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[BlackHeartKabal]

upon my own death, makes them a valid target for a one-shot kill.

Who does the one-shot?

And why'd you choose to mark/roleblock me N1?  The thinking/reasoning, please, of me as your pick.

I do the one-shot. It fails if I try to target someone without the mark, so I can only really lean on the people I roleblock to target for that potentiality, unless I have a particularly educated guess as to who might have visited me after I die. For roleblocking you, I have to admit I had future potential application of the mark in mind - which is, to say, if I were a pure roleblocker, I don't think I'd consider you as highly rated a candidate, especially since I dislike "hipshoooting" N1. Hell, you still weren't my first candidate, that was Tric. Your chat restrictions at the time made you hard to discern, and I highly suspected you to be a third party. That, and your unsubtle and odd urging for the SK to target the pirate team, as much as I hate to operate on vibes alone, left a bad enough feeling for me to disrupt you. I don't 100% think blocking you is what prevented a second kill on the first night, at least.

Thank you.  And you have no read of my claims/didn't read them/don't care, right?

I'm not going to just believe that you aren't third party solely because when I asked you explicitly, you said no. I took the action that I deemed had minimal risk for the town relative to potential gains. I can't be faulted for that.

[Imp]

I'm not going to just believe that you aren't third party solely because when I asked you explicitly, you said no. I took the action that I deemed had minimal risk for the town relative to potential gains. I can't be faulted for that.

I don't think I said anything about fault.

How much attention did you pay to the end of D1 voting, and the fact that town was eliminated?  What patterns to do you see in that and the conversations of the time?

If you don't track that kind of thing, why not?

[BlackHeartKabal]

I'm not going to just believe that you aren't third party solely because when I asked you explicitly, you said no. I took the action that I deemed had minimal risk for the town relative to potential gains. I can't be faulted for that.

I don't think I said anything about fault.

How much attention did you pay to the end of D1 voting, and the fact that town was eliminated?  What patterns to do you see in that and the conversations of the time?

If you don't track that kind of thing, why not?

If this is about Jack, I'm well aware that was a mistake, and the point about Jack not being dumb enough to out himself, plus Webadict's chewing me out over it are still in my mind - it's why I haven't been as confident about my judgment.

Apart from that, what's there to conclude? You've been on Sofanthiel's case since the first day, so if Sofanthiel flips scum, you've either pulled off one hell of a bus at their expense, or, more likely, you made an accurate call. I didn't think there was much to pay attention to beyond the Jack wagon after he flipped town. If this is a prompt to think about it and conclude something that you see and I don't, would it be too much to ask you to be direct?

[Imp]

If this is about Jack, I'm well aware that was a mistake, and the point about Jack not being dumb enough to out himself, plus Webadict's chewing me out over it are still in my mind - it's why I haven't been as confident about my judgment.

Apart from that, what's there to conclude? You've been on Sofanthiel's case since the first day, so if Sofanthiel flips scum, you've either pulled off one hell of a bus at their expense, or, more likely, you made an accurate call. I didn't think there was much to pay attention to beyond the Jack wagon after he flipped town. If this is a prompt to think about it and conclude something that you see and I don't, would it be too much to ask you to be direct?

It's about trying to understand your thinking well enough to attempt to evaluate your choices to understand your wincon.

It's about exactly what I said it is.  What patterns do you see in the conversations and voting around the D1 elimination?  And if you don't track that, why not?

I'm not asking about me even.  I'm asking about whatever you do see, or why you don't try to see.

[BlackHeartKabal]

If this is about Jack, I'm well aware that was a mistake, and the point about Jack not being dumb enough to out himself, plus Webadict's chewing me out over it are still in my mind - it's why I haven't been as confident about my judgment.

Apart from that, what's there to conclude? You've been on Sofanthiel's case since the first day, so if Sofanthiel flips scum, you've either pulled off one hell of a bus at their expense, or, more likely, you made an accurate call. I didn't think there was much to pay attention to beyond the Jack wagon after he flipped town. If this is a prompt to think about it and conclude something that you see and I don't, would it be too much to ask you to be direct?

It's about trying to understand your thinking well enough to attempt to evaluate your choices to understand your wincon.

It's about exactly what I said it is.  What patterns do you see in the conversations and voting around the D1 elimination?  And if you don't track that, why not?

I'm not asking about me even.  I'm asking about whatever you do see, or why you don't try to see.

Oh, you're being direct. Huh, my bad.

To begin, I would hazard that there must be at least one scum player on Jack's wagon, and, if there are multiple scum teams, one of which is called pirates, that team would explicitly not want to vote Jack - accordingly, if both scum teams exist, there are undoubtedly pirate players that didn't vote Jack D1, and the non-pirate scum team had at least one member on the Jack wagon.

Lenglon clearly has no capability to kill, or else Knightwing would be decorating the metaphorical wall - but they don't read as anything but town to me.

NQT's vote for Canadian isn't easy for me to get either, with everything we considered.

I think that Sofanthiel is a likely scum candidate with their behaviour, and that you're the only one carrying the torch of that observation you made day one, strengthened by the fact that Sofanthiel's critics have been dying left and right.

Following this, Sofanthiel is likely not a pirate. You, in turn, would be encouraged to follow the Jack wagon, unless you were scum and wanted to take out opposing scum - but then you wouldn't have dared make that hint regarding SK and pirates unless you somehow predicted this exact conclusion.

I don't have an independent wincon, I'm town. I'm simply very much aware, from experience, that even if we do eliminate all scum, it takes one third party going unnoticed long enough to jeopardize us last minute, so I've been trying my best to investigate on that angle.

