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[Imp]

Now that I think about it my Bible Page is amazing for NJW because it's not like it goes away. Anybody who tries to interfere with the Bible Page is scum.

As I walk away to take that break, this calls me back.  If NJW is scum and Toony is too, then scum doesn't need to see the page, they know.  Fewer reasons to trade it between them, except to maybe keep control.  I'll mull on this, bye.

[ToonyMan]

How does Imp even post so much

I don't know.

@Imp:
Yes. It is pretty unlikely I am mafia unless I'm with NJW. This is why FoU is going after NJW now even though it's wrong. NJW randomized me and FoU last night. NJW has my Bible Page. NJW is the one player with the Secondary Wincon. The biggest hard evidences why I'm not mafia are via NJW. If NJW is town then I'm probably town. If NJW is mafia then I'm probably mafia. NJW doesn't see this because he wants to suspect me.

[NJW2000]

Imp:

First off, I didn't sign up to read War and Peace written by an overexcited internet addict. So don't post six times in a row with "NJW, please discuss". It doesn't make me want to. You're 25% of the posts, and more by volume. If this pace isn't your style, genuinely try going somewhere else, maybe MafiaUniverse or the mafiascum forums.

Ok.

I asked you, once, if you considered us giving someone the bible page and the apple (in order to very likely lock in a zero-kill night), less important than me likely but not certainly stopping the kill, or you taking the bible page, as you've offered to do (thereby quite possibly defusing the mafiakill magnet and letting it happen unimpeded).

As far as I could tell, your stance was that you were keeping the apple, and I could give you the page or not. I'm not going to look for where you did this, because I'm not going through four hundred posts. It would take me literal hours to find where you say things, so if I've misremembered at any point, I don't think anyone's going to blame me for that. At one point, you were thinking about giving me the apple, but then you decided against giving it to anyone. So you're not willing to have the apple be used alongside the page to stop the nightkill. Ok - you want it, fair enough. I just asked if that was the right idea. Maybe I didn't put it clearly enough - I was posting from phone.

I genuinely wanted to know about this, because I want to have reads on people influencing the game a lot, and I don't like the idea of getting caught out by a bussing play. I was interested in the apple because it would double my protection, and make the page useful N2 a lot more surely than anything else. You want to keep it - fine. I was interested in the motivations there. You accused me of trying to do something when I was interested in what your motivations were, which is pretty annoying. Look at my posts today - have I actually tried to get rid of the page? Have I asked to? I asked about your motivations for being willing to take it, and about your decision to keep the apple when literally anyone else could use it with the page to stop a kill. I haven't asked to get rid of the page.

I'm not waffling on the bible page. And after these 100 pages, there is no chance I'm trading the bible page for anything else, because it is my best chance of exiting the game early without letting down the people playing with me. But even before that, I wanted to keep it. I wanted to check what else could be done with it, and how to maximise the chance of preventing a nightkill, because that's potentially important to winning the game. I'm certainly not giving the bible page to someone who might defuse it - i.e. you. You don't seem clear on whether you would or not, or I've missed something in the textwalls.

I have never tried to trade the page.

I said this:

Imp: sorry if you've already answered this, but in your hands, the bible page may not still redirect kills to the holder. As such, you may not be able to stop a kill with the apple you hold. Am I right in thinking you believe your having the bible page and the apple is more important than the chance to prevent a nightkill?

Because you don't seem interested in giving the apple to someone else, but have offered to take the page, which would potentially make it unable to prevent a nightkill. As far as I can tell, that's the case. If I've missed something that explains this, it's because you've posted many thousands of words this week.

I didn't claim the second wincon because claiming it wouldn't help me win as town (in fact, it would impede it due to time wasted discussing it) and probably wouldn't help me win through that wincon (because it would be incriminating for them to target me so much to get me out the game).

I didn't have much time to submit a thoughtful night action - this was due to factors outside my control. I used the wishbone because I thought it would tell me stuff about the roles of dubious players and what they could do. I wasn't going to give you the bible page because I wanted to stop a mafiakill, not enable whatever stuff you can do with artefacts, as powering you up probably isn't as important as just stopping scum killing. I'm not talk about my night action further than this - I don't have many powers, and this was the closest thing to a useful one. This is the one aspect of my play I'm very comfortable telling people to pound sand about.

You've been right once this game about web - well done. You were wrong about stuff in your last game, and as far as I could tell it was universally agreed that people had to kill you to get you to stop taking over the thread. If you're as sure about me as you were about Web, your read on Web was luck or a bad day for them, though it didn't look that way to me. You're viewing the things that could suggest I'm scum with someone else as evidence that I'm scum, and the fact that I've taken the page as an interesting mystery. Right now, I really think you're suffering from confimation bias.



