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[Imp]

Tric is Tric. His success on Day 1 should grant him the Immunity Token from Today's Lynch, and town has wisely done this.

I am incredibly uncomfortable only with this.

Tric set up the double elim.  Which easily could have killed anyone, including Tric.

It happened to kill scum and neutral TP.

Anyone think Tric ensured that?

[EuchreJack]

@Imp: I have committed to inviting Elephant Parade or Maximum Spin to my chat. Twice in fact.  This is the third time.
Either they or Toony will be able to confirm this Night Action.
I am pinned.

Tric is Tric. His success on Day 1 should grant him the Immunity Token from Today's Lynch, and town has wisely done this.

I am incredibly uncomfortable only with this.

Tric set up the double elim.  Which easily could have killed anyone, including Tric.

It happened to kill scum and neutral TP.

Anyone think Tric ensured that?

Screw you

[Imp]

I'm cool with the exact wording.  Today's lynch, yes.  I just... if EJ is mafia, and game continues.  We get MS out, game continues.  Presumably EP out, game continues.  EJ supports Tric for reasons I don't read as 'wow, that is clearly town that did that'.  I just don't want a bad 'set' of reasons being used for 'above suspicion', and I find bad reasons suspicious.

Otherwise, not concerned, carry on.

[Imp]

@Imp: I have committed to inviting Elephant Parade or Maximum Spin to my chat. Twice in fact.  This is the third time.
Anyone think Tric ensured that?

Screw you
[/quote]

Whoops.  Sorry.  How did Tric ensure the lynch of scum and neutral TP?  Tric enabled two elims.  That's awesome.  If it had been two town, should we be saying tric is clearly town?

Tric didn't ensure which two died.  I think Tric had very little control over which two died, I think Tric should be read for other reasons.

That said, I like those other reasons a lot.  I stand with Tric as town, with high confidence, and an expectation that every single thing Tric does will be not-anti-town.  I expect Tric to have the same expectation of me, especially because so far, I have actually reduced Tric's power, twice, if you give me credit for the elims - I wasn't going for sof, I had a weak town read with zero confidence of the read, as I said my last read of D1.

But I also stole his stuff.  Which helps confirm, if you use an item, and I steal it, your use happened.  Might be important to notice that for later.

But, I put Tric in a position of great weakness, through more than one method.  I embrace Tric holding me to a very high pro-town standard.

[Imp]

I am pinned.

I have free action(s) I consider as useful or better than inviting someone to a free chat.  So I'm not happy that this is a action-use for you.  But I bet give is not free for you.  And you claim to have an emerald.  Tric can confirm getting a your-claimed-color emerald D3, if nothing messes that up, and that would eat an action, I think.  Seriously, pinning folks this game can be hard to feel sure of.

[Elephant Parade]

Giving an item isn't an absolute pin because it still allows for freekills, double-actions, and sundry other nonsense. I agree that it's a slightly stronger pin than EJ's unseen chat invite action, which could be free on top of all that, but only slightly. I think it is plausible that a town EJ would believe that the value of sending an invite would, even discounting the fact that he knows he's town, outweigh the value of a slightly better self-confirm. He would probably be right.

[Elephant Parade]

