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[ToonyMan]

In addition, the situation with NQT and Sofanthiel during N1 is still extremely bizarre and doesn't make sense to me unless non-Mafia scum were involved.

Honestly, we now know sofanthiel was unkillable so...

Why waste a double-kill on one of your partners, even if you know they'll survive? Let alone two of your partners? I think NQT is probably not Mafia here, even ignoring Imp's inspect result.

Jim.

Tell us who The Merger is. The world must know!

[Imp]

But I'm definitely listening.  Can you help me understand why you feel being 'confirmed town' as of tonight is super useful for you?

No.

Can you help me understand why you didn't request earlier at any point, either from Esteemed Webadict themself, or of me yesterday?

I actually did do this D1. The conversation petered out, partially because I wasn't clear on what things the inspect did and didn't ignore.

Aha, thank you.  I will add that to my consideration of what to do and when to do it.  If you choose to communicate further, I am still listening.  I'm currently adding to the calculus that you didn't push for this D2 or D3 at all that I'm aware of, and there's maybe other stuff even more valuable to town I could possibly be doing during the time it would take me to grant your request.

Can a kill be double-acted? It wouldn't make sense there since that would mean Egan also killed their partner Sofanthiel and not just got bussed to them. I still think NQT and Sofanthiel were bussed or merged by some unknown person. Although, Jim only got NQT's vote right? So a merge doesn't make sense there since Jim should have gotten NQT and Sofanthiel's votes, although Jim did have three votes...

I'm going to strikethrough what's probably resolved, but not delete it because it could have meaning for context, as incorrect but useful because it helps point to the actual truth (I don't know what that is yet).

NQT: Do you have solid reasons for believing Webadict tried to kill you? Why, then, are you alive? Is it because the kill was redirected/bussed to Sofanthiel?

To be crystal clear:
1. I know when people try to kill me. Someone tried to kill me and would have ordinarily succeeded last night.
2. I can't be killed so easily
3. The only reason to believe I was bussed was Jim claiming to have vote stolen Sofa and my vote was stolen. So I could have been bussed, or that could have another way
4. Webadict claimed to have an infallible way of finding someone's alignment. He hasn't made any claim about Sofanthiel's alignment. It seems likely to me that his supposedly infallible inspect was just a kill with a roleflip.

Sofanthiel, how did you revive?
[/quote]

We know that Esteemed sofanthiel has no visible way to gain a vote.  We also never actually saw Esteemed sofanthiel have more than 1 vote, always 0 or 1.

We are told that others who say they can steal votes targeted that one, and those folks show they got 2 and have no clear reason where two came from (D2 maybe came from target of two commingled folks.  D3 - if the banished were commingled, then how could Esteemed sofanthiel be commingled the same night? We're not seeing evidence of general mass commingling, right?)

We know that Esteemed Egan_BW appears to have used the ability with 'door' in the name N1, part of how/why they were caught and executed D2.  Or could someone else have used it for them?  They have a way to give one extra action during a night, but not a way to use the same action twice.  Could 'door' have been made to target two?

I am convinced a kill action was used on Esteemed notquitethere.  I don't get if it's the same kill action that triggered Esteemed sofanthiel's visible death N1, or if there's a second one.  Esteemed Maximum Spin thinks Esteemed Egan_BW could and maybe did kill Esteemed sofanthiel.  If so, someone still landed a 'kill that normally would have succeeded' on Esteemed notquitethere.

I'm trying to understand how this relates to commingling and/or use of others' abilities and/or redirection and/or repeated actions same or future nights.

[Maximum Spin]

Max: isn't it optional though? like, you gain a benefit for following it but it's not forced upon you?

It's "optional" in the sense that Least Esteemed Fallacy cannot forcibly reach through the computer screen and make me do it, but no, I don't get any benefit for following it and I get a harm for screwing it up.

It's extremely bizarre because Egan and Sofanthiel were Mafia partners, so whoever "merged" NQT and Sofanthiel together meant Egan was going to kill their own partner, which seems like an odd decision if the merger is Mafia.

