Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[sofanthiel]

That’s not better, it’s condensing what I’d already posted into one post, plus a bit of extra justification from more recent Imp posts.

It's mostly the new stuff, hector; what's been condensed from past posts of yours comprises less than 20% of the updated logic in that defense.  I'll probably be keeping my vote firmly on Crystal for the time being.

[Egan_BW]

And why will you leave your vote there? I see you haven't really pressured her OR given an explanation for why she's acting scummy. All I see is a joke vote because Imp messed up the numbers.

[sofanthiel]

Well, it's not easy to analyze someone with four posts, especially when two of them are tangential responses to a comedic RVS.  This is half pressure, half process of elimination, and hopefully subject to change.

[hector13]

I’d really like you to answer:

Come on, it wasn't even 3 minutes!

As a sidenote, Max's willingness to answer questions seems rather atypical, though I've also noticed that he's a lot more cooperative when town and prefers to mess around as scum.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I'm actually just a lot more cooperative when I'm randomly in a cooperative mood.

Or so you claim.  My observation holds true within every single game we've both participated in, and actions many words speak louder than... few words or something like that.

I will stand by this till death, or at least before I'm proven wrong. Either one works.

It had only been three minutes, but it would’ve popped up as a new response when you pressed the post button. If it didn’t it might mean you missed it, and I didn’t want that to happen.

The response is not good enough, however. You said that what Max has done so far is enough for you to consider him town, while all I have done was meta-commentary and chat on strategy… which is how I would characterize his posts so far.

I wanted specific posts that made you think Max is town, and you somewhat hypocritically offer meta justification for it.

Why is Max townread when he does commentary on meta and strategy, while I’m not?

Why do you think Egan and Imp are town, and of the two players you are less sure of, why are you voting CM instead of me?

That’s not better, it’s condensing what I’d already posted into one post, plus a bit of extra justification from more recent Imp posts.

It's mostly the new stuff, hector; what's been condensed from past posts of yours comprises less than 20% of the updated logic in that defense.  I'll probably be keeping my vote firmly on Crystal for the time being.

No, it comprises 100% of my intent to vote Imp, which hasn’t changed since. The extra stuff is just that: extra.

Contrast with Max who has offered 0% explicit justification for their vote on Imp so far.


@Imp

You have posted incessantly about your plan, even after it was rejected by the mod and most of the other players in the game.

When I say you’re defending the scheme, I don’t mean justifying that we do it, I mean justifying having come up with it, even though it has been made very clear we, as players, are not doing it.

If I were a cynical man, I would say you’re clearly active lurking by looking as though you’re posting walls of text to make it appear as though you’re contributing, but actually aren’t, and I don’t think you’ve been particularly pokey at players either, despite your inflated post count.

In short, you’re here, but not scumhunting.

[Imp]

Spoiler:  what I respond to from sof (click to show/hide)

How does your question help your wincon?

Just a touch of lighthearted amusement in the downtime.

Now, Impitty Imp, what do you think about the following:

This is an interesting comment as well, suggesting sof may not feel as sure that sof has the same awareness and information as I do.

Why could this be, hm?

Additionally, why did you bring up my prediction of Tric's desire to take action even after my explanation?  You haven't acknowledged it, which may be because you simply missed that post, so I'm pointing your attention towards it and ensuring you're up to date.

So, you say:

To be frank, it was meta.  I specifically remember Tric slightly altering the rules to accommodate an oversight/mistake in Catsrulefia, so I knew that, if your strategy had the capacity to work (which I believed at the time), Tric would likely interfere in some way

Great, so... at surface that means, you should react to it like town players.  I wasted time, maybe for scummy reasons or some mistake/misunderstanding/flaw that may or may not be related to my having scummy or townie reasons.

Or react to it based on your own intentions, focus, and wincon.

I guess everything you're doing since is working towards that wincon, and it's just up to us to properly read your intent through your behavior and expressed focus.

