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[hector13]

I was urgently instructed to hammer, and, for the sake of not wasting everybody's time, I trusted the judgment of the player I'm allied with, similar to how I had to make a decision without Crystal's input yesterday.

Can you speak about how you initially suspected CM when you were teamed together, and how that changed to trust them enough to hammer someone at their behest without you fully understanding the game state?

What are your thoughts about this Imp?

PPE: you maybe answered that already Imp.

[TricMagic]

Honestly I like this Jack. SK they may be, they do be hunting for survival. We've got until tuesday to work things out. Main question would be who killed N1. (And no Crystal for the last time it wasn't me. My Unlynchable status is from not killing anyone. And Given I just used Voice, I'll be Unlynchable tomorrow too. No night action.)

[TricMagic]

Read and understood that last post Imp, thanks.

[Crystalizedmire]

Could've possible been webadict but I'm pretty sure we ruled that one out. Could've been Imp. Could've also been Euchre Jack if they're lying. Could've NQT if there are multi actors. Imp is the probably the most likely killer to me because all their claims are after their supposed target claimed.

[Crystalizedmire]

EBWOP: After Tricmagic of course

[Imp]

What are your thoughts about this Imp?

PPE: you maybe answered that already Imp.

yeah, but summary so you don't have to hunt, Qua.

I thought everything from 'what if God thinks it is funny to have a solo scum with a solo scumchat that an alien crashes into, haha, scum-sof, how do you deal with this one?' to 'sof is in two chats, one scum and maybe not solo, and another with a town-ally, and scum-sof is being really careful and confused in that town-ally chat'.

To stuff that involved CM having to be lying.

I didn't believe any of it, necessarily, didn't disbelieve it either.

Sof's vote behavior, very, very bad in my eyes.  I don't like that from town, but understand it's considered pro-town, from town.  Sof is not town, as far as I understand.  I think that's very bad behavior, even from a survivor.  Or fine behavior, from anti-town, they can do whatever they want.  But I think that from sof's viewpoint, the possibility that sof might be killing the only townie should have been considered.  So I read that as 'sof's willing to risk killing the only/last townie, to avoid their own death, knowing they themself are not a townie'.  Granted, -maybe- sof is some weird robot townie, but I suspect 'threats to humanity' is significant, though maybe not.

However, talking with God - God answered my questions about the teaming thing in a way that makes me feel it is probably not God's intention for me to think that God would design a game where God put pro-town and anti-town in the same chat like that, boom.  That's not expressly ruled out, but instead of discussing that, God discussed true teams, and reminded me that any player is allowed to lie to any other player, even if it's pointless, and then discussed true teams and wincons considerably more.

So I'm chaining a lot of my before-now opinion of sof to my opinion of CM.  And CM's known behavior is acceptable to me.  If I needed to abduct someone interesting, okay, N1, the unvoteable TM is clearly potentially interesting and not obviously anti-town.  And releasing TM for web, and the reasoning given, again not objectively anti-town, though you sure freaked me out with your initial D3 behavior and how the interplay between you and Jack and qua is playing out.

[Imp]

ebwop:  you and Jack and qua is playing out = the three of TM and Jack and Qua is playing out.

[TricMagic]

One thing to consider is that webadict knew, going in, that they would revive when they were lynched. In which case it is not going to be easy to figure out. As is I'm looking for scum lynches and informative lynches. Not just an SK lynch, since that doesn't provide information.

hint hint

[Imp]

My recent read changes:

I didn't know hammer would go to 5.

I thought TM could pull the double vote and hammer at any time, with support of Qua and Jack.  That was my biggest lean towards 'no, they can't all 3 be a team if TM can do that, it's game over if that's so'.

Once double vote was proved, I still didn't think hammer would go to 5.  I thought it was a probable hammer race between sof vs Jack+Qua.

Jack wasn't voting at all.  I wondered if it was a trick, TM didn't get 2 votes, TM stole Jack's vote, it is smoke and mirrors maybe?  They need me to shift to get their hammer on CM?  (Now that I know we need 5 to hammer, I know no vote was stolen).

When I saw sof post and not instahammer, I almost unvoted.  But I still thought it was a hammer race between Jack and CM, and that sof vs Jack+Qua, or sof vs the bluff of TM lied about source of other vote+Qua+needs 1 more to hammer.

If TM lied, I wasn't averse to that hammer.

Once I saw lots of talking, I started to think maybe I should unvote, because why are none hammering?  Let's for sure get this talking.

I was interrupted in posting my unvote by sof's vote, and then dithered for minutes trying to decide if there was a hammer or not.

TM seems more town to me now than before.

I still want Jack out today.

I'm confused about Qua, and concerned about reading/thinking issues there.

If TM/Qua/Jack is a anti-town team, the lack of a hammer isn't proof, and team isn't ruled out by 'but they'd insta win', especially because TM could tell the other two 'so, we can't hammer either, so play cool'.

[TricMagic]

As a question before bed, would scum remain in team chat if they got banished/abducted/what have you?

[Imp]

One thing to consider is that webadict knew, going in, that they would revive when they were lynched. In which case it is not going to be easy to figure out. As is I'm looking for scum lynches and informative lynches. Not just an SK lynch, since that doesn't provide information.

hint hint

That also bugs me, because we get info from lynches this game.  It's not just a role name, it's abilities - note that we may not be seeing true role flips when people die.  God was carefully clear with me, that I should not presume that info I see in roleflips is 'confirmed by God' info, to the point that I should ask about what I see in roleflips instead of presume it is true, if I have questions, or I can run with whatever I want.

