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[Imp]

Evaluation.

I have no idea how Cry reacts, whoops.  But Cry hasn't posted since game started... less than 7 hours ago.  Talk about null read and no time to waste.

But sof had an interesting pair of reactions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mentioned that mod would fix if needed.  mentioned gold -

Anyone see any flaws?  Anyone want to discuss changes?  Anyone wanna protest?

Sounds like a plan to me!  Unless Tric decides to spice things up (or already has), we're golden... Get it?

I'll just lay this out because somebody has to eventually:
sofanthiel -> Max -> Imp -> hector -> Egan -> Crystal -> sofanthiel, once again.

- then encouraged us to use my plan for the night.

I say we stick to Imp's idea for tonight; there's still much we can gain from this ourobirdos inspection, even if the result is a day of confusing !!FUN!!  That's what this game is all about, remember?

Seemed very calm.  Interested, interacting... I haven't seen much of sof, but... interesting.  Sof's reaction to me... interesting.

Also, I quoted the mod with our order of joining the game.  And suggested we use that as our order of inspects.  Sof... puts out a suggested order... for a reason, (bolding mine!)...

I'll just lay this out because somebody has to eventually:
sofanthiel -> Max -> Imp -> hector -> Egan -> Crystal -> sofanthiel, once again.

which suggests that if sof read my posts carefully, sof missed that large quote part.  Missed a lot of my discussion that focused on me and egan as likely scum targets and only mentioned sof as a reasonable nk target for if-egan-scum... so what did sof appear to focus on?

Sounds like a plan to me!  Unless Tric decides to spice things up (or already has), we're golden... Get it?

Moments before Tric does step in and state that mod power will be used if needed... spicing stuff up.  That's awful meta though, and I had not not not not intended to play chicken with anyone but my fellow birb players.  But I am deeply concerned about possible scum focus from our muddy buddy bird, so cool and golden.

And that's the main reveal I see about sof.  Sadly, it's entwined in possible meta stuff.  I'm definitely still watching, but sof's showing the steel reserve of a psychopath, I like it!  Be sof town or scum.

Max says he sees value in my ploy, even translated to tracking.  He was asked to explain why, but hasn't even mentioned it yet:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A tracking circle still "works" in the sense that it can still be game-breaking

Mind chewing it up and spitting it out in a few brief sentences?

But Max says stuff.  So hard to read Max, for me and probably the entire universe.

Egan reads town-lean to me.  I like how Egan's challenging me, and also appreciate, in game and out, the reminder to play, and cooperate with the mod-stated goals of the game.  Outside of that, in game, I like how Egan's chewing at details and looking for evidence.

Hector13 has the fewest posts after Crystal-the-silent-, but 3 posts is a lot for the first few hours of D1.  The content of those posts, reasonable town focus, Hec reads town-lean to me.

Requesting us all to try and avoid a hammer until close to end of day, let's give people chances to discuss and even speak, some of us haven't said a word yet.

[Crystalizedmire]

Maximum Spin, Hecter13, and Crystalizedmire, shall we form a flock and fly together?  High over town, looking far and down, watching other birds wander and frown?  Why or why not, try or try not?

I wouldn't because I don't think a 4 person townbloc is probably not a good idea. Besides, I don't trust you enough
Anyways sorry for being silent.

[sofanthiel]

Imp interpreted 'track' from before play started as 'track alignment', aka inspect.  A decade ago I probably did learn the difference.  I've definitely played in a long ago game that had tracking happen, don't think I was ever a tracker.

My focus on what inspect meant mechanically was real, just incorrect.

That, or you're just trying to conceal your sinister intentions by saying what others have theorized may be the town-aligned of the two potential motives behind that cyclical-inspect train of thought verbatim, as outlined below:

Imp is either a clueless townie who doesn't know the difference between a track and an inspect, but we can clear him on the basis that he apparently THOUGHT that he could guarantee a townie win by bringing it up. OR he's evil scum who knows that plan wouldn't work but brought it up to deceive us.

What I have more interest in is that vote for me, and that's something yet to be elaborated upon!