Oh yeah, I got Toonyman's permission to post that first conversation:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Toony — 02/01/2024 1:54 PM
okay
Surprise the doctor died who I also thought was town
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:54 PM
Yeah
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:54 PM
I don't know why you invited me I think you're Webadict's partner 😐
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:54 PM
But the global mafiakill blocker was fake?
Because I'm not sure if you're town or scum, and if you're town, I want to get on the same page
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:55 PM
Okay, I wrote notes last night on who is most likely with Web
they're on my work computer though I need to transfer them over
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:55 PM
Cool
I was also going to ask you to fullclaim for a couple of reasons, but (a) it's less important now and (b) I get why you wouldn't want to
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:56 PM
Jack is probably going to kill me today, and I know FoU is going to be all "I told you so"
Jack has a kill he can use
I don't know if he's scum though I don't really feel Jack or FoU anymore
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:57 PM
I'm not really feeling FoU ATM
He came across as legit toward the end of last night
Jack I'm less sure of, maybe just because he was a dick to me yesterday
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:57 PM
I like FoU more than Jack I guess, let me get my notes I'm just going to post them in the thread and claim stuff
FoU does these crazy wrong tangents as town a lot
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:57 PM
Oh, I would like to ask you one sphere question
Are you Blowback?
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
also there's one player that has a secondary wincon, I'm going to claim that in thread
No I don't have blowback
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
Good
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
I don't know who or what the wincon is though
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
Not sof?
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
No
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:58 PM
The other reason I picked you was to use a weird inspect that requires you to be in my groupchat
Toony — 02/01/2024 1:59 PM
I didn't check emerald locations last night because Web died
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 1:59 PM
I don't want to divulge the details unless I have to, but basically, I thought that if you were scum, I might be able to get an incriminating result
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:00 PM
well I'm town so
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:00 PM
Well, yeah
But I wasn't sure about that, and the nature of my ability was such that it would be-- actually I'll just explain it
I can pick a groupchat and a sphere
NQT goes through everyone in the groupchat except me and everyone in their groupchats (except me)
If any of those people have the sphere, I get TRUE
I added you and submitted [Town Hall: Blowback] because you had an ability that you claimed was probably a product of Blowback, and which sounded like a product of Blowback, meaning that you could be scum with a partner with Blowback
I got FALSE, which doesn't prove your innocence but does point toward it
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:04 PM
I don't know why I started with that bad bible
I assumed a town player picked blowback and is too ashamed to admit that
but there's other similar items so I think I just got a shitty item
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:04 PM
Possibly but that would be stupid on their part
Could be
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:05 PM
I have my notes now, I'm not going to claim who I'm specifically in chats with I guess
I got invited to multiple chats by the way
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:05 PM
I haven't decided to claim yet besides you probably not being scum
I lost my Family Jewels last night
Oh, nice
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:05 PM
it's kind of funny honestly
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:06 PM
I was worried that the pregame chat convo would make everyone submit chat abilities
I built mine before that, but...
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:11 PM
Quarque was super by the way, not overpowered I don't know why you thought that I don't remember him saying overpowered anywhere and it was obvious he was Fruit-selling and protection for the other two
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:11 PM
No, I assumed he was overpowered because he said he could block the mafiakill
I thought he could like
Block the mafiakill GLOBALLY for a night
Hence overpowered
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:11 PM
superkill though? that's usually what the call it
super bypasses
so superprotect is the doctor version
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:12 PM
Let me see if I can remember what gave me that impression
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:12 PM
anyway if you're mafia with Web you spent a lot of time talking to yourself which is very funny so maybe it's just Max or Jack instead, I really don't see any other possibilities
and I don't really think it's Max or NJW
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:13 PM
I've been assuming there are probably three scum?