1, answer my RVS and vote Max.
2, appear to approve my plan, noting it will work unless the mod will or already did spice stuff up, call us golden, and suggest you didn't read my idea that closely by suggesting a different order to inspect in than Tric's player list I quoted.
3, say we should do my plan for tonight, even after the mod spoke up, and after saying the mod would or already did spice stuff up.  Wow.  Hey, sof, please explain why you said we should do this at that point?  How does doing this in your mind help town?
4, respond to my moving my vote back to you and saying you revealed yourself, by a request for info for you about what I noticed, despite my asking if anyone else had noticed, with a stated reason related to self defense.
5, state you see what I'm doing and ask another player what they think of my accusation of you.
6, comment on the player's answer as odd, and discuss your own understanding... but in a way that reads as if you and I perhaps don't have the same role PM.
7, ask Max to explain how he thought my plan could still be game breaking, something Max felt adequately explained, as did Egan and Hec, with me and you both really wanting to know (You want to know relatively few things, very self focused for a townie is my point.)
8, pure fluff, claiming you have nothing but time.
9, vote change to Cry, quoting a mistake I made in my formatting of my first attempt to vote and activity track post in this thread, but not directly calling it a mistake, asking for it to be corrected (it already had been, EBWOP) just saying you jump on a 'bandwagon' that existed in not-corrected numbers, immediately corrected in a following post.  So, I think this is also fluff or an indirect request for others to notice that error of mine, already corrected by the time you react to it.
10, pointing out I could be scum, and stating you're more interested in my vote on you.
11, "scratch that", whatever you don't mean anymore about your interest about my vote on you.
12, Confirming your earlier comment was meta and discussing Max's behavior as atypical but possibly a town tell for Max
13, I think this is fluff/joking towards an answer from Max and one from myself.
14, you provide town reads on the 3 other most active players beside yourself (you're second most active poster in our game, but.... look at what you're posting, I see more self defense and redirection than scumhunting.  You also call me more or less town, and Spin more or less town, and Egan too, despite having challenged my actions as being maybe scummy, as if you're covering both bases and looking for opinions to side with, rather than form your own.
15, fluff, RVS-like question.
16, joking with me, defending yourself, and praising Hec for taking a firmer stance of stated intent to vote Imp
17, pure fluff and taking time to answer with a not really an answer.
18, disagreement with Hec's assessment of Hec's post you praised, plus confirming you will continue for now to vote Cry (a vote you haven't explained except at the time to call joining the bandwagon, of my earlier mentioned and already corrected error of counts)
19, explaining your scumhunting in posts 16 and 18.

[Imp]

@Imp

You have posted incessantly about your plan, even after it was rejected by the mod and most of the other players in the game.

When I say you’re defending the scheme, I don’t mean justifying that we do it, I mean justifying having come up with it, even though it has been made very clear we, as players, are not doing it.

If I were a cynical man, I would say you’re clearly active lurking by looking as though you’re posting walls of text to make it appear as though you’re contributing, but actually aren’t, and I don’t think you’ve been particularly pokey at players either, despite your inflated post count.

In short, you’re here, but not scumhunting.

Interesting.  Well, I do hope regardless of how this day ends, that those alive D2 will find much of use in these conversations and how we all react to them and each other.

[sofanthiel]

Why is Max townread when he does commentary on meta and strategy, while I’m not?

Look, I'm not particularly successful or experienced at day 1 reads that can only be based on others' conduct and no game theory.  Unless a player makes an obvious slip-up, I don't have mountains of evidence for some and unquestionable faith in others; all of you are roughly the same, with the only differences being minuscule crevices and bumps.  I do, however, have to come to a decision based on all of the information available to me.  Yes, I may be using meta knowledge to clear Max, and yes, you may even find it hypocritical, but the matter of fact is that spending most of one's early posts discussing how the game is played and utilizing external knowledge of the players to crudely assess their alignments are radically different things.