[Maximum Spin]

I didn't answer because other players did. I didn't think it was necessary for me to repeat everything.

An all-trackers game is potentially broken because it constrains the actions of scum fully. With 1 scum, it's perfectly broken. Two or more scum could potentially succeed if and only if they can rig the order so that they're following one another, in which case it's possible for the "first" (that is, the one to be tracked by a town player) to really track, but lie about the result, and the rest to act as they please.
Without some other kind of way for the mafia to subvert the track, which has the effect of rendering it useless, this game breaks down because the Nash equilibrium is nobody ever doing anything. This ironically leads to a likely town loss, since it's much more likely that townies will go off half-cocked and lynch each other than that the actual mafia will screw up.

Tric is, of course, impressively bad at thinking about these things, lol. But it's okay, we still have fun.

[sofanthiel]

What I have more interest in is that vote for me, and that's something yet to be elaborated upon!

Scratch that!

[Crystalizedmire]

Since the plan that Imp proposed makes the game unfun for scum, I think Imp is town It is possible that they just proposed a strategy that they knew the gm won't allow happen to get town points but I find that unlikely.
Sofanthiel not wanting to truly commit to the plan makes perfect sense for a townie who wants to have fun. But it does make sense for a scum who wants to win so I say it is a null read.

[hector13]

Maximum Spin, Hecter13, and Crystalizedmire, shall we form a flock and fly together?  High over town, looking far and down, watching other birds wander and frown?  Why or why not, try or try not?

I wouldn't because I don't think a 4 person townbloc is probably not a good idea. Besides, I don't trust you enough
Anyways sorry for being silent.

There’s more to the game than that so far, but there’s time for you to comment on that.


@Imp

It’s interesting to me you interpret what Max said as implying value to your plan even as a track. He said it would be “game-breaking” which is /=/ value.

[Imp]

What I have more interest in is that vote for me, and that's something yet to be elaborated upon!

Scratch that!

Checking, you see reasonable elaboration in the spoiler of this post?

I didn't answer because other players did. I didn't think it was necessary for me to repeat everything.

An all-trackers game is potentially broken because it constrains the actions of scum fully. With 1 scum, it's perfectly broken. Two or more scum could potentially succeed if and only if they can rig the order so that they're following one another, in which case it's possible for the "first" (that is, the one to be tracked by a town player) to really track, but lie about the result, and the rest to act as they please.
Without some other kind of way for the mafia to subvert the track, which has the effect of rendering it useless, this game breaks down because the Nash equilibrium is nobody ever doing anything. This ironically leads to a likely town loss, since it's much more likely that townies will go off half-cocked and lynch each other than that the actual mafia will screw up.

Thanks, your reasoning is at least potentially followable/possible to evaluate, and we are trying to 'keep track' of everyone.  I do think your words are not just a repetition of what others said, they have their own content and perspective, and that's why we need them, all of us, to have the chance to evaluate them, even days later should we have reason to.

[Maximum Spin]

Since the plan that Imp proposed makes the game unfun for scum, I think Imp is town It is possible that they just proposed a strategy that they knew the gm won't allow happen to get town points but I find that unlikely.
Sofanthiel not wanting to truly commit to the plan makes perfect sense for a townie who wants to have fun. But it does make sense for a scum who wants to win so I say it is a null read.

It doesn't "make the game unfun for scum", either. That's the thing. It doesn't actually trap scum, it just ruins the entire game. Everyone is constrained by it. In fact, it would be just as likely (if not more) for scum to suggest it in order to demoralize town when it fails, basically guaranteeing it won't happen again.

[Egan_BW]

Max says he sees value in my ploy, even translated to tracking.  He was asked to explain why, but hasn't even mentioned it yet:

Max said it's game-breaking, not valuable. Because it would result in a stalemate, which is a broken game but not of real value to the goal of town winning.

[sofanthiel]

Moments before Tric does step in and state that mod power will be used if needed... spicing stuff up.  That's awful meta though, and I had not not not not intended to play chicken with anyone but my fellow birb players.