Again, we know he knew he was absolutely unkillable that night. Is it that much of a stretch to try to kill a townie and appear to kill your actual partner at the same time in order to look town?

uggh why am I even still trying

We know that Esteemed sofanthiel has no visible way to gain a vote.  We also never actually saw Esteemed sofanthiel have more than 1 vote, always 0 or 1.

Autonomous Cosmonaut (Mafia)
(Innate, Auto) Eternal Mission: Time flickers backwards whenever your timeline would cease. When you are killed, you revive. When your role or abilities change due to external factors, they return to their previous state. When you gain a Status, you lose it. When you gain or lose votes, your votes reset to their previous count. This ability may trigger any number of times in a given phase, but after the phase is over, it goes on cooldown for one Cycle.

HOW IS WHAT HAPPENED NOT OBVIOUS

[Imp]

@Imp:
Webadict probably meant Secretdorf asking Jack "did the PM not have the mafia wincon" since town players didn't get their wincon in their PMs. If Secretdorf isn't town then maybe he did have a wincon in his PM.

I think this is impossible.  The word of Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist, which I added bold, underline, and italic to some of:

But for your reference here is the Total List Of Alignments. I will not include any alignments outside of these, and the win conditions will always be as stated.

Spoiler: Alignments (click to show/hide)

(Always Appears) The Town must eliminate every anti-Town player and have at least one living Town player to win. Anti-Town players are any players that have win conditions directly opposed to the Town. A Mafia player would be anti-Town, but a Survivor would not be.

(Will Probably Appear) The Mafia must eliminate enough players such that the number of living Mafia players equal or outnumber the other living players, and furthermore at least one Mafia player must still be alive. This win condition will only trigger if there are no remaining ways to eliminate the Mafia - so a Town double voter or vigilante killer could obstruct it. The Mafia will always possess a totally private scumchat which any living Mafia may communicate freely in, as well as a factional Mafiakill. In a game with a secondary scumteam, the Mafiakill may kill in a less direct manner, otherwise it will be a straightforwards kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The other scumteam may take up any villainous-sounding factional name. They share the same rules and win condition as the Mafia - and yes, they will need to fight the Mafia in order to achieve their win condition, and vice versa, because it turns out this town isn't big enough for two groups of murderers.

All alignments below this line belong to the Third Parties category.

(Common) The Mafia-Ally simply wins when the Mafia players do, without actively being on their team (and thus gaining none of their special privileges).
--(Rare) The Other-Ally could be allied to any of the alignments present. While not being of that alignment, they will win when a player that possesses that alignment wins.

(Uncommon) The Survivor must be alive at the end of a certain Day number, including surviving the execution that Day, in order to win. Depending on game size this number will probably be 3, 4, or 5. If the game ends before that number they will also lose.
--(Rare) The Joint-Survivor exists as a team of two. They have the win condition of the Survivor, but modified - at least one of them must be alive at the selected time.

Any type of Survivor that wins immediately exits the game.

(Uncommon) The Serial Killer wins when every player that is not themselves has been eliminated. If every player including themselves is dead, they will still win. They typically have some form of lethal ability to help accomplish this, though usually not so direct as the Mafia's kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The Cult win when the number of living players of their alignment equal or outnumber all non-Cult remaining living players, and there is no longer any way to stop them through kills, vote manipulation, or otherwise. As a courtesy, if there is a Cult, I guarantee you that at the start of the game there will only ever be one Cult player. The Cult player will possess a means of transforming any player that is not scum or Joint-Survivor into another Cult player. This methodology will be limited.

(Rare) The Hunter is opposed to a specific alignment decided by me. As long as that alignment loses, the Hunter wins. If their opposed target is Town then they count as anti-Town, otherwise they do not. The Hunter need not be alive to accomplish this win condition.

[Secretdorf]

This is assuming there's only one scum team with a kill. If the game really is just a big single Mafia team (it would be what, 5 Mafia players?) then I want to believe there's a SK which I guess points to BlackHeart, but I don't believe that's the case here.

I think there's probably just a 3/4 player scumteam, and Jack was the fake-scumteam, Tric was the future Sk, and there might be another 3rd party. That's what I'm assuming for now.

