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[ToonyMan]

@Imp:
Voting a player for having a lot of votes doesn't mean they're mafia. I can't vote a player for something like that. If Secretdorf is mafia we'll get him, but voting out of fear isn't the way.

@Lenglon:
I see. So Max was merged with another player last night. If we can determine this other player then we can argue that one of them is in a group chat and hasn't mentioned that fact. I am thankful that BlackHeart did not roleblock you and instead only opted to marked by death.

I think we can at least determine a number of players that were most likely NOT merged with Max. Got any ideas Max while I look?

PPE:
Ah hah! So one of Max or Jim is probably scum.

[ToonyMan]

Jim is probably scum. 

[Imp]

Imp: that is correct, I got:

is in a groupchat.

is not in a groupchat.

Hey, I regret focusing on this, because I don't know what it means and 'in general' I'm okay with mystery until it's time to dig in.

However, under apparent sincere distress, the Esteemed Maximum Spin stated, and the bolding is mine:

Yeah. Step one is the thing you’re worried about. You have enough information to figure out step two, to be perfectly honest.

To be perfectly honest, 1) yes I got the thing, 2) no I don't want it, 3) get it off me get it off me get it off me, 4) you can't even do that because I can't be targeted normally, 5) this sucks ( and 6) you probably can't even upgrade it to unkillability because I can't be targeted normally, right? If I do have enough information, I'm much too annoyed about this to figure out how it works)

Now, I have enough emotional control to usually properly direct even distress.  I can lie well under extreme pressure, so I believe it's likely Esteemed Maximum Spin could too.  It's a human skill you can learn outside of Mafia games, and once you're really good at it, it'd kinda right there in your toolbox whenever you reach for it.

Therefore, I don't particularly believe or disbelieve this, I would generally prefer to take the claims that I am strongly sure that a person is intending to reveal, not possibly saying without even evaluating.

But this was said.

Yeah. Step one is the thing you’re worried about. You have enough information to figure out step two, to be perfectly honest.

To be perfectly honest, 1) yes I got the thing, 2) no I don't want it, 3) get it off me get it off me get it off me, 4) you can't even do that because I can't be targeted normally, 5) this sucks ( and 6) you probably can't even upgrade it to unkillability because I can't be targeted normally, right? If I do have enough information, I'm much too annoyed about this to figure out how it works)

Now I will go broken-winged bird in a heartbeat if I think that helps me, and this can be a form of that.  'leave my nest alone, come get me instead, I'm yummy and helpless', then of course flying off once the distraction's appearing effective.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UCKnC1L_Rc

But those sort of claims made here, about being not targeted normally, maybe affect what's going on here.

[hector13]

It could be Esteemed BlackHeartKabal. It seems odd they would have just a “marked by death” action if they also have it with a roleblock, or if someone has to act on them, particularly considering what they can do with it if they die. Why just mark someone you say you’re marking because you find them suspicious if you can also block them too?

I would suggest that’s a bit more damning of them than Esteemed Jim Groovester tbh. I just mentioned my N3 in case someone had thoughts on it.

[FallacyofUrist]

MOD, please prod our absent players.

Will do. Currently I believe that's Knightwing64.

[ToonyMan]

@Hector:
This doesn't change the fact you targeted Jim last night, but hit Max as well.

Both you and Lenglon targeted Max and Jim last night. It's confirmable between the two of you. We have an idea how this ability works because we've seen it three nights in a row now. BlackHeart has a confirmed action on Imp during N1, however NQT and Sofanthiel were merged. I don't see how this could be because of BlackHeart.

[Imp]

@Imp:
Voting a player for having a lot of votes doesn't mean they're mafia. I can't vote a player for something like that. If Secretdorf is mafia we'll get him, but voting out of fear isn't the way.

Would you please consider taking the time to look at each of Esteemed Secretdorf's posts this game, and review them?

Forget about the votes thing, what's your read of the player?

What are they trying to do, and what does that to you indicate about their wincon and where their attention is?

13 D1 posts,
10 D2 posts,
18 D3 posts,
5 D4 posts.

I know that's a lot to read, but what do you read in them?

If you just read them, you can start from here and work forward, their posts.  Starts on #53 on default settings less than 4 full pages, most are pretty short.

[ToonyMan]

@Imp:
So what? I think Knightwing is town and they literally haven't posted on D4.

[hector13]

Esteemed Jim Groovester would’ve thrown his scum buddy under the bus on D2 though by suggesting Esteemed sofanthiel wasn’t a good choice for the NK.

I don’t currently have an argument that it could be Esteemed BlackHeartKabal from the mechanics of it, but I’m struggling to accept he just marked Esteemed Lenglon when the only other methods so far been via blocking and being acted on. That doesn’t make sense.

[Imp]

@Hector:
This doesn't change the fact you targeted Jim last night, but hit Max as well.

