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[TricMagic]

I'm leaning towards a Maximumspin lynch today. Though I will reserve judgement until after breakfast I actually read last night's posts. NQT, Votecount?

[TricMagic]

I already proposed that I think me and Elephant were targeted.

Okay, makes sense. It's likely your action made you target yourself and Elephant with Wishbone.

I don't actually have any single-target-player abilities, by the way.

Okay. So NJW's Wishbone did nothing to either of us since we did not have any single-target abilities to target each other with. Although I do have one now with Elephant's Town Hall ability.

Also funny coincidence we both were targeting a sphere last night. It's like NJW knew, or more realistic he just suspected the two of us the most on N1.

Hmm.. So Toony knows Town Hall isn't a free action I guess? Which does free up Elephant from likely suspicion.

[TricMagic]

Last post.

What is the likelihood of a 3 person team. Cause if NJW is scum, Toony is also Scum. In order to take the page safely, for mafia they'd have to know the details first. NJW would not take the page if it hindered them, as mafia. They would take the page if it was plotted ahead of time, cause it keeps it inactive, or the page's details aren't actually what we've been told. Make sense?

[Elephant Parade]

I'm increasingly OK with an NJW lynch but I think I still prefer Max here.

Imp: If you actually have second wincon then you need to claim it right here and now. You aren't going to be lynched for having one, and it has huge implications.

[Elephant Parade]

Regarding the wishbone, see this post from ages ago:

Both players target eachother if they have single target abilities

OK. I was going to say that that means it can't have been you and I who were targeted by the wishbone because I only have two abilities and they're both chat invites, but when I looked at my PM I realized that wasn't true: I have a [target] item that targets a player and does literally nothing. I can trade this away to anyone who wants to confirm.

[Elephant Parade]

Thanks, CM.

I like your logic here but am about you switching over from the old popular lynchee to the new. But then, I also want to lynch MS today. On the whole, I think you're probably town.

Did you do anything to develop your read over the two days your vote was on me?

I did absolutely nothing to develop my read on you. I just thought: "suspcious" and that is it.
Imp: Use less words. Be laconic. I don't have all the time and energy in the world to read your posts.

I appreciate the honesty, but that's kinda bad. You need to be more proactive.

[NJW2000]

Ok, Imp showed no evidence of having actually read my post. They’re either scum, or a disrespectful jerk placing a far higher value on their own contribution to the game than anyone else.

Ok, scratch that - regardless of alignment, they’re definitely the second one.

[Imp]

I'm increasingly OK with an NJW lynch but I think I still prefer Max here.

Imp: If you actually have second wincon then you need to claim it right here and now. You aren't going to be lynched for having one, and it has huge implications.

I know.  I've said this before if you want the quotes.

I have 1 wincon.  I do not have the second wincon sphere.  It seems boring to me, I'm totally disinterested in it.

But I am wondering.  Mafia, they need

You are Mafia. You win when town can no longer win.

So I just realized while I was sleeping, I think knowing about how to complete second wincons and get non-mafia out of play is super-pro-mafia for the mafia, because they can offer that player a second wincon win, which is NOT a town win.  That's one more player mafia doesn't need to kill, because if they help that player leave the game, then they can just worry about everyone else that can allow town to win.

A townie with a second wincon is not a needed mafia kill, it's a waste of a mafiakill or lynch, unless it's protecting some other mafia member, because they can 'ensure that player isn't there to help town anymore' if completing the second wincon removes the townie from play.

So I also think checking for a second wincon is likely a very, very mafia thing to do, and if indeed Toons and NJW, who probably does have a second wincon (but I don't think it's that one, the claim itself and the reasons for the claim itself feel very false to me, but I don't really disbelieve the second wincon... and maybe it's just how he said the second wincon's reasons that feel so false, not sure.  But lie there, I really think; not sure what the lie is) are mafia - well NJW can confirm Toons' action for sure, better than a 'but there are no other second wincons'.