Wow.  Hey, sof, please explain why you said we should do this at that point?  How does doing this in your mind help town?

You focus too much on the win condition, mentioning it as the sole motivator behind all my actions.  The reasoning for such a proposal is stated in the message you're linking: fun!

6, comment on the player's answer as odd, and discuss your own understanding... but in a way that reads as if you and I perhaps don't have the same role PM.

No, the thing I regarded as odd was the entire conversation prior to Max's arrival and the presence of Tric's response to a non-existent exploit (thought, as it later turned out, that behavior still broke the game in a sense, which is what Tric was referring to all along).

[hector13]

but the matter of fact is that spending most of one's early posts discussing how the game is played and utilizing external knowledge of the players to crudely assess their alignments are radically different things.

Could you explain the difference?

Does this also apply to your reads for Imp, Egan, CM, and myself?

[Imp]

We seem to be settling down for the night.  Since hammers can happen and I'm not sure we get much more to analyze, offering this now:

My reads of everyone:

Sof:  Most likely scum for odd behavior, odd focus, lack of scumhunting.  Noting this is a joke game... I dunno.  I am not a game player for all I play games.  I even meant to go into this one jokey myself.  But I think I see several meta and in-play scumreads.  Detailed analysis of play here.

Max:  Before this game, Max had already burned my brain instead of eating it and is null to me.  However, he claimed boredom, gave a read of my odd behavior that looks reasonable for Max to state, explored the idea from a reality viewpoint, judged it bad for the game garbage, voted me, commented on alignment with Egan, answered the question from sof and I when pressed to explain their view of the break, identifies why the reality of my plan is a null read, clarifies their view of the break to a change of game type, offers me an impression of an error in my thinking, notes they'd have liked my plan more if they were mafia.  For Max, this is a decent town read.  Me, who thinks I can't read Max at all, thinks Max seems townie.

Egan:  Nice playstyle, looking forward to playing beside again.  Decent mix of social and solving focus.  Balanced viewpoints, good reasoning.  Attempts to figure me out, offering me multiple likely approaches to increase my cooperation and involvement.  Small comments on most players, retaining balance between social and evaluation focus.  Has and states opinions in an open and inclusive way.  Strong town feel.

Hector:  Nice playstyle, I feel quite challenged by.  Expresses displeasure at mechanics focus, to level of protest.  Brief mention of own impression of mechanics involved and that some things go unsaid.  Mild pressure on me to not delay for any time, state ideas and opinions now (nope, I wanted to hear what others said.  I can say plenty at any time until hammered or day ended).  Focuses pressure for me to communicate without prepping for immediate hammer.  Much focus on me, some focus on others, encouraging to post more.  Responded to Sof's challenge/reaction to focus on me by showing more directly how focused already was and shifting more direct focus to sof.  Has a nice row with sof, helps us read both a little better, however, some elements of skilled player poking at weaknesses, as opposed to actually going for a strong town win.  I have a strong feel Egan is way holding back here, and maybe not because D1 and nature of game.  This feels somewhat like really good player holding up a town face, so I hope players explore this D2+.

Cry:  Before this game, have recently played with.  Seems typical for D1 play, is a quieter player.  Answers my RVS question.  Evaluates Imp as likely town for reason imp's plan is unfun for scum [cry, offering answers here... I hardly understand how to 'play for fun' in a game like this and would indeed eagerly follow a boring strat to win and feel highly interested while doing so.  However, it is unlikely I'd ever choose a focus that I evaluate as likely to make the game unfun for a mod (or other players - except this is a competitive game and most people don't like to lose, so to play 'well' I think I kinda have to), we need mods and other players desperately, without them there are no games.  Doesn't mean I can't mess up though) and reads sof as null for 'not wanting to commit to the plan' but to my reading of sof, sof said do it... maybe with sarcasm?  Not sure.  But null-reads sof because of it.  Listens to Max's reason why Imp's play is unfun for all, calls imp likely town for analysis though could be scum since plan isn't fun for anyone.  Votes Sof for not appearing to scum hunt and for only voting twice.  Explains why they didn't like idea of townbloc.  Small town read.