It's a 12-player game
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:13 PM
yeah maybe but I've been assuming two scum 1 3p personally
and we've seen two
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:14 PM
You're right
Hmm, is 3 scum + 2 third-parties reasonable for a 12P?
I'm stupid
Image
I somehow skipped over the "if this works"
He meant that if he protected the person with the page, it would be prevented, obviously
Re: Max: You're probably already thinking of this, but Max invited NJW to tie the vote at EoD
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:22 PM
Oh sorry, I misread you—two scum and one 3P? That doesn't feel like enough, especially since the known 3P isn't anti-town
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:22 PM
three mafia with 7 town? hahaha
uh 8 actually
that still feels ridiclous
maybe it's 2 mafia, 2 3P I don't know, 3 mafia 1 3P seems too much to me
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:24 PM
You're right, that would be a third of the game
If there's two scum, either it isn't me or I have a freekill. Barring vig claims, I guess.
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:26 PM
I mean I have a free action so
I haven't claimed that part heh
my free action is what let's me learn more the following nights
I guess I have implied my free action
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:27 PM
Yeah, and from an outside perspective, I guess it could've also been this action that was free. It would be fairly crazy if a recursive chat-invite and my weird chat-cop ability were free, but I haven't proven that the latter exists.
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:27 PM
I mean if I believe you and Jack it's just Max (or NJW?)
probably Max though
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:29 PM
I think Max makes more sense since he offered the tie and NJW didn't take it, though I suppose that could be town!Max trying to bait him
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:31 PM
I believe you less than Max so givent he choice I'd probably vote you right now
but we'll see
it's also way funnier if you've been play acting in this townhall to look legit
so I'd rather that be true now as well
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:33 PM
Unfortunately, I can't prove I haven't been
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:33 PM
Yes
You can't, hahaha!
Did you really think I was town after Webadict flipped scum, in my opinion I look horrible
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:34 PM
I can claim more if you want. I don't want to claim my spheres without good reason because not having an incriminating result isn't enough to make me 100% sure you're town, given that-- yeah that
It was a mix of "you could be town", "I want to get on the same page with you if you're town", and "I can't think of a better use for this weird cop power"
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:34 PM
I will be surprised if I survive today, Jack and FoU aren't going to back off of me most likely
even though FoU's case is completely off-tilt, I think he's honestly wrong about it though
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:35 PM
I think you're close a necessary lynch under the circumstances unless we can find something exculpatory. I guess the same logic would lead me in that direction
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:36 PM
in my defense my role yet again made me assume someone's alignment incorrectly
so I should just not do that anymore
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:36 PM
Yup
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:36 PM
you can't metagame the GM because they'll just put in role decisions
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:36 PM
Pirates only existing as millers WAS funny
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:36 PM
like two pirate millers or whatever
my play would have been so good if I wasn't a miller
I feel like I would have been right about everything
I WAS right about everything basically that didn't involve pirates
anyway this isn't relevant
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:38 PM
That's an interesting way to reframe "I superkilled a mason because I thought the masons were pirates"
True
Would you mind claiming the number of items you started the game with? I'm trying to work something out
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:42 PM
just the bible
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:42 PM
Interesting
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:43 PM
I can learn the total number of items that living players have but I haven't done that yet
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:44 PM
That would be mildly interesting information but it's not quite what I'm angling for
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:44 PM
I picked secondary wincons as probably the most helpful thing to know as soon as possible, I was considering checking Kill instead
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:45 PM
I actually don't see your logic there since webadict, the most probable secondary-wincon-haver, had just been lynched
Toony — 02/01/2024 2:45 PM
I expect to die on D2 so letting the town know whether players would be playing some other wincon makes sense to me, it puts players as ease if it's 0
it's not though, I got 1
my role is also Sonic based, so I guess me and Webadict had the same idea submitting roles
Elephant Parade — 02/01/2024 2:46 PM
Reasonable