Both you and Lenglon targeted Max and Jim last night. It's confirmable between the two of you. We have an idea how this ability works because we've seen it three nights in a row now. BlackHeart has a confirmed action on Imp during N1, however NQT and Sofanthiel were merged. I don't see how this could be because of BlackHeart.

And what about the claims Esteemed Jim Groovester is making, that 2 nights in a row he hit the same target that Esteemed Secretdorf went for, which if they are both scum, which I asked about recently here, frees Esteemed Jim Groovester to do whatever as mafia, covered by that 'I tried to steal votes and failed' issue?

[Imp]

@Imp:
So what? I think Knightwing is town and they literally haven't posted on D4.

Hey, Esteemed Webadict's child now... you up for reading like I asked you for, or you just wanna vote?

I believe I asked you for reading a player.  What do you mean by 'so what'?  What does that mean?

Is that a no?  I can handle a no.  If it's not a no, what is it?  Why is it?  What are you doing, thinking?

[ToonyMan]

@Imp:
I don't think Secretdorf and Jim are both scum, but I can look through Secretdorf's posts if that's what you really want Impadict.

[Imp]

Esteemed Jim Groovester would’ve thrown his scum buddy under the bus on D2 though by suggesting Esteemed sofanthiel wasn’t a good choice for the NK.

I don’t currently have an argument that it could be Esteemed BlackHeartKabal from the mechanics of it, but I’m struggling to accept he just marked Esteemed Lenglon when the only other methods so far been via blocking and being acted on. That doesn’t make sense.

Could Esteemed Jim Groovester have thrown a possible member of a different scumteam to the town?  I don't see much evidence that Esteemed Jim Groovester ever moved to protect either Esteemed sofanthiel or Esteemed Egan_BW.  They moved happily against those two, as I read it.

Spoiler: But I've got a lot of 'what is this, is this protection?' of Esteemed Secretdorf, vague, indirect, and confusing to me. (click to show/hide)

Very much against lynching Secretdorf to satisfy Imp's tunneling.

Esteemed Jim Groovester, please help us understand why you selected Esteemed Knightwing64 for your vote theft target.

It seems odd that Esteemed Secretdorf would coincidentally choose the same target as you both nights.  Esteemed Secretdorf has claimed a reason for selecting Esteemed Knightwing64, and I greatly wonder what yours is.

Literally the same reason. Knightwing64's vote is better off in my hands than it is in Knightwing64's hands.

Knightwing64 is also suspect for getting banished at the same time as Crystalizedmire by (presumably) sofanthiel and whoever's responsible for ability duplication. That was probably not an accident but between Crystalizedmire and Knightwing64, Knightwing64 is probably less suspicious.

Why didn't you target Crystalizedmire then?

Don't worry about it.

Knightwing64 doesn't have a vote, and I don't have Knightwing64's vote, so both me and Secretdorf were randomized to Knightwing64, or we both targeted Knightwing64 because we have the same sense in who we want to steal votes from. I don't know about Secretdorf, but I targeted Knightwing64 during N3.

Secretdorf if you tried to fucking steal the same votes I tried to steal

we are going to have a problem

I'm disinclined to steal another person's vote, especially as we currently lack any obvscum targets but I can find someone to rob if a confirmable night action is instead considered more valuable.

Steal somebody's votes, but not votes I am going to steal.

How does everyone feel with the Esteemed Secretdorf having the only vote in the game?  And/or so many that they can instantly hammer by themself?  We're not there today.  Tomorrow?  D5?

I don't mind.

Don't ask me why, I've already explained I think he's town, live with the explanation.

Can we lynch sofanthiel now instead of indulging Imp on every topic?

Esteemed Jim Groovester, we're in hammer range if Esteemed Secretdorf acts.

Also, what do you think of Esteemed Secretdorf?  Would you shoot him today, if you had bullets and he voted you?

I literally just said what I think about Secretdorf.

My opinion about Secretdorf would probably change if he voted me so I might shoot him, especially if I couldn't see the rationale in his case, but the same would be true for a lot of players.

Esteemed Jim Groovester, what do you think of Esteemed hector13 and Esteemed Secretdorf?

I think hector13 is probably town. Secretdorf hasn't done anything that makes me think he's scummy. I think you're drinking too much of your own paranoid kool aid about Secretdorf and should probably focus on what you know and what is easy to grasp about the game state rather than dwelling on hypotheticals.

In case it isn't obvious I stole Sofanthiel's vote. Somehow I got 2.

NOOOOOOO I WANTED SOFANTHIEL'S VOTES

GO STEAL SOMEBODY ELSE'S VOTES

Spot checking on SecretDorf says town.

Related to why Jim has my vote? (What's "defensive" about vote theft?)

It's defensive in the same way a day kill is defensive.

Fallacy is still bitter about me (but not actually me) superkilling him and then claiming to be a mason (which wasn't my idea) so he baked some irony into my role and abilities.

And I believe he really firmly participated in the elimination of Esteemed EuchreJack, even with that worthy's compliance and all the meta analysis and other reasons not to eliminate that worthy involved.

people on the Jack wagon: would you be willing to vote Canadian with me if Web vanillized Jack?

