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[Elephant Parade]

EBWOP: Obviously Max has been pushed least of all. I don't know why I left him out; probably because I have a read on him.

See, this is the type of error of logic I expect from EP early and mid game, but without the explanation - or any awareness that he's made an error at all.  EP seems to me to be very smart, but not very self-aware, especially not of the errors of thinking EP tends to leap into.  I'm basing that on meta - I've read, for example, EP's and Jim's mason chat in FoU's last game.  The level of arrogance, brilliance, and jumping to wrong conclusions for iffy or off the wall reasons - that's what I expect from town EP.  And not much self checking, I sometimes see a form of 'what am I missing' or 'why doesn't this make sense' - but I don't see careful thought about what others think, or going back and finding errors in his own evaluation.

What I think I see here is EP talking to folks he knows are town, and trying to please, correct, fit in, then in response to the same thing he doesn't wanna give Max - probably scum!EP.  I'd vote EP, but we have like 2 days of possible talk time left, everyone's got close to 40 or more messages left, and a vote on EP takes him to L-1.

That's funny, I've always thought of myself as a chronic overexplainer who makes follow-up corrections a lot.

Let me explain my thought process for unvoting Tric, which I only implied at the time:
1. There is only one Evil player in this game.
2. Therefore, dishonest townreads are not a concern: if A townreads B, either A is town and their read is genuine, or A is scum and B is certainly town.
3. That doesn't mean town!A's read of B is correct. In this case, however, I have a history of scumreading town!Tric, a player people notoriously read via meta, and Maximum Spin, a player who's played with Tric (including scum!Tric, I assume) much more than I have, seems to think they're town.
4. Therefore, I'm probably barking up the wrong tree and should refocus.

I don't think I'd have reversed course based solely on another player's read for any other combination of players in this game. I can't prove that, but I invite you to look for other places this game where I try to please people.

[Quarque]

Rereading the thread, the Quarque-CM interaction has actually been explained to Tric multiple times, which makes it even more bizarre that he thinks it's a slip. This doesn't change my read, but sorry for pestering you to explain it to him, Quarque.

No problem.

Rereading the thread, the Quarque-CM interaction has actually been explained to Tric multiple times, which makes it even more bizarre that he thinks it's a slip. This doesn't change my read, but sorry for pestering you to explain it to him, Quarque.

Quarque:

Elephant Parade: What players here do you think are easy to read?

Sofanthiel: What's your first feeling about Crystallizedmire here?

Maximum Spin: In how many private chats are you?

Crystalizedmire: As what alignment do you inspect?

Crystalizedmire, any particular reason why you ignored the question? I noticed you were online.

Why were you so hung up on CM not immediately answering an RVS question?

I'm averse to quoting large chunks of text, but you're right that it can lose context to snip.
I was trying to pressure CM a little there.

unvote

Imp, I'm inclined to vote you when the deadline gets close. The better I read your posts, the more I start to believe you are guilty of precisely the thing that both of us accused Elephant of. I also don't like your going off on a tangent with the ability shenanigans. That's a great way to take attention away from the thing that matters.
Remember what I said once about golden mountains?

@Crystalizedmire: I can see where your imp town vibe is coming from, but ask yourself, would scum!Imp really act different from what we've seen so far?

[Elephant Parade]

Unvoting and FoS-ing with intent to vote strikes me as an unusual combination when the FoSee only has one vote on them. What made you pick it over a simple unvote-and-vote?

[Quarque]

As Imp keeps reminding us, hammers must be avoided.

I'm only half sarcastic here - due to timezones, there is not an ocean of opportunity for me left to make corrections in the remaining daytime.

[Elephant Parade]

There are 30 hours left in the day. That's at least a small sea. In any event, you'd only be bringing them to L-2, which isn't exactly the danger zone.

[Imp]

EP-related stuff:

I invite you to look for other places this game where I try to please people.

Well, I have.  A number of us seem quirky this game, you too.  I really want to hear more from Max, before we run out of time.

But among your 'seems odd, people pleasing?' comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Out of respect for your beliefs...

Before Imp answered, my prediction was, "As useful as any other." I think that was borne out.

While you vote here:

Pretty much everything TricMagic has posted has been egregiously silly. His logic for Quarque being the Chosen One doesn't make sense. His logic for lynching Called Shot targets doesn't make sense (a Called Shot is only somewhat stronger than a regular mafiakill, being both unblockable and untrackable, so a player being a probable Called Shot target should only be a minor factor in whether we lynch them; if we lynch a player because they're Called Shot-eligible, we're essentially doing scum's job for them). Going through with a lynch on the Chosen One makes no sense because they can self-out (in fairness, Tric might have missed that).