To be frank, it was meta.  I specifically remember Tric slightly altering the rules to accommodate an oversight/mistake in Catsrulefia, so I knew that, if your strategy had the capacity to work (which I believed at the time), Tric would likely interfere in some way.

I didn't answer because other players did. I didn't think it was necessary for me to repeat everything.

As a sidenote, Max's willingness to answer questions seems rather atypical, though I've also noticed that he's a lot more cooperative when town and prefers to mess around as scum.

[Maximum Spin]

Well, in retrospect, I shouldn't say it completely breaks the game. It more accurately turns the game into a nightless, which, while not my thing, is a valid class of game.

But we're still not doing that.

I didn't answer because other players did. I didn't think it was necessary for me to repeat everything.

As a sidenote, Max's willingness to answer questions seems rather atypical, though I've also noticed that he's a lot more cooperative when town and prefers to mess around as scum.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I'm actually just a lot more cooperative when I'm randomly in a cooperative mood.

[Imp]

@Imp

It’s interesting to me you interpret what Max said as implying value to your plan even as a track. He said it would be “game-breaking” which is /=/ value.

My initial thoughts at the time were, oh, not an inspect.  Tracking, just knowing where folks go, yeah that doesn't work like an inspect would, doesn't 'solve'.

A number of you, including you, seemed to think that if we tried this for 1 day/night cycle, with no deaths, then we would definitely keep doing it and it would break the game.

That's not the break I meant - I mean sure-fire town win break.  Since the game is meant to be balanced, that's a break.

The game's also meant to end, but my plan was based on 'this leads to a town win'.  If we saw at any point it leads to a stalemate, we clearly stop following it.  The moment it doesn't match the expectation of my plan (at absolute worst, D2 when we reveal that none of us got an inspect result, we all got tracking results, which is what would have happened if my plan as expressed was followed to the letter as I stated would work) - at that point if no sooner every survivor discusses what to do next with this strong, clear evidence of plan fail.

Tric showed 'fear' of a perma-stuck game.  Or one that went 'too long', interfering with other games soon to start.  Very reasonable, that second fear especially.

Cry, didn't get to comment.
Max seemed to think it might be boring and also that it could be game breaking, but I don't get the feel of 'endless stalemate', confirmed here.  Max seems to me to be reading it as a 'what if' with realism, as a tracker circle, and went from can break the game to can break the game for town through demoralization.
Sof, seemed to think the mod would fix it if needed, even before the mod stepped in to say it would be fixed if needed.  And then was awesomely cool and every feather in place, seeming somewhat informed minority-acting to my senses.  This is an interesting comment as well, suggesting sof may not feel as sure that sof has the same awareness and information as I do.
Hec said infinite stalemate
Egan said infinite stall.

To me, I entered game with 'whee, game' focus, then realized 'oh wait, six and inspect, so... drat, but... town wins so do it'.  Then eventually I realized 'oh, dumb me' (I didn't post that at the time, happened after this post).  Then I thought, 'what now', which turned into observe and read the heck out of the rest of you.

What I read, as this continues to develop:

Max said 'yawn, garbage.  What, you need garbage explained?  K, so this is what trash is.' (reasonable town focus, especially as more is explained, plus Max looks like Max seems to usually look, so hard to read).
Egan and Hec both said 'would statemate', didn't appear to look deeper (reasonable town focus).
Cry said nothing, the only thing a person not here to speak can say.
sof said 'egads, what now?  What now?  What now?'  And that looks pretty scummy to me.

[Egan_BW]

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I'm actually just a lot more cooperative when I'm randomly in a cooperative mood.

This is a quick fun game so you picked a good time~

[Imp]

EBWOP, didn't add my intended links, so here:

To me, I entered game with 'whee, game' focus, then realized 'oh wait, six and inspect, so... drat, but... town wins so do it'.  Then eventually I realized 'oh, dumb me' (I didn't post that at the time, happened after this post and before the following one).  Then I thought, 'what now', which turned into observe and read the heck out of the rest of you, which I chased as long as I thought useful.