I probably don't move off Jack but if I get the three invitees publicly, and I have, I have much less consternation if Day 1 ends with someone else.

I probably don't have a chance to spot check the cases for any other target than sofanthiel, who I think would be a decent choice.

[BlackHeartKabal]

BHK: Skimming your posts, you've only mentioned Secretdorf twice, and, unhelpfully, they aren't on your reads list at all (I think someone else already pointed this out).

(...)

Regarding you and hector, yes, they were both the same questions, but hector was never suspicious to me, and your questions were posted first to begin with. I've outright said that I consider hector to be town, and I trust his reads - so that both of you focused on Sofanthiel early made it a good lead to follow, barring the concluded unlikely circumstance that both you and Sofanthiel were scum. Even if hector were suspect, then the only thing that would matter in that regard would be copying your reads - but he wouldn't. As you pointed out, he likely came to the same conclusion independently. Which, again, wouldn't just happen without a reason. What's the issue here? And, following that, what gives the impression that just because I'm focused on you and Sofanthiel doesn't mean I consider Mire and Secretdorf suspects as well? We can't do everything all at once - we have a system of days and nights that provide us limited opportunities to do things, and the priority is not just in finding scum and hostile thirds, but also prioritizing order of investigation and elimination one we have that info, in this case.

(...)

How does everyone feel with the Esteemed Secretdorf having the only vote in the game?  And/or so many that they can instantly hammer by themself?  We're not there today.  Tomorrow?  D5?

With the control over the vote, and the lack of scumhunting so far, and them still being alive.  I am as close to concerned about this as my calm and kind ruleset allows.

Should I mark them, as a safeguard in case they try to do something funny later on?

(...)

In terms of reads -

Firm Town camp -
hector13 - As again, I have a fair confidence in him. He hasn't done anything I have a particular distaste or suspicion for.
Maximum Spin - Webadict and Jim's mason, apparently.
Lenglon - Again, not a suspicious person, if a bit overeager to policy.
Toony - The trusty bus miller that was willing to sacrifice themselves. Again, not really suspicious at all, and verifiable.
Jim - Webadict and Spin's mason.

Town Lean -
Imp: Why do I want to trust you, but still feel that small bit of suspicion that keeps me from wanting to confirm you in my mind, even after our cordial interaction?
Canadian - They've been more active and scumhunting. Not shifty enough to go either way.
Parade - If they've claimed, I might have overlooked it. There's nothing to really verify with them, but they've been acting decently independently and haven't done much scummy.

Ambivalence and the Unknown -
Knightwing - mimir
Mire - Hasn't posted, and could go either way. I should pay more attention to her.
notquitethere - I don't know, at all. The lack of webbing is suspect, but maybe it's because anyone visiting me stops my actions, blanket?

Sofanthiel, of course, must die.

Given that, what makes them priority numero uno today?

I wanted to mark them, but then I figured that they'd be lynched soon, and it was a waste of a mark and commentary following that logic. I thought that letting someone sit by and build up votes with their almost mercenary attitude regarding us would be a foregone conclusion to lynch them, so I just figured "this will sort itself out, I can factor out Secretdorf regarding my theories and focus on potential leads after the death of Secretdorf." I presumed too much thinking ahead and lost track of the present. Accordingly, we're "behind time", so to say, regarding their elimination.

The fact that they remind me of how I won the last game I was in as a third party also has me extremely on edge with them to begin with, but it's not like I can make a judgment on them based on that alone. I should have just used my words instead of operating on an assumption I thought was so utterly inevitable that I could consider it to be a future set in stone.

Apart from the above, I thought I got it across in the two mentions of Secretdorf that you're quoting that they're a suspect to me.

It could be Esteemed BlackHeartKabal. It seems odd they would have just a “marked by death” action if they also have it with a roleblock, or if someone has to act on them, particularly considering what they can do with it if they die. Why just mark someone you say you’re marking because you find them suspicious if you can also block them too?

I would suggest that’s a bit more damning of them than Esteemed Jim Groovester tbh. I just mentioned my N3 in case someone had thoughts on it.

I didn't block because I didn't feel that I would block much if Lenglon turned out to be scum, and if Lenglon is town and an investigator, if I choose to block them, I am blocking an investigator. Too little reward and too much risk to block and mark instead of just marking. I didn't mention this way of marking because I figured that I wouldn't get shot too early with the impression of relative inconsistency regarding my role, but now that's out of the bag, I need to contribute as much as I can.

[Imp]

@Imp:
I don't think Secretdorf and Jim are both scum, but I can look through Secretdorf's posts if that's what you really want Impadict.

Thank you!  You can stop after you find 5 reasonable town behaviors, but explain them to me, okay?

Surely by D4, and 46 posts, there's going to be ample evidence of scumhunting, appropriate and reasonable play, and good stuff, right?

Cause I don't see it, so I need an education or we need to vote scum, right?