I know this is within Tric's meta but he could be faking it and, quite frankly, he needs to develop a better one.

There's more samples in this game.  Your wording in generally seems unusually careful compared to previous games I've had with you.  You're second guessing yourself, you're highlighting reasons you could be wrong, you're showing TM more than one out.

Not voting Evil doesn't help town either, cause we can't win the game. If someone has knowledge they shouldn't day 1, that is reason to be suspisous. Unlike most games, there is only 1 scum here. So we can't check for teams.

This is true. I just disagree that Quarque has displayed that knowledge.

[snip]

I don't have an opinion on the debacle surrounding you other than that Tric is silly, which is unfortunate given that it contains most of the non-RVS content of the thread (hence my lack of real reads).

You should probably explain to Tric why you questioned CM's claim of being "Town."

MS: Do you actually think I'm the Chosen One?

The above stuff, again, a feel to it, careful, thoughtful; reads to me of probing for acceptance.  It's really different from how you've played in other games I've seen you as town in, when you were not talking to people you knew were town - people you actually suspected.

Here's a few randomly grabbed posts of town-you talking to people you're not masons with:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not accusing you of being an SK because I don't think you are. You're just barking up the wrong tree.

Imp: I already said this, but you post too damn much. Part of the reason I scumread Toony is that it feels like he's barely played the game this Day, but I also don't really feel like playing the game, because it's starting to feel like you're the only other player. And the problem isn't that the other player is you, it's that there are supposed to be NINE. Post less.

OK I'm bored of waiting and I'm not sure it matters anyway. Sofanthiel, I don't like that you were active at the start when you were screwing around, continued to be active while you were defending yourself from an active wagon, and quieted right down after people moved on to other targets. I think that's a scummy activity pattern: active when it provides little information or keeps you alive, quiet otherwise. Do you have a better explanation? What are your reads?

Not claiming yet.

I've found Egan sussy from the start so I'd be down for their execution. Add me to the list of people who don't understand why sofanthiel and NQT, sussy lurkers extraordinaire, would be mafiakill targets. I could almost buy that Egan did it on accident... if I didn't already suspect them.

I am wary of a possible webadict/ToonyMan scumteam but otherwise do not find webadict particularly suspicious right now.

Town you talking to everyone, you usually seem more abrasive, less self-aware, less careful and thoughtful.  What bugs me is I keep feeling like you know you're talking to town, I don't feel like you're talking to people you actually suspect.

I was trying to pressure CM a little there.

unvote

Imp, I'm inclined to vote you when the deadline gets close. The better I read your posts, the more I start to believe you are guilty of precisely the thing that both of us accused Elephant of. I also don't like your going off on a tangent with the ability shenanigans. That's a great way to take attention away from the thing that matters.
Remember what I said once about golden mountains?

@Crystalizedmire: I can see where your imp town vibe is coming from, but ask yourself, would scum!Imp really act different from what we've seen so far?

I'm not averse to pressure.  It's a bit hard for me to see scum!qua pushing and taking risks in general, part of why I'm weaklean townish on Qua, despite some oddities.

Qua:  Me though, you're reading me null, right?  Town Imp and scum Imp would act the same, so who the heck knows which Imp they're talking to?  That's a flavor of null.  I'm not going to stress too much this game, I don't have a role I am desperately eager to play (see FoU's game for that; NQT's game for one I loved so much I wanted the game to end because I feared the evil so much more than I loved my role).  If we have to mislynch, I'm not a terrible loss either, I'm just the loss of any townie, not a loss like web was FoU's last game - I'd have to get super lucky to actually help solve this game mechanically, my role's maybe best played like a vanilla town - and that's part of what my sharing and wondering is about.  I sure could whammie someone scummy, and really not sure if I should.

So I'm not going to oomph much, just do my normal 'So, my death doesn't end the game, let's make sure town's as set as possible for the eventual win'.

Golden mountains, I think I remember you mentioning that, but I can't remember where.  A quick search of discord and this forum, still no idea.  Just to mention 'tangents' and 'taking attention away from more important stuff' - are you with that?  I don't think so, but sheesh.

However, drat it, we need stuff to read.


And I want to read more from Max (as well as the rest of us, but especially Max).  I'll provide topic (I have, more than one relevant - reads, mechanics), we can discuss other topics.  But we have a game to solve, and I'm annoyed some of us are initially townreading or otherwise softballing Mr. Nearly-Silent.