As a note, my action actually returns Yes or No, not TRUE or FALSE. I just think of it like the latter.

[Crystalizedmire]

Crystallizedmire, how confident are you that I'm scum?

Honestly, I find your day2 behaviour fine. You do seem to be actually trying to ask questions and find scum. I do not like your day1 behaviour. Day1, you seem to go after Imp because of the Webadict wagon, then you try to get me eliminated because I was the most suspicious one on the wagon. You even admitted it was because you didn't want webadict to get eliminated. I think you should've known better especially with Imp and Webadict. I think Maximum Spin should've known better as well but I don't think he casted suspicion on Imp during the Webadict wagon.

1. I would like you to walk me through the bolded passage, ideally with quotes. I will likely end up agreeing that it's a plausible read, but right now, "seem to" is doing a lot of work.
2. I genuinely appreciate the analysis, but you didn't quite answer my question—how would you package all that into an overall read?

This was after sof hopped on the wagon. Imp was the wagon leader and had been on it the longest so trying to discredit them is a good idea. This is despite the fact that Imp always posts filler.

I would also take Imp, who has been posting a disturbing amount of filler lately.

Here was the votecount before you voted me:

I believe this is the current votecount:

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire - [2] webadict, Maximum Spin,
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack -
- FallacyofUrist -   
- Imp -
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin - [2] Quarque, NJW2000
- NJW2000 -
- Sofanthiel - [4] TricMagic, Toonyman, Elephant Parade, Euchrejack
- Toonyman - [1] FallacyofUrist,
- TricMagic -
- Webadict - [3] Imp, Crystalizedmire, Sofanthiel
- No Elimination

Current Possible Eliminations: sofanthiel, webadict

Shortly afterwards you tried to start a wagon on me:

If Imp is a nonstarter, then I'm going to vote Crystallizedmire for going quiet again. I read webadict as solidly town right now.

In other news, where's FoU? I'm unclear on where their current reads are at, but earlier they said their preferred picks were Quarque, Toony, Crystal, and Max. They came in a couple hours ago to drop a treatise on Toony and then dipped. Toony isn't on to respond and is a longshot lynch, OK. But if they still prefer CM (and/or webadict as of the Toony post) over others, shouldn't they be agitating for that, or at least getting in on the questioning? I want to hear from them.

Even though sofanthiel was technically the most suspicious, they already had a wagon on them so voting sof would not stop webadict from getting eliminated.

[Imp]

Giving an item isn't an absolute pin because it still allows for freekills, double-actions, and sundry other nonsense. I agree that it's a slightly stronger pin than EJ's unseen chat invite action, which could be free on top of all that, but only slightly. I think it is plausible that a town EJ would believe that the value of sending an invite would, even discounting the fact that he knows he's town, outweigh the value of a slightly better self-confirm. He would probably be right.

Yep.

I have a anti-town lock on his chat nonsense of looking for ways to see it's okay to give the mafia-kill a 50% chance to land, so he can have a 50% chance to use his walk the plank on his chosen target.

That alone is anti-town.

But I think he wants to enable that risk for a 50% chance to kill me.  I happen to know I'm town, and don't think I'm first or second on anyone's scumlist.  Maybe the hint is that he can kill those in the chat with him, period, and wants to make sure he can do so safely.

If so, I don't trust him enough to want him adding people to the chats.... and I think I finally understand a pro-town side of what the heck EJ is doing.

I accept he has Toony hostage.  That sucks, but that's okay, potentially good.

I don't want EJ to have more hostages.  I don't think he needs or deserves them.

And that apple business, that's interesting.

EJ - the way I recommend you handle that in the future is to explain to me how anti-town you think it would be for me to attempt to protect Toony from you, that he is yours now and you will kill him when and if you choose.  And if I was to give him an apple, that would be viewed as a strong anti-town move by you.

And then we'd discuss from there, about how far as we see from flips apples are single use and how long can I protect him, hrm, your walk the plank's maybe single use too, gosh you're worried about when I save Toony...

I don't even care.  Toony claims spherecop, I think that's useful.  I think Toony's town and if he's scum, let's make him dance then kill him last.  Same deal he offered me last game.  Same deal I'm saying Max can discuss having, -maybe-.  I think Toony was wrong, not scum.

You can have a living hostage.  That's pro-town.  Killing him or trying to gives scum a 50% chance to kill their target instead, which if you're scum means great stuff for scum because they know when to try and if you're scum, Toony's town, if that's how this all works (which I don't know).

But I will lay your death like crimson flowers on his grave, if he dies and flips town, unless I'm very, very sure he didn't die because of you.  You better be damn sure nobody can force you to use that kill ability either.  We're in a freaking pro-time power game here, and we got people who pull the strings of people pulling strings in this game, at least in some areas.  And now I gotta wonder if Toony dies if you rigged it or if someone else did.
Because I don't want you using power your way, and because you effed up one way or another, I am still very, very, very interested in you giving an emerald tonight.

