud.

I mean, if I can see how easily it could be abused, I'm sure shitbag politicians can abuse it.

Now, I'm a bit pissed at the Republican for alleging voting fraud without any facts to support it,
and I'm mighty pissed at the Democrats for alleging no voter fraud exists without any facts to support it.

Is it any wonder that nobody cares, if nobody is willing to treat the voters as adults, entitled to actual facts to support such fundamental arguments?

[McTraveller]

Nobody bothers to look up facts these days. They just want some media personality to confirm their suspicions.

You can't actually "fix" democracy by starting at the top. You have to start with the masses. This is why it's Difficult™.

It's why, arguably, all countries should be limited in size to no more than about 10 million people.  Once you get too big, you have to split.  Take a lesson from nature; there is probably some analogy of the square-cube law associated with populations: Once you get too many people, there isn't enough "surface area" to get the nutrients in and the garbage out.

[EuchreJack]

Unfortunately, I live in New York, where Voting Fraud was invented, so I can hardly advise on making voting less fraudulent.
But maybe other states have less issues with voter fraud.

And no, I ain't making it up. Every 4 years, there is a news article about the machines in New York "not working right".

[a1s]

Why was this moved? Is a game in the works? *excited noises*

[MaxTheFox]

Why was this moved? Is a game in the works? *excited noises*

Liberal Crime Squad!