Imp, this right here is town!spin. Laser focused and no-nonsense. Could in principle be fake, but that would be a first.

I don't really like MS guessing I'm the Chosen One because it seems like a strong scum move (if I am, he can go "look, my reads were good"; if I'm not, he can go "I was just generating discussion/muddying the waters for scum"). I can see how he would genuinely arrive at that conclusion, though, and I'm not going to scumread him when he's only posted twice.

Max is probobly town, probobly. No nfo, so a wait and see approach. He's right that we should be hunting with limited posts.

I don't want to explain my read on MS because that would make it easier for scum!MS to be townread. I'll say that I read him as town, and I'll explain once he posts more, whether or not I change my mind.

I don't like that you cropped out the part of my post immediately after that where I interrogate Max, even if I've since backed off on him. I don't know if it was on purpose, but you're essentially stripping my post of the answer to your question:

I'm guessing this interrogation was this, which... speaking of softball:

MS: Do you actually think I'm the Chosen One?

I feel like I shouldn't answer this because I don't want you to get killed, but if I were scum I'd take the called shot.

OK, thank you. I'm glad you were willing to immediately nail yourself down when asked.

But maybe I'm clueless, and you clever folks have a great way to evaluate Max through this method and its continuation into... something readable.

[Crystalizedmire]

Crystallizedmire: I really don't like these two questions:

MS: Do you actually think I'm the Chosen One?

I feel like I shouldn't answer this because I don't want you to get killed, but if I were scum I'd take the called shot.

Why do you think that Elephant Parade is chosen one? If you won't answer that, why do you think that stating that you think that Elephant Parade is chosen one will cause scum to believe that?

You should probably explain to Tric why you questioned CM's claim of being "Town."

I thought it was pretty obvious, Town in this game is called "good". Also, sorry about thinking that sof is in this game, I haven't played any mafia games on this forum without him.

Might as well blow another post before I go to sleep.

Imp is difficult to read because the post limits put them far outside of meta.
Crystalizedmire feels just a little too slippery.
I have to think again about Elephant. At least the vote is safe from hammers here.

Why am I slippery?

Town!Max clearly doesn't want to improve scum's read on who the Chosen One is, which is why he was reluctant to answer. Both of your questions would do exactly that. Fishing for pro-scum information isn't out of character for scum!you: in FBYOR, after I said I planted a bomb on you and said I wouldn't discuss the trigger, you asked if it would go off if you performed a mafiakill.

I don't understand why the second question would be pro scum since it is an alternative to the first question.

Imp, I'm inclined to vote you when the deadline gets close. The better I read your posts, the more I start to believe you are guilty of precisely the thing that both of us accused Elephant of. I also don't like your going off on a tangent with the ability shenanigans. That's a great way to take attention away from the thing that matters.
Remember what I said once about golden mountains?

@Crystalizedmire: I can see where your imp town vibe is coming from, but ask yourself, would scum!Imp really act different from what we've seen so far?

Probably not? I don't see how Imp is scum due to wanting to know how to use their abilities. You claim that it distracts from the discussion so therefore Imp is scum but I feel town!Imp would do that too. I agree that Imp is a hypocrite for accusing Elephant Parade of something they're guilty of but I don't think they're pushing an elimination on them either. I also don't see accusing you of anything

[Elephant Parade]

EP-related stuff:

I invite you to look for other places this game where I try to please people.

But among your 'seems odd, people pleasing?' comments:

(spoiler)

Out of respect for your beliefs...

Before Imp answered, my prediction was, "As useful as any other." I think that was borne out.

While you vote here:

Pretty much everything TricMagic has posted has been egregiously silly. His logic for Quarque being the Chosen One doesn't make sense. His logic for lynching Called Shot targets doesn't make sense (a Called Shot is only somewhat stronger than a regular mafiakill, being both unblockable and untrackable, so a player being a probable Called Shot target should only be a minor factor in whether we lynch them; if we lynch a player because they're Called Shot-eligible, we're essentially doing scum's job for them). Going through with a lynch on the Chosen One makes no sense because they can self-out (in fairness, Tric might have missed that).

I know this is within Tric's meta but he could be faking it and, quite frankly, he needs to develop a better one.

(/spoiler)

There's more samples in this game.  Your wording in generally seems unusually careful compared to previous games I've had with you.  You're second guessing yourself, you're highlighting reasons you could be wrong, you're showing TM more than one out.