But let's hear from the rest on this.  I'm far less likely to vote you if I believe you're giving that specific emerald you named to a person we agree on who isn't Toony or myself.  I pick Tric, you townread him strong for bad-to-me reasons, but I'm willing to hear alternatives on that.

[Crystalizedmire]

Crystallizedmire, how confident are you that I'm scum?

Honestly, I find your day2 behaviour fine. You do seem to be actually trying to ask questions and find scum. I do not like your day1 behaviour. Day1, you seem to go after Imp because of the Webadict wagon, then you try to get me eliminated because I was the most suspicious one on the wagon. You even admitted it was because you didn't want webadict to get eliminated. I think you should've known better especially with Imp and Webadict. I think Maximum Spin should've known better as well but I don't think he casted suspicion on Imp during the Webadict wagon.

1. I would like you to walk me through the bolded passage, ideally with quotes. I will likely end up agreeing that it's a plausible read, but right now, "seem to" is doing a lot of work.
2. I genuinely appreciate the analysis, but you didn't quite answer my question—how would you package all that into an overall read?

This was after sof hopped on the wagon. Imp was the wagon leader and had been on it the longest so trying to discredit them is a good idea. This is despite the fact that Imp always posts filler.

I would also take Imp, who has been posting a disturbing amount of filler lately.

Here was the votecount before you voted me:

I believe this is the current votecount:

Vote Count — Day 1
- Crystalizedmire - [2] webadict, Maximum Spin,
- Elephant Parade
- Euchrejack -
- FallacyofUrist -   
- Imp -
- Quarque - 
- Maximum Spin - [2] Quarque, NJW2000
- NJW2000 -
- Sofanthiel - [4] TricMagic, Toonyman, Elephant Parade, Euchrejack
- Toonyman - [1] FallacyofUrist,
- TricMagic -
- Webadict - [3] Imp, Crystalizedmire, Sofanthiel
- No Elimination

Current Possible Eliminations: sofanthiel, webadict

Shortly afterwards you tried to start a wagon on me:

If Imp is a nonstarter, then I'm going to vote Crystallizedmire for going quiet again. I read webadict as solidly town right now.

In other news, where's FoU? I'm unclear on where their current reads are at, but earlier they said their preferred picks were Quarque, Toony, Crystal, and Max. They came in a couple hours ago to drop a treatise on Toony and then dipped. Toony isn't on to respond and is a longshot lynch, OK. But if they still prefer CM (and/or webadict as of the Toony post) over others, shouldn't they be agitating for that, or at least getting in on the questioning? I want to hear from them.

Even though sofanthiel was technically the most suspicious, they already had a wagon on them so voting sof would not stop webadict from getting eliminated.

EBWOP: I would consider Elephant Parade genuinely suspicious and probably in league with Webadict

[Elephant Parade]

-snip-

Hmm. OK. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I agree with your logic re: discrediting Imp being a good play for scum!me, though I don't remember how seriously people were taking Imp at that moment. I thought the filler was scummy because Imp posted more filler in AFM than FBYOR, and this reminded me of the former, but I'm not sure I explicitly said that in-thread.

You say I "started a wagon on you," but you already had two votes on you at the time. What do you mean?

I follow your logic re: voting sofanthiel not being a way to save webadict, but you may be overlooking something: with sofanthiel well in the lead, voting him wasn't a way to do anything; he would be lynched regardless. For a town player who had a strong opinion on which of the second-place contenders should be lynched, as I did, it would make sense to vote for one of them to help swing that vote. I did mention at the time that I would lynch sofanthiel over you if it somehow came to that:

My thought process is that anyone hiding an Emerald is scum

How did you arrive at that conclusion exactly?  For all we know, emeralds are nothing but fancy rocks for anyone who isn't you.  This means that the only aspect determining the value of hiding the fact of their possession is your alignment and whether they give you the capacity to do tremendous good or grave evil.  Revealing ownership of them says more about the player's view of you than their own role.

