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[Digganob]

So there is no true difference between stabbing and slashing weapons fundamentally, it's just that stabbing weapons have low contact area, meaning low damage but high piercing, and slashing weapons have high damage and low piercing, correct?

This doesn't seem very useful for representing real differences between cutting types. Consider that if you're slashing at someone's arm, the length of the sword edge which is in contact with their arm at any one point is quite low. However, in the raws, a longsword has a much larger contact area for its slashing attack, accounting for how much longer it is, of course. That is useful for things like dismemberment, as you can obviously chop through a larger limb with that area. However, it also decreases the likelihood that the longsword will pierce a material, just as if it was a stabbing weapon with a larger contact area, no?

This is very troublesome for weapon balance, it seems to me. For modding, especially for weapon rebalancing, might it be best to find some baseline contact area for slashing weapons, to some maximum point where it might reasonably keep in contact with a given material. For some weapons this may be smaller, like curved swords and axes. This would also make larger, heavier weapons, like great axes, better at piercing, quite appropriately.

Anyone have any input on my observations? I want to have a pass at a weapon rebalance mod, and this is obviously some pretty important stuff to consider.

[Ziusudra]

Well, the Material science page on the wiki says:

Attack contact area is the minimum of weapon contact area and armor/layer contact area.

So the example longsword attack already isn't usually using its entire contact area, and will cut through a smaller arm easier than a larger one, as one would expect.

There's also the consideration that as the longsword starts to penetrate, the contact area quickly increases until it reaches the width of the layer, losing momentum along the way. (And a curved blade would hav more contact area at that point, though not really enough to worry about.)

[Digganob]

Well, the Material science page on the wiki says:

Attack contact area is the minimum of weapon contact area and armor/layer contact area.

So the example longsword attack already isn't usually using its entire contact area, and will cut through a smaller arm easier than a larger one, as one would expect.

There's also the consideration that as the longsword starts to penetrate, the contact area quickly increases until it reaches the width of the layer, losing momentum along the way. (And a curved blade would hav more contact area at that point, though not really enough to worry about.)

So essentially, the "attack contact area" is the maximum area that an edged attack may have to go through. If it has a high area edged attack, like a longsword swing, then the maximum "attack contact area" given the maximum armor/tissue layer contact area will be taken. Whereas, of course, if it is a stabbing weapon, it will use the weapon's contact area only really, because it is so much smaller than the armor/tissue contact area.

Is there some way of making the contact area for a slashing weapon smaller? Such as for axes and curved swords, that is. Or is the contact area for any given attack the only way of influencing penetration in that way? Besides velocity, I suppose.

Thanks for helping me with this, I find the material science page to be very confusing.

I believe this still leaves the issue of stabbing weapons having different contact areas. It kind of makes sense, for instance a stiletto dagger would have an easier time piercing armor than a longsword, however, a longsword could still be very acutely pointed, while also having a larger blade than something like a spear, thus allowing for more damage, but a similar piercing ability. I'm not sure if there's an easy fix to this issue, though.

[Ziusudra]

There is nothing to fix, the stab attack for the long sword already uses a much smaller contact area:

[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

The 1st number is the contact area, so a slash uses a maximum contact area of 60,000, while the stab uses a maximum contact area of 50, which isn't much more than a spear.

You can see what each number means here: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Weapon_token#ATTACK

[Digganob]

There is nothing to fix, the stab attack for the long sword already uses a much smaller contact area:

[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:50:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]
   [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

The 1st number is the contact area, so a slash uses a maximum contact area of 60,000, while the stab uses a maximum contact area of 50, which isn't much more than a spear.

You can see what each number means here: https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Weapon_token#ATTACK

Ah, so it's just somewhat less likely that a longsword will have a very low contact area on any given attack? I wonder if the elasticity of chainmail gives it more surface area than a breastplate.

So theoretically, could a longsword and a spear both have the same minimum contact area when getting a very "square" hit in combat? So that the only major difference is the likelihood that they will actually get that minimum contact area?

[Ziusudra]

Ah, so it's just somewhat less likely that a longsword will have a very low contact area on any given attack?

No. Any time a weapon user attacks, they choose one of that weapon's possible attacks. So lets say a long sword user is attacking an unarmored, base size human:

• if they choose the slash attack, the contact area will always be that of the body part, for a max of 12621
• if they choose the stab attack, the contact area will always be that of the attack, 60
• if they choose the slap attack, the contact area will always be that of the body part, for a max of 12621
• if they choose the pommel attack, the contact area will always be that of the attack, 100

While for a spear user attacking the same:

• if they choose the stab attack, the contact area will always be that of the attack, 20
• if they choose the bash attack:
• • if they attack the upper or lower body, the contact area will be that of the attack, 10000
• • otherwise, the contact area will be that of the body part, at most 6310

So, really they both hav the same 50/50 chance of a low or high contact area attack.

I wonder if the elasticity of chainmail gives it more surface area than a breastplate.

Yes and no, a mail shirt will hav more contact area than a breastplate (if both sized for the same species), but that's because it covers more body parts.

So theoretically, could a longsword and a spear both have the same minimum contact area when getting a very "square" hit in combat?

As far as I know, "squareness" has nothing to do with contact area. Theoretically, if both weapons were used to stab a body part with 20 or less contact area, they would both use that contact area, so yes, but that would be a very small body part.

So that the only major difference is the likelihood that they will actually get that minimum contact area?

The only major differences are that:

• the spear stab can go about 233% deeper
• a spear will very rarely ever sever a body part
• a long sword is 75% heavier, thus more momentum

You might be interested in the Sword v. Spear results (and that was a short sword)

[Digganob]

So theoretically, could a longsword and a spear both have the same minimum contact area when getting a very "square" hit in combat?

As far as I know, "squareness" has nothing to do with contact area. Theoretically, if both weapons were used to stab a body part with 20 or less contact area, they would both use that contact area, so yes, but that would be a very small body part.

So that the only major difference is the likelihood that they will actually get that minimum contact area?

The only major differences are that:

• the spear stab can go about 233% deeper
• a spear will very rarely ever sever a body part
• a long sword is 75% heavier, thus more momentum

You might be interested in the Sword v. Spear results (and that was a short sword)

I wonder what part of a strike "squareness" plays, then. The combat page on the wiki just indicates it increases "damage," but how it does so is apparently a mystery. I would have thought it would at least increase momentum or something else, as it is a representation of a strike's ability to carry out momentum into a target effectively, or else be another factor, but it doesn't seem to be factored into the combat formula at all. Strange indeed. I remember doing a test with iron spears VS iron chainmail, and I thought it strange how a perfectly square stab on the torso could not pierce, no matter how many times I tried. I suppose then that I would need to have a much stronger, skilled combatant to be able to pierce armor with a spear.

Ideally for my mod, it would be very possible, but difficult, to pierce same-material armor with stabbing weapons. Perhaps I should try messing with various values and see what can realistically be changed to achieve that kind of result, in the arena. Squareness not apparently affecting penetration is a bummer, though. I had the impression it was what made or broke an attack, for whether it penetrated, in those edge cases. That makes sense intuitively, and realistically after all. But alas.

That data is interesting, that you've sent me. I'll see about looking at those closely. It might help guide me with balancing.

Anyways, thank you for all the help. I don't know why, but a lot of the information on the wiki just seems to pass right through me. I appreciate help in parsing it.