Wording-wise, I see what you mean. I've been reading more lately and it's affected how I write. Content-wise, however, none of these are people-pleasing. #1:

Maximum Spin: Out of respect for your beliefs, I will not ask you an RVS question. This is a placeholder.

With the full sentence restored, I am clearly making a joke.

#2: I'm saying that CM's question was no more or less helpful than any other RVS question.

#3: This is actively abrasive. I am saying Tric's playstyle sucks and I hate it, albeit in polite terms.

I'm guessing this interrogation was this, which... speaking of softball:

How was that softball? My suspicion of Max was based on the possibility he'd made a fork play. He nailed down his position within a few minutes of me asking him to, which made me think that no, it probably wasn't a fork play.

I wouldn't be averse to more Max posts. I somehow already have a read on him or else I'd strongly want more Max posts.

I don't understand why the second question would be pro scum since it is an alternative to the first question.

Because it would help scum understand why Max thinks I'm the Chosen One, which they could use to weigh his read, which would refine their read on me.

[Quarque]

I don't see how Imp is scum due to wanting to know how to use their abilities. You claim that it distracts from the discussion so therefore Imp is scum but I feel town!Imp would do that too. I agree that Imp is a hypocrite for accusing Elephant Parade of something they're guilty of but I don't think they're pushing an elimination on them either. I also don't see accusing you of anything

You're right that Imp discussing how to best use their ability doesn't mean much by itself.
The real problem is that I see too much talk and too little hunting. Like, the fact that Imp wasn't pushing for any elimination is the actual problem.

I will reiterate that no matter whether I am right or wrong about Imp, getting lost in a discussion about mechanics and abilities would be dangerous given that we are on a posting budget. Much more dangerous than blowing a few posts on RVS. It is just too easy to get side-tracked.

I do also want to see more of Maximum Spin.

[Elephant Parade]

Everyone: What are your townreads?

[TricMagic]

Quarque, you're barking up the wrong tree. Imp's always looking to others.

You still don't explain why you think a dragon is safe to be around in a 1 Scum Game.

[Maximum Spin]

Let me explain my thought process for unvoting Tric, which I only implied at the time:
1. There is only one Evil player in this game.
2. Therefore, dishonest townreads are not a concern: if A townreads B, either A is town and their read is genuine, or A is scum and B is certainly town.
3. That doesn't mean town!A's read of B is correct. In this case, however, I have a history of scumreading town!Tric, a player people notoriously read via meta, and Maximum Spin, a player who's played with Tric (including scum!Tric, I assume) much more than I have, seems to think they're town.
4. Therefore, I'm probably barking up the wrong tree and should refocus.

I don't think I'd have reversed course based solely on another player's read for any other combination of players in this game. I can't prove that, but I invite you to look for other places this game where I try to please people.

Don't mistake my argument for a strong townread of Tric. A soloscum game is rarely that easy to read. But most of what you've said is true.

Right now, the player who seems weakest to me is Quarque. I may change my mind, though.

If you won't answer that, why do you think that stating that you think that Elephant Parade is chosen one will cause scum to believe that?

Because I'm always right, of course.

[Elephant Parade]

I can get behind a Quarque lynch. I still don't buy their explanation for this:

(...)

unvote

Imp, I'm inclined to vote you when the deadline gets close. The better I read your posts, the more I start to believe you are guilty of precisely the thing that both of us accused Elephant of. I also don't like your going off on a tangent with the ability shenanigans. That's a great way to take attention away from the thing that matters.
Remember what I said once about golden mountains?

@Crystalizedmire: I can see where your imp town vibe is coming from, but ask yourself, would scum!Imp really act different from what we've seen so far?

As Imp keeps reminding us, hammers must be avoided.

I'm only half sarcastic here - due to timezones, there is not an ocean of opportunity for me left to make corrections in the remaining daytime.

There are 30 hours left in the day. That's at least a small sea. In any event, you'd only be bringing them to L-2, which isn't exactly the danger zone.

I don't recall Quarque being a hammer-paranoid player in previous games, and refusing to vote at those numbers is definite paranoia. Meanwhile, I can see why scum!Quarque would FoS here: he avoids being the second vote on town!Imp and keeps his options open for later. It doesn't seem like a particularly strong play, but it's less crazy to me than a legit hammer freakout.

[Elephant Parade]

Oops, insert this between the first and second quotes:

Unvoting and FoS-ing with intent to vote strikes me as an unusual combination when the FoSee only has one vote on them. What made you pick it over a simple unvote-and-vote?

[TricMagic]

Isn't vote pressure grand.