I'm going to vote Crystallizedmire for going quiet again.

You switch a lot without the best rationale.  EP, riddle me this: if Crystal had gone 100% radio silent since the post I'm quoting, would you seriously jeopardize the chance to lynch your suspect #1?  If it's pointless pressure, I don't doubt Crystal's ability to see right through it.

I don't think I'm doing that. I think you will be lynched regardless of whether the other lynch is Webadict or Crystallizedmire. If I'm wrong, and the choice is between you and Crystallizedmire, I will switch back to Crystallizedmire.

EBWOP: Switch back to you.

[Imp]

Re the discussion between EP and CM.  I have spotted an error that if I discuss, I expect stops their conversation.

Saying what I am talking about is not pro-town, because their conversation is pro-town.  We can read it for evidence later, it's great.

Web, I dedicate this comment to you, Up In Heaven.

But it's flat out true.  Later I'll revisit this, hope I didn't interrupt too much.

[Imp]

EuchreJack:

This stuff, how much are you willing to correct/confirm?

You may be kinda cool with an imp upset about you trying to get the apple/free up a way to direct a kill so you can kill 'my scum partner' or 'Toony who imp thinks is town, but has to die', because that imp looks townie to you, and that's as far as you think.

Thanks, but you should also remember, 'if imp seriously thinks I am anti-town, imp will destroy me, which if I'm town isn't pro-town, so I gotta get Imp on the same Page with me'.

If you are worried about "Imp, do not, must not, you cannot save Toony from me" - that's decently pro-town.  Way more pro-town than making me think you're trying to get the apple out of my hands.

Offered for free:  If I attempt to 'save' Toony from you, it'll be by means of the vote, because I think you're anti-town, and it'll be 'about Toony' only insofar as that is part of the evidence as your anti-townness.  It'll be because you're a potential serial killer with a 'killer chat' and a wincon of all living players in it, then kill em, maybe all at once.  For all I know, Toony's life is chained to yours.

I say, until you have way more town cred, you have no right to any more hostages.  Plus your kill risks freeing the mafiakill, the lynch is better.

I am aOK with you having 1 hostage, not super useful for an SK who can kill the chat.  If you take a second, I will discuss all your anti-town evidence, which I am not sure of.  I'm sure enough if you take a second hostage.

Take good care of Toony there.  Your life probably depends on it.

However, I do wonder, what if anything do you want to correct about my understanding?

And since you're better not be either executing Toony or inviting someone else to your chat N2, what other action, person I view as high in my list of likely anti-town, do you intend to do?  I'm still interested in hearing that Tric now has your color emerald D3.  However, if you can discuss something even townier to do, I'm listening.

[ToonyMan]

To clarify: Max and Toony, two of today's top suspects, have barely posted. It wouldn't be smart to end the day without giving them more time to post.

At least the posts we have made are easily digestible and to the point.

@Max:
If you're town I think Jack is more likely to be mafia than Elephant, although I think Elephant is still possible. Is there anything I'm missing here?

Both Jack and Elephant have been suspicious of Imp being third-party, but frankly that doesn't matter. Why waste brainpower on that.

It is still unexplained why I got another Wishbone after losing my first one last night. I can't explain it and nobody has given a good reason for this. We can assume this is because of at least one unclaimed action, most likely scum's doing. In the end I don't think this catches mafia, but it's something to keep in mind.

@Imp:
Can you use your infinite energy to give a comprehensive N1 claim guide? You did this for us in the previous game I was in with you and it would be a better use of your time I think.

[Elephant Parade]

To clarify: Max and Toony, two of today's top suspects, have barely posted. It wouldn't be smart to end the day without giving them more time to post.

At least the posts we have made are easily digestible and to the point.

I'll give you that.