So we will see abilities and get that info from the flip.  Also, we get a anti-town out of the game.  I am not sure that this 'blue' banshee who is called known to be malevolent is not in fact a flavor of God's possible scum.

I am not sure that a bullet, even silver, can stop what is essentially non-physical.  I bet God's own elimination can though.  I fear strongly that Jack could truly be on a team, and they could know what can and can't stop Jack, and think 'a silver bullet's a fine thing for Jack to face, if the person with that bullet's even on the side of town, and not on Jack's team.

I am not sure of Qua.

And I think the fear of abduction is a very non-town fear.

So I'm a really concerned player here.

And as CM has pointed out, when we see Jack's flip, we can (if flips are factual, which I have to say 'I do not know if flips are factual, it seems God-intended that I not know, based on answers to questions I have gotten - maybe some of you who may be better at asking wish to ask your own questions about this?)  ... um, if Jack appears UNABLE to do direct kills, then we know someone else killed Qua N1.  But the wording...  Cause Qua could have triggered their own death in several ways, if that flip's true, depending on what the target did and what was done to the target, if sanctuary was used by Qua N1.

And seeing Jack's roleflip is SUPER INFORMATIVE about how that might play against Qua, and if we can rule out Jack as a possible killer of Qua N1 from either direct or even by triggering Qua's sanctuary (and if even roleflip abilities can be believed).

So yeah, I'm a really confused player here.

[Maximum Spin]

As a question before bed, would scum remain in team chat if they got banished/abducted/what have you?

That depends on the precise nature of the teamchat. If players notionally have to meet to communicate, then they would be unable to communicate while imprisoned in any way. If they can communicate across distance, then that's not necessarily so.

[Imp]

sof you have a lot of unanswered questions.  I expect a lot more of you.  I expect you to get back here when you can and answer stuff.  CM has answered a lot, maybe you need sleep, it's still a weekend, we have time.  But oh gosh I'm expecting way so much more from you than what you've already done.

nqt and my lack of chasing for more info is affected by my deep concern about how many town there are this game.

I tracked nqt N2, I saw the expected target, I see the inspect claim, I know there's no redirect because I tracked them to the target (plus no other redirects implied yet this game), and the target doesn't even deny the guilty inspect.  Okay, a lot of us are clearly not actually town, and nqt is behaving in a way that is not clearly anti-town.  Given the small pool of possible town, that's as far as I wanted to press today.

[Imp]

And sof, if you are thinking you don't know what to answer, too much to read to find the questions asked of you, just explain your story, working backwards from N2 action and result, then earlier.  Thoughts, actions, information to share.

If you don't want to find the questions, just assume you're being asked about everything you've done this game, and get to answering, please.  Know this includes your reasons for suspicion of CM within the shared chat, and includes other things about your interactions with CM.  You have a lot to answer, so just start answering, please.

[Imp]

TM:

Imp, it's scummy as a question cause it's inherently aggressive. Jack flips, we have no new info. Hector's said it in so many words, but Jack flipping doesn't actually solve anything today.

It solves a lot for me, because I don't know your alignment.  To me, I'm concerned I'm possibly seeing a TM-Jack team, maybe with a Qua recruit, so even up to three.

There's only 7 of us, so that's shockingly scary to me.

Getting rid of Jack, who I still believe could be part of a team....  We are intended to be Maximally Spun here, and to understand our -own- roles and not others' roles.  Colors are what God pleases.  Many of the game mechanics are what God pleases them to be.

I think I have a deep understanding that our expectations may even be used against us.  I don't have many expectations, I'm still fairly new, I have other problems/confusions.

But I am genuinely concerned Jack could be team, or even solo anti-town.

One of the things I have discussed with God was ideas about the possibility of few town, even one.  Few anti-town, even one.  And loads of third party others.  And God said something about ablative town protection.  God did not say 'hah, I wouldn't do that'.

I don't expect the game ends if we launch Jack, though I think it could end there with a town win.  But I think Jack has a team.  I fear you're on it.  I fear Qua may also be on it, or on it instead of you.

I also fear that CM/sof are a anti-town team, who may also have an additional requirement to actually win.  But I'm rather less scared of that, the way they're playing doesn't make much sense for that.

And I'm worried about this focus on 'humanity'.  I want the known anti-town removed before we risk making the 'who might be human among us' pool too small.

And I checked on if God would do what EuchreJack claimed, about adjusting the wincon.  God's answer was really colorful, maybe we should ask about that in thread.  However, it's not a full flat no, but given that at the time this 'request' appears to have been made, we still had Hector13 (God, please forgive me, but at the time I refer to, Qua was a corpse, and I do mean this other being, I think?) waiting as a replacement.

I'll just have hector replace more people if I need to.

I don't believe the conditions, which seemed extensive and complex, were met for Jack's wincon to be changed during play because of a request/complaint/threat.

Let's see how the deacon handles the banshee, and see what we actually do learn.  We have a lot of people, if Jack isn't on a team fighting to keep Jack alive, to finish solving this.  I do not at all think town loses today if we eliminate Jack.