You seem to think I've tried to get rid of the page. I haven't. I've talked about having the apple. That's all.

[Imp]

You seem to think I've tried to get rid of the page. I haven't.

What's with you exploring this idea?

I asked about you being willing to take the bible page even though it may not draw the kill to you, when there is the option to block the kill n3 by giving both to idk, Crystallized or whatever.

[Imp]

Bleeeh I'll have more detailed thoughts later I don't feel like it.

I hope this makes you feel like it.  Need you.  Every player that dies messes me up.  I'm budgeted for anti-town.  If you're town, act it.  Pull out of your mood and help town, because town needs you.  It's been -days-.  You're no scummier than Max.  Read my advice to him.  Translate it to apply to yourself and use it.  You're better than this.  Save me from the scum, because I have to pick them out of the class.  I can give you extra rope, I did.  How the flip are you using it?  Apply this to yourself too.  You're town until you're not, town doesn't coast.  Fix this, so I don't have to see your town flip and be so disappointed.  There's still time, just know I'll pure read you to your core.  Show it in your play.  I don't really care about connection to NJW.  I trust my pure reads.  Give me lots to read?  Play normal for you?

Spoiler: Here's the N1 claims: (click to show/hide)

Hey, people can potentially have MANY actions.  How many?  How high can you count, and did they unlock that many yet?  Do not assume anyone is 'confirmed' of not doing anything else just because 'we think we know what they did'.  Read the day game, look for anti-town stuff at all times.  Look for 'and now I can finally kill them all' - which I don't know exists, but can't rule out.  But arson-like stuff, which might look like anything.

Also, every time I try to properly make this list, my mind screams no and stops me.  It's anti-town to do this 'right' according to my subconscious.  So you get a basic form of it, this is not imp-level work.  But scum are listening.  It is what you asked for, in a basic form.

Imp:  involved in the loss of two items Tric says were taken, yellow chaos emerald and Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass.  Got an apple.  Had something dup happen.

Tric:  Lost the two items Imp is involved in.  "I used my Magnifying Glass on webadict, no tricks apparent."  Claims to be completely action-less right now.

CM:  Claims able to steal an item, used on Toony, gain of wishbone.  Unexpectedly also gained Family Jewels, which EP claims to have lost.

Toony:  Claims detected 1 person with second wincon.  Separately, I don't understand this but, "That's right. The wishbone I got did this. I didn't use it last night and I lost it as well."  It sounds like Toony had a wishbone D1, didn't use it N2, lost it N2, got it back N2.  That sounds maybe possible to have happen, though I don't do stuff like that and I was not involved in this happening  Two separate wishbones are possible.  I don't know that ability as described exists, but it sounds reasonable for this game.

MS:  Acted on FoU to change an ability with FoU's consent and confirmation ability changed.  "I got a free copy of one of my powers."

EJ:  "I used my Invite Chat ability successfully. No action triggered me. And I mean NO action, not even a mod PM saying "Hey Jack, your chat invite was successful!" I had to log into the chat to see that it actually worked!"  "If you lynch me, I won't die, and you'll have to play through Day 2 again on Day 3."  "@Imp: I actually can not kill you, yet."

EP:  Confirms lost item which gained by CM, neither can explain the transfer.  "I invited Toonyman to my "Town Hall" groupchat last night. I picked him because I wanted him onside if he was town and he was a good target for my free-action AoE sphere cop ability if he wasn't."

FoU:  "I'm no longer vulnerable to EuchreJack's death"  "I will happily claim that my own night action is entirely confirmable, though. If anyone feels like they've been duped, please speak up."

NJW:  "I acted on FoU and Toony, and will say more later if necessary."  "I have the bible page."  "I wishboned toony and FoU and somehow lost the wishbone doing that… I don’t get it but maybe somebody else will."  "Ok. I have the second wincon - I win and leave the game if targeted by scum on three consecutive nights."  "I am genuinely town-aligned in my motivations here"  "I understand if that makes people trust me less, and it should. It shouldn’t make people trust me a LOT less though - I didn’t need to reveal this, I just wanted to get the discussion over."

[TricMagic]

You seem to think I've tried to get rid of the page. I haven't.

What's with you exploring this idea?

I asked about you being willing to take the bible page even though it may not draw the kill to you, when there is the option to block the kill n3 by giving both to idk, Crystallized or whatever.

You kind of skipped the question Imp. Even though you just quoted it.