@Imp:
Webadict probably meant Secretdorf asking Jack "did the PM not have the mafia wincon" since town players didn't get their wincon in their PMs. If Secretdorf isn't town then maybe he did have a wincon in his PM.

Yeah, that was the reason. Do note that the example non-town PMs Fallacy provided did not have any wincons in them either, although I cannot say about the actual PMs.

Is this one of those things where we have to kill the esteemed Secretdorf so the esteemed everyone else can move on?

It's sort of come to this. So I'll claim this: If I get 7 votes, my cultivation becomes unbalanced and I die. Does that help?

@Toonyman: Can you still do the roleswap?

[Imp]

HOW IS WHAT HAPPENED NOT OBVIOUS

Perhaps because not all of us are equally intelligent, equally educated, have the same previous experiences, have the same style of thinking, have the same gifts.

I see that if votes were gained or lost, they would be reset when the ability fired.

What I am saying is I don't see how Esteemed sofanthiel could have gained a second vote.  They don't show a way to gain them.  Someone else had to have given them.  How?  When?  Where?

N1? When we saw them die and revive?

That would have been a full reset, right?  That included a revive.

All of these fire separately.

When you are killed, you revive.  (we saw this happen N1)
When your role or abilities change due to external factors, they return to their previous state. (who knows if this happened N1)
When you gain a Status, you lose it. (also unknown)
When you gain or lose votes, your votes reset to their previous count. (Unknown, but they started with 1 as of D1, would have triggered N1 if triggerable)

This ability may trigger any number of times in a given phase, but after the phase is over, it goes on cooldown for one Cycle.

So anything that happened to Esteemed sofanthiel either D2 or N2, one Cycle, while it's on cooldown, doesn't trigger it.  Any indicated changes, those are perms and potentially 'can be locked in' by that ability too, right?  Once it comes off cooldown?

D3, it's supposedly off cooldown.  And can fire any number of times.  Yet we see that Esteemed sofanthiel actually did lose votes D3.  Which, if this worked 'as expected' could not have happened, they would have lost/regained... as many times as needed.  They couldn't lose votes while (Innate, Auto) Eternal Mission: was working, they'd instantly get them back as they lost them, perfect permanent loop if the taker could infinitely take them as they reappeared?

So, could the N1 death have been something else?  A reflection of Esteemed The Canadian kitten's ability onto Esteemed sofanthiel, and that ability didn't fire -  - - -

calmly smiles Until D2. When Esteemed Jim Groovester tried to steal Esteemed sofanthiel's vote, and got it, and a possibly commingled Esteemed notquitethere's vote too.  Triggering that ability D2, meaning it's on cooldown N2, D3.  So when Esteemed sofanthiel's one vote is stolen, it's gone, D3.  Meaning... Esteemed Secretdorf gained the second extra vote in some other manner, I don't think it's possible it came from Esteemed sofanthiel.

Anyone help with these ideas?  Anything look wrong?

[Maximum Spin]

Imp.

You're completely confused here. You're even talking about actions taking place during the day rather than the previous night.
You actually have all the pieces there.

[Imp]

Imp.

You're completely confused here. You're even talking about actions taking place during the day rather than the previous night.
You actually have all the pieces there.

I am confused but I want to take Esteemed sofanthiel's visible loss of a vote D2 as proof of that ability firing.

(Innate, Auto) Eternal Mission: goes on cooldown for a full cycle, that's 1 day and 1 night, either order, after firing any number of times once triggered.  I asked Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist to explain cycle to me, so I am certain that's how it's being used here, I don't think I could have misunderstood the explanation.

I want to say it had to fire N1, when we saw Esteemed sofanthiel die and revive - except it protects against kills.  Not deaths.  If that was a death from non-kill cause, and a revive from non-Mission cause - then it might not trigger Eternal Mission at all.

But I think we see evidence Eternal Mission did fire D2, with the reappearing vote.  If it had fired N1, that vote couldn't have reappeared.  We know Esteemed notquitethere lost a vote D2, we saw that.

And I think we see evidence Eternal Mission did not fire D3, with the not-reappearing vote.

That's what I think I see.