Summing it up:

Most scummy to most townie:

Sof - very scum-like to me
Hec - subtle, if scum this player's scary good.  Small scum read, mostly for going for low-hanging fruit only (but it'd D1.... what else to do?)
Cry - small town read, but very few posts
Max - I can't read Max, but feels town now.
Egan - strong town feel

[Imp]

EBWOP:

In the middle of discussing Hec, I state, "I have a strong feel Egan is way holding back here, and maybe not because D1 and nature of game."  I meant to say "I have a strong feel Hec is way holding back here, and maybe not because D1 and nature of game."  I was thinking and comparing the two, but meant to type Hec.

[Maximum Spin]

Honestly, you shaped up and I don't really want to lynch Imp today. At this exact moment I feel like we are best off lynching Crymea or Sofa King.

[hector13]

EBWOP:

In the middle of discussing Hec, I state, "I have a strong feel Egan is way holding back here, and maybe not because D1 and nature of game."  I meant to say "I have a strong feel Hec is way holding back here, and maybe not because D1 and nature of game."  I was thinking and comparing the two, but meant to type Hec.

I wasn’t fibbing when I said I have limited time to dedicate to mafia, and the time I do have also needs to be for other diversions too. It’ll usually be late in the day (like after midnight forum time) that it happens, except an hour or two in the middle of the day.

The last game I played I also apparently upset a newer player to the point they sabotaged the game, and my reads other than that were also pants. Consequently I feel I need a bit more consideration in my game, for all the meanings of the word.

Honestly, you shaped up and I don't really want to lynch Imp today. At this exact moment I feel like we are best off lynching Crymea or Sofa King.

He says, still voting for Imp…

I’d prefer Imp over sofanthiel atm - pending sofanthiel’s response, I guess - so you’ll have to convince me.

Imp suggesting I’m going after low-hanging fruit bothers me a bit, when really the only other options for pressure are you (the abyss) and CM, whose main point against appears to be that they’ve posted seldom. I’m not going to get anything from the void or from someone who isn’t here.

[Crystalizedmire]

Votes Sof for not appearing to scum hunt and for only voting twice.

To clarify, I don't find them suspicious because of the number of times they've voted, I have find them suspicious because both of those votes seemed to be jokey votes, not a genuine attempt at scumhunting.

[Maximum Spin]

you (the abyss)

Oh look, I'm also weak to flattery today.

I don't think I've seen scum Imp yet, right? But this is certainly consistent with town Imp to me: a bit of a tendency to get stuck in a rut. There's a certain overlap with similar things I've said about a couple of other players in games you were in before. Like if you think back to that Procedural game where we were scum together...
I'm absolutely not unwilling to lynch Imp since, like I said, I don't have any reason to think Imp would actually be different as scum, but so far I'm not seeing it. And I feel like I've noticed before that you can tend to take it personally when somebody doesn't get you - pretty sure you had a row with NJW2000 at least once - so I want to caution you a little from being too locked in on Imp, since you DO seem like your townself to me. I'll even commit to saying that knowing I might end up being embarrassingly wrong.

Similarly, I think Imp has a point that sofanthiel does seem within the same general subcontinent of what I've seen of his mafia play. There's a not-quite-total-engagement there that I don't like. And I just have nothing to say about Crymea at all right now, so those two are the ones I feel most suspicious of.

But apart from that, you know I have a thing about changing my vote, and I just don't quite know what to do with it yet.

[Egan_BW]

Interesting.  Well, I do hope regardless of how this day ends, that those alive D2 will find much of use in these conversations and how we all react to them and each other.

What are the odds that there is no day 2 because we eject the lone scum immediately?