[TricMagic]

Question. Euchrejack would have died if Fallacy died right? And then revived I'm guessing?

[Imp]

EBWOP, add to the claims, NJW also says has more than one wishbone.

[Imp]

Question. Euchrejack would have died if Fallacy died right? And then revived I'm guessing?

EJ never claimed that.  FoU claimed dies if EJ dies, and not an issue anymore.

[Crystalizedmire]

Hey, do you guys think that the wishbone Toony gained was NJW's?

[Maximum Spin]

My thoughts about removing Day sphere, what possible pro-town value can that have?  Interested in the answer, but if it's "I am clueless, random idea, no idea what would help," that's fine.  If you see some reason, I super want to know, but not enough for you to stay awake for.  Would you unvote for now to help prevent hammers?

My thought process was this: Tric's the only one who has claimed a kill action that I think is reasonably pro-town, but also has the Day sphere. My understanding, which may be wrong, was that Tric claimed that the double-lynch action from before had Day and Kill spheres. In that case, removing Day would make it a usable nightkill that could kill the supposedly invincible Jack if necessary, but wouldn't do so any faster than just lynching him again the next Day since Tric probably couldn't use it the same night. So basically, I was spitballing on the subject of pro-town kills since ToonyMan had mentioned killing Jack, but, as you saw, I ended up concluding that there doesn't seem to be any good way to do that that works out better than removing the Kill sphere.

I'll unvote while I continue to catch up with the thread.

[TricMagic]

Also the Limitation and it being 1-shot. Removing any of the positive spheres doesn't recharge it. You'd need to remove Limitation from it. Which honestly is a bit of a waste given the only issue is it's empty right now.

[Maximum Spin]

Trade Billy the Kid's Six-Shooter for Yellow Chaos Emerald

Confirm this has a kill sphere, yep.

Confirm I have never been able to do anything about items and probably never will, so this one is staying.

Fascinating.

You hold the Page.

You know all your abilities.

You can DM the mod with any question in the world.

I do not believe for one hot second that you have not yourself already thought of asking the mod to confirm everything about how the abilities that you can see you currently have work together.

[etc.]

I find it difficult to ever not scumread NJW2000, but I don't think this line of reasoning is valid. He just seems to be pointing out that, if the page changes hands again, it doesn't draw the kill again. It's kind of a bad question, but I don't currently see malice. The logical answer from you is just "no, I don't want it, you keep it".

Okay, followup, no, the next ANGERY post didn't strike me very well and I see some possibility of malice.

NQT, can the Mafiakill kill mafia, and/or be redirected onto the user themselves? Last I checked, the mafiakill usually can't kill mafia.

What universe are you living in. The mafia can usually ALWAYS kill mafia, that's one of the benefits of town redirection/bussing, or hilarious events like Web's Supernatural where the mafia come up with a 3D chess gambit and accidentally lose two dimensions halfway through.

Imp is probably going to scumread you for this, I tend to think you're just being your self, but man.
Imp... three posts in a row have got to be enough in most cases. I understand most of your arguments here and basically think you have a point, but I don't think it's an effective way to make it.

It's sad.  Noticing that inconsistency about NJW's second wincon claim.  It supports Toony's claim.

It's a low likelihood sphere choice for any of us to choose, I think.  Odds are there's not 2 of us that really have it.

If someone claims it, then scum partner of toony NJW doesn't have to say they have it, and probably no real second claimer.

If nobody else claims it, NJW has that weird sounding, fake sounding to me wincon claim that doesn't feel real.

Imp. I noticed when you made that post with a bunch of words that happen to be spheres scattered through it. The one where you mention, uh, I think it was slow being corrupted. I also noticed you included "secondary" in there. I filed that all away for later, but I wasn't sure how to take it. If you are claiming second wincon, let me know that right now so that I can vote NJW with you. Even if you think I'm scum, or even just know that scum are certainly listening... I don't see how that directly benefits scum to know that, certainly not more than blowing a fakeclaim. But I'm not going to follow this up based on my vague interpretation of your vague implications. I need more certainty than that this game. If you'd rather keep that information and pursue a different avenue of proof, I can understand that, but I'm just saying, if you were trying to make a subtle claim before, it's probably better to be more direct.

Hey, do you guys think that the wishbone Toony gained was NJW's?

Do you have a wishbone right now or not? This is pretty important. I was under the impression that one wishbone was moving around a lot, but if you have one and ToonyMan has one, that's a different story.