Which still makes me think the.... deep breathing, a brief step away from the thread, returning with an attitude of deep calm kindness The Esteemed Secretdorf whose story keeps changing somehow gained another vote another way, D3.

For someone who now claims 'more than 7 votes gained kills me' they sure seem to have rushed to knowingly get 5 for today.

[Maximum Spin]

The votes weren't lost on the day, they were lost the previous night.

[Jim Groovester]

Hey what if we got lost in the weeds clarifying night interactions that aren't supposed to be mysterious

In addition, the situation with NQT and Sofanthiel during N1 is still extremely bizarre and doesn't make sense to me unless non-Mafia scum were involved.

Honestly, we now know sofanthiel was unkillable so...

Why waste a double-kill on one of your partners, even if you know they'll survive? Let alone two of your partners? I think NQT is probably not Mafia here, even ignoring Imp's inspect result.

Jim.

Tell us who The Merger is. The world must know!

I don't know who's responsible for ability duplication, because otherwise I would be trying to lynch them.

If I had to speculate, the ability duplicator could be someone who goes fast, like a racer. The ability duplicator may even have access to dead people's actions, like Max has claimed, so they may be a form of undead, possibly a ghost.

Maybe, a ghost racer.



If I don't see BHK show up by the 24 hour mark I am going to propose lynch all lurkers.

[Imp]

Max: isn't it optional though? like, you gain a benefit for following it but it's not forced upon you?

It's "optional" in the sense that Least Esteemed Fallacy cannot forcibly reach through the computer screen and make me do it, but no, I don't get any benefit for following it and I get a harm for screwing it up.

And I'm adding in here that my original, Esteemed Warehouse 13 role was quite different from Esteemed Maximum Spin's.

In my case, though a possible benefit does not come from Esteemed Hector13 or the ability's potential penalties itself at all, I may actually have, or have had, a benefit from following it.  I'm not sure of this, and it's because of how it may interlace with other parts of my original role.

The votes weren't lost on the day, they were lost the previous night.

Aha!  Thank you, that helps me mental calculus.  Whoops, further evidence I had a heck of a day ability once, I now default to thinking actions are taken during the day because 'of course'.

[Maximum Spin]

Aha!  Thank you, that helps me mental calculus.  Whoops, further evidence I had a heck of a day ability once, I now default to thinking actions are taken during the day because 'of course'.

To fully clarify, whether Jim likes it or not:
n1, sofanthiel dies and resurrects, gets vote-stolen, regrows vote.
n2, the ability is on cooldown, the stolen vote goes back, but the vote count doesn't reset back to 1, Secretdorf steals both votes, vote count doesn't reset again.
There's no mystery.

[Imp]

Just to make my displeasure completely clear, I legitimately would not have joined if warned ahead of time that this would be a game where people can catch post restrictions.

Good faith effort seems accepted.  I wonder what that means, and how wide the leash stretches.  You seemed to think I'd broken mine D3.

I cannot possibly imagine describing any of this as "calm" so I guess that works then.

If you need a break I hope you decide to take one, and if you choose that you continue displaying good faith effort.  I bet it matters, especially for those of us who didn't ask for these restrictions.

[Imp]

Aha!  Thank you, that helps me mental calculus.  Whoops, further evidence I had a heck of a day ability once, I now default to thinking actions are taken during the day because 'of course'.

To fully clarify, whether Jim likes it or not:
n1, sofanthiel dies and resurrects, gets vote-stolen, regrows vote.
n2, the ability is on cooldown, the stolen vote goes back, but the vote count doesn't reset back to 1, Secretdorf steals both votes, vote count doesn't reset again.
There's no mystery.

I deeply appreciate the help seeing this.  That works for me.

[ToonyMan]

@Max:
Again, why waste one of your double kills on your partner when you could try to kill two town instead? Do you think The Merger or whatever is on the same team as Egan and Sofanthiel?

@Secretdorf:
I can't roleswap anymore because it gets Disabled after I use it. This is how I know I didn't target myself last night: My Disabled is still there, unless Fallacy forgot.

@Jim:
BlackHeart needs to post yeah.