If someone's hiding a second wincon, it's not me.  I also expect that it's NAI for Toons to say 1 second wincon sphere.  But not NAI for Toons to have checked for it, though that could be townie poo.

But me, you get until I die or town wins.

[Elephant Parade]

I agree with that logic in general, but there's currently a pro-town reason to ask about second wincons: the possibility of catching NJW and/or Toonyman, if scum, in a contradiction.

[Elephant Parade]

Last post.

What is the likelihood of a 3 person team. Cause if NJW is scum, Toony is also Scum. In order to take the page safely, for mafia they'd have to know the details first. NJW would not take the page if it hindered them, as mafia. They would take the page if it was plotted ahead of time, cause it keeps it inactive, or the page's details aren't actually what we've been told. Make sense?

I think a 3-man team is plausible if there aren't any other third parties. Scum!NJW doesn't require scum!Toonyman if he has a way of working around the page, though.

Anyway, it feels kind of silly to vote out the person with the page when we haven't seen how it interacts with them.

[Imp]

What I really need from everyone, to help me not lynch town NJW if NJW can be town.

NJW was 100% him keep the page until he heard about me having the apple.

Then he's so willing to get the apple out of my hands he is even willing to discuss putting the Page and the apple in somebody else's hands N3 (meaning mafia and any other kills are uncontrolled N2).

How can town NJW think that's a better use of the book than him using it tonight?

He has even said don't bother to protect him. Then he spouted nonsense about 'double protection'.  I think nah, he's killing tonight himself, him or his partner, or would have, and just said it didn't work as expected or there's more kills.

He didn't really get intense about it until the discussion of removing kill sphere entirely came up between me and Max.

Start of D2, this is NJW's stance.  This is good.  I like this. If NJW had held this stance, I would still townread NJW:

I have the bible page. I should keep it to redirect the kill to me… I might ask for that apple as I can’t be 100% sure I’ll live. People treating it like a cursed item is weird: someone will get hit by the mafia kill, this just lets us control it.

But after apple was mentioned, first he offers me other artefact for apple.
I tell him that's scum on earth, does not fly, because he said D1 don't even bother to protect him, and didn't bother to give it to me N1, which was what I told him I would accept, no questions asked, if he thought he couldn't handle it.  He could have decided to give it to someone else and explained 'I'm scared of Imp, and I won't hold this to have a chance to absorb a kill, I was wrong about handling it, but I don't trust imp'.  I, would-be-Xanatos, actually discussed that with him D1.  And that if he needs to get the Page out of his hands, I'll take it for the emerald, but apple is no deal.  He didn't know he could have an apple when he agreed to take the Page; he didn't know he could have an apple when he decided to not give the Page away last night; he decided without apple knowledge to keep the Page.  He does not get an apple, and it's scum to even try.

He's all:

Imp: that's good to know, and I understand on the apple front. I think there's a reasonable chance I survive the night, and otherwise we don't get to absorb the kill, making this endless faffing about with the bible page pointless. I need to ask the GM something, it might be very counterproductive for me to have an apple in fact.

and later offers other artefact for emerald.  I accept.  To me that's fine, that's like EP's reaction to my interest in EP spending an action to use the glass.  No-reasoning-yes.  Both look town.  I am fully accepting NJW as probably town still.

Then this:

Imp: sorry if you've already answered this, but in your hands, the bible page may not still redirect kills to the holder. As such, you may not be able to stop a kill with the apple you hold. Am I right in thinking you believe your having the bible page and the apple is more important than the chance to prevent a nightkill?

Wtf.  Town NJW should, as EJ stated:

NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

How is NJW mafia?

That is the behavior I expect from town NJW.  NJW should be 'f-off, I keep this page'.  He's not.

Instead:

Imp: yeah, fair enough, I was mainly interested in the apple to control further nightkills.