Also the Limitation and it being 1-shot. Removing any of the positive spheres doesn't recharge it. You'd need to remove Limitation from it. Which honestly is a bit of a waste given the only issue is it's empty right now.

Hm. That's an excellent point. I was expecting changing the action would refill it because of how my own actions work but they're Different.
However, it doesn't matter because I'm not currently planning to do that thing that I can't usefully do anyway, anyway.

Wow, is that the end of the thread? I guess a lot of that was basically filler. I guess I can post now, although I keep feeling like I forgot something, over and OVER again, it's very annoying.

[ToonyMan]

Hey, do you guys think that the wishbone Toony gained was NJW's?

Well normally when you use a Wishbone it gets split in half right? So NJW still having a Wishbone after makes sense to me. I don't understand why I would get another one after you stole the one NJW gave me D1 though. If this is a property of the Wishbone then it's hidden information which doesn't seem right because NJW would be aware of this fact and could clear up this mystery.

Spoiler: Here's the N1 claims: (click to show/hide)

Hey, people can potentially have MANY actions.  How many?  How high can you count, and did they unlock that many yet?  Do not assume anyone is 'confirmed' of not doing anything else just because 'we think we know what they did'.  Read the day game, look for anti-town stuff at all times.  Look for 'and now I can finally kill them all' - which I don't know exists, but can't rule out.  But arson-like stuff, which might look like anything.

Also, every time I try to properly make this list, my mind screams no and stops me.  It's anti-town to do this 'right' according to my subconscious.  So you get a basic form of it, this is not imp-level work.  But scum are listening.  It is what you asked for, in a basic form.

Imp:  involved in the loss of two items Tric says were taken, yellow chaos emerald and Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass.  Got an apple.  Had something dup happen.

Tric:  Lost the two items Imp is involved in.  "I used my Magnifying Glass on webadict, no tricks apparent."  Claims to be completely action-less right now.

CM:  Claims able to steal an item, used on Toony, gain of wishbone.  Unexpectedly also gained Family Jewels, which EP claims to have lost.

Toony:  Claims detected 1 person with second wincon.  Separately, I don't understand this but, "That's right. The wishbone I got did this. I didn't use it last night and I lost it as well."  It sounds like Toony had a wishbone D1, didn't use it N2, lost it N2, got it back N2.  That sounds maybe possible to have happen, though I don't do stuff like that and I was not involved in this happening  Two separate wishbones are possible.  I don't know that ability as described exists, but it sounds reasonable for this game.

MS:  Acted on FoU to change an ability with FoU's consent and confirmation ability changed.  "I got a free copy of one of my powers."

EJ:  "I used my Invite Chat ability successfully. No action triggered me. And I mean NO action, not even a mod PM saying "Hey Jack, your chat invite was successful!" I had to log into the chat to see that it actually worked!"  "If you lynch me, I won't die, and you'll have to play through Day 2 again on Day 3."  "@Imp: I actually can not kill you, yet."

EP:  Confirms lost item which gained by CM, neither can explain the transfer.  "I invited Toonyman to my "Town Hall" groupchat last night. I picked him because I wanted him onside if he was town and he was a good target for my free-action AoE sphere cop ability if he wasn't."

FoU:  "I'm no longer vulnerable to EuchreJack's death"  "I will happily claim that my own night action is entirely confirmable, though. If anyone feels like they've been duped, please speak up."

NJW:  "I acted on FoU and Toony, and will say more later if necessary."  "I have the bible page."  "I wishboned toony and FoU and somehow lost the wishbone doing that… I don’t get it but maybe somebody else will."  "Ok. I have the second wincon - I win and leave the game if targeted by scum on three consecutive nights."  "I am genuinely town-aligned in my motivations here"  "I understand if that makes people trust me less, and it should. It shouldn’t make people trust me a LOT less though - I didn’t need to reveal this, I just wanted to get the discussion over."

Wow text I'm willing to read. Good job Imp.

PPE:

Hey, do you guys think that the wishbone Toony gained was NJW's?

Do you have a wishbone right now or not? This is pretty important. I was under the impression that one wishbone was moving around a lot, but if you have one and ToonyMan has one, that's a different story.

I received another Wishbone after losing the one NJW gave me on D1. NQT had to PM me a second time to tell me because they forgot, it was a minor MOD error.

From my understanding NJW, Crystal, and myself all have a Wishbone now. Nobody else has claimed having one.

[ToonyMan]

Wishbone has mimic and cascade so if it has a property of giving itself to its owner if you were to lose it that would not surprise me. It would also explain why I got another one after Crystal took mine on N1. Again, NJW could clear this mystery up if this is the case.