The flip is this 'further nightkills'.  Apple rots tonight or is eaten if I trade it to NJW today.  Unless NJW has reason to think his top secret power that he won't say anything more about except waffle all over the world about won't kick in if he has the apple eaten, and it does kick in tomorrow, but then poofs, there's no cause for NJW to say this.

And then NJW waffles even further, and attempts to discuss no chance of control over night kill (and this is AFTER Max is onboard with the idea of removing kill sphere

but in your hands, the bible page may not still redirect kills to the holder. As such, you may not be able to stop a kill with the apple you hold. Am I right in thinking you believe your having the bible page and the apple is more important than the chance to prevent a nightkill?

The double f is NJW discussing the Page out of his hands.  No.  If he's discussing 'for future nights, maybe we make a new plan for tomorrow' - needs those words.  Everything I hear is about today.

Even this filth, triple f:

when there is the option to block the kill n3 by giving both to idk, Crystallized or whatever.

That's not this:

NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

I don't see town going, umm... I see scum going umm.

One other option.

We elim NJW.  But if we don't for some reason I currently think is totally stupid, but open to having my mind changed on, NJW keeps the Page tonight.  Whatever happens happens; I think scum things happen because I think NJW is outed scum with scum plans waving frantically.

One of two other things happen tonight. I eat the apple, or I prevent it from rotting (other things could happen too).  Perhaps we discuss further then.  I make no promises.  But if I really like what happens N2, maybe NJW ends up with some extra help D3/N3.

Currently he's as scum as web to me.

[Imp]

I agree with that logic in general, but there's currently a pro-town reason to ask about second wincons: the possibility of catching NJW and/or Toonyman, if scum, in a contradiction.

Totally.  I'd already said I don't have a second wincon, but huge thread, I get it.  I would happily counterclaim either EJ or Toony.  I can't on that wincon thing, I don't have the magic answer that counterclaims.

I think a 3-man team is plausible if there aren't any other third parties. Scum!NJW doesn't require scum!Toonyman if he has a way of working around the page, though.

yeah, all it takes is any third scum, if NJW is scum, and last night somehow page transfered from NJW to the other person, who as scum helpfully doesn't say so, nor does NJW.  So there's no Page protection at all, all kills are free of it, but only scum know this, and so 'second kill' explains the problem.  Could be EJ, wanting to kill toony; 50% to free the mafiakill if Page, but if no page because EJ and NJW know it isn't working, then one of them kills someone not toony; EJ claims tried to kill toony and failed, must be mafiakill worked.  EJ really wants that apple out of my hands too.  it was when I said connection between EJ and NJW about that apple that NJW started 'playing townie ball' with suggesting to trade that other artefact to Imp for the emerald.  Oh, hated that catch of connection there, if the pair is indeed EJ and NJW.  But I don't know.

I do know, I think NJW is anti-town, and it doesn't look good for Toony, but like this:

I can see a universe where Max is town and saves web, irrespective of web's alignment.  But not the inverse.

I can still see a universe where Toony ain't anti-town, but it's getting smaller.

Anyway, it feels kind of silly to vote out the person with the page when we haven't seen how it interacts with them.

I would say yes, but imagine web alive another day.  Look at his flip and tell me how many days you wanna give scum web, with unknown team members helping him, and get back to me on if you still think we should keep person with Page in play no matter their alignment.

[NJW2000]

Ok, I can’t be arsed with this. Someone else can talk to him if they want to.

[TricMagic]

Today looking like another day of nothing. You could be correct Imp. Or just tunneling. But e're not really getting anywhere fast at this point. MaximumSpin

[Imp]

And I don't give a shit about whatever "outs" you gave me on the apple front and then subsequently closed

You totally massively misunderstood or misassumed.

When I mentioned the apple, it was never in connection 'so maybe I should give it to NJW'.  You may have decided I meant that.  I never thought it.

I brought it up because I don't know if the Page is in scum control.  I don't know if we have idiot town willing to take a 50% chance on their vigshot vs mafia.

I never intended to give you the apple when I brought up apple.  I'm shocked and disturbed that people started to move to get the apple out of my hands when they heard apple.

I never 'subsequently closed' on anything about that apple.

You took the job without apple option, at least for N2.  You had options that didn't involve the apple to get out of that N2.  You didn't take them; you don't get apple as well.  If you are town and do your job with that Page, which you claimed to have accepted, you shouldn't care about apple is my thinking.

If you need extra help D3, that can be discussed.  It may or may not be available.  But that's not what you're doing.  You're waffling all over the world, and that's scummy to me, hardcore.  Because it perfectly matches you don't even have the page anymore, and everything's scum from here on out.

I also want to muddy the waters here.  I claim I got an apple from Qua last night.

It's an item.  I can do a lot with items.  However, if anyone thinks I'm town and need protection from a nightkill, I might be eating the apple tonight.  I might give it, I might do things I do with it that are not revealed by Qua's roleflip and don't help town for me to reveal except 'oh, nuff said, there's more here than meets even the apple of the eye'.

However, I might eat it.  We already know there's going to be that Page in play tonight.  We only see evidence of one unstopped kill last night, there might be more than one kill-able person.  But there's a real chance I don't need protection tonight, and maybe someone else does.  NJW already said they do not/will not and they haven't retracted that yet.

Here's my first statement of the apple.  Sorry if you don't understand the last sentence.  I never considered the apple going to you today.  That was not why I brought it up.

I asked about your rationale for being willing to take the page at some point, but not to give up the apple. Because that means you thought it was less important to have extra chances to control and block the nightkill THAN FOR YOU TO KEEP THE APPLE AND USE THE PAGE'S POWER. You're more willing to take the page than give up the apple. Or at least that's what I'm getting from the endless paragraphs that make up this thread.

Before I knew you could theoretically control the kill(s) with the Page, I viewed the Page as an item that costs someone an action to move around to avoid being killed.  That's a NAI harmful to everyone object.  I didn't know your option to maybe handle the Page safely existed; so I offered to remove it from play.  That removes from everyone this hot-potato, I think it's better out of play than in, unless someone who could control it exists.  My removing it from play also offers a pro-town option above it just being in someone's hands when they die, no biggie, other ways to do it, ideal not to remove the Page from play if there's a good Page in play use for it, which I don't have.

I think you're really scummy for exploring any idea other than page in your hands, after you went as far with it as you did.  I think you're scum who had the page, and need outs.  I think town you would keep the page and discuss your needs and options.  "Guys, I think you get N2 if there's no other kills.  Can't promise anything past that".  Well, we're talking about removing everything but anti-town kills, so that sounds good if so.  But you don't stick to that.  You even talk about moving the page before D3, else how could CM or someone else have it + apple N3?  So you're talking about no protection N2.

I'd rather keep the Page in your hands, period, if you live, and talk about how to keep protecting you if possible.

Except you're so scum-looking in priority, and fit scum for D1 too, that's hard for me.

Mass votes will decide.  It's hard for me, you look really anti-town in how you're doing everything, and your answers still look anti-town to me.  And if you're scum on the hook you're going to say anything you think helps.  I know that, I'm trying to read everyone deep.  Watching the universe where you're anti-town fits really well for my read of your actions.

Still, dig yourself out, and/or town decides.  It wasn't easy to stay on web either.  I don't know.  I just know 'looks and fits anti-town, I don't see pro-town here'.  And that drives my vote.  I'm hugely relieved I was right about web.  I'm town and I don't know, I just read.

But until you went all waffles, this was my read of you, and you had huge, though unearned, town cred with me.  You were basically nqt in Max's last game to me, 'What is nqt?  Townie, doing town stuff, taking town risks, making town choices, saying hardly any words.  Kk, that's town I should protect'.  Then you stopped acting like that, hardcore, repeatedly.

It sucks.  This was how I saw you, before you went all waffles.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Yr4_od7Fc