[Imp]

you're the only one carrying the torch of that observation you made day one, strengthened by the fact that Sofanthiel's critics have been dying left and right.

Apart from that, what's there to conclude? You've been on Sofanthiel's case since the first day, so if Sofanthiel flips scum, you've either pulled off one hell of a bus at their expense, or, more likely, you made an accurate call.

I'm getting more curious about these claims of yours, about me and the Esteemed sofanthiel.

What do you remember about what I say I observed Day 1?

What do you remember about my being on Sofanthiel's case since the first day?

'One hell of a bus' should make it memorable and detailed.

What memories and what details?

[BlackHeartKabal]

you're the only one carrying the torch of that observation you made day one, strengthened by the fact that Sofanthiel's critics have been dying left and right.

Apart from that, what's there to conclude? You've been on Sofanthiel's case since the first day, so if Sofanthiel flips scum, you've either pulled off one hell of a bus at their expense, or, more likely, you made an accurate call.

I'm getting more curious about these claims of yours, about me and the Esteemed sofanthiel.

What do you remember about what I say I observed Day 1?

What do you remember about my being on Sofanthiel's case since the first day?

'One hell of a bus' should make it memorable and detailed.

What memories and what details?

You had good knowledge of the alignments in play due to your role, and you yourself admitted to me that you had an agenda are mental the highlights when I think of you. You thunderdomed hard with Jack, and Jack's... response tilted things against him, which put Jack in the spotlight for most of that time. There were things with you that had me ticking like a metronome between "Imp is a cornerstone of the Town and probably trustworthy" and "This is the exact sort of person that's going to kill everyone else when we hit sub-seven players". You pick up on Sofanthiel before most of the others for being too cagey and not giving as much as they wanted to grab, but you urge the SK to target pirates, but you act independently and focus on investigation, but you admit to me you have an agenda when I tell you I suspect you of being a third party.

In terms of "one hell of a bus being memorable and detailed", what's not obvious? It would be one hell of a bus if you two were scum because, if you both are, then that means that, by the first day, you were trying to get them killed for credibility, which would be a ruthless and very high risk, high reward play. I don't think that's the case now, though.

[Imp]

You had good knowledge of the alignments in play due to your role, and you yourself admitted to me that you had an agenda are mental the highlights when I think of you. You thunderdomed hard with Jack, and Jack's... response tilted things against him, which put Jack in the spotlight for most of that time. There were things with you that had me ticking like a metronome between "Imp is a cornerstone of the Town and probably trustworthy" and "This is the exact sort of person that's going to kill everyone else when we hit sub-seven players". You pick up on Sofanthiel before most of the others for being too cagey and not giving as much as they wanted to grab, but you urge the SK to target pirates, but you act independently and focus on investigation, but you admit to me you have an agenda when I tell you I suspect you of being a third party.

In terms of "one hell of a bus being memorable and detailed", what's not obvious? It would be one hell of a bus if you two were scum because, if you both are, then that means that, by the first day, you were trying to get them killed for credibility, which would be a ruthless and very high risk, high reward play. I don't think that's the case now, though.

To my thinking I sure did explore the Esteemed Euchrejack's thinking and understanding of why he did what he did/said what he said.  To me that's not thunderdoming - it's nearly identical what you and I are doing now, except I had more to go on related to that person's claims and everyones' memories are fresher.

To my thinking, I barely exchanged interactions with the Esteemed Sofanthiel back on D1.  I did join third on the pressure on him, and unlike the other two pressure voting, I had multiple questions with my vote as well as a read on him.

You follow up a couple hours after that read and questions but quote me from an earlier post - where I am still flipping out about the Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist maybe having no anti-town in play yet, maybe just all town that can turn and allies or something - which now that my role is gone none might see why I wondered that, having seen my own role and the Esteemed TricMagic's -

But you somehow turn this into the idea of if it can clear the Esteemed sofanthiel.

Shivers

Horses and zebras. My idea of it, presuming prior theories of two scum teams is correct, is that Jack is meant to build his own scum team on the first night - which, if correct, makes this an effective four in one. I do hope that I'm not tunneling on the potential value of this, though.

This doesn't clear sofanthiel if Jack flips scum

I don't even see the connection.

Just a few hours later, same chronological day, the Esteemed Hector13 also gives a read and some questions on the Esteemed Sofanthiel, which bothered me a bit at the time because it's nearly identical to my own.  However, I do think it's likely independent work, though I had to think about that a bit.

I'm surprised you're so focused on my 'focus' on the Esteemed Sofanthiel day 1 though.  Near as I can tell, I checked him out like other players, and my focus went to the Esteemed CrystalizedMire and the Esteemed Secretdorf.

So, here's a quote of my early read of that worthy, which you weirdly responded to a bit after with the idea of if the Esteemed EuchreJack's flip as scum could clear the Esteemed Sofanthiel.

Please do us a kindness and explain your thinking, and help me see what I got right about this person, so early?

Let's not entirely forget CrystalizedMire, in case, but, maybe 3 works even better.  Sofanthiel?

Hey buddy!

Here's my current read of you.

Came in with roleplay, switched to standard proceedure.  Y'vote Maximum Spin as you answer RVS, but you don't question them.

I know that you say have fun beside Elephant Parade, and you appear to rolefish at EP

Elephant Parade, Is your ability offensive or defensive?  Who do you plan to use it on?  Is my 2nd question even applicable to your secret power?

but you don't seem to like me asking you even what you were thinking -

Role fishing is considered a scum move because the mafia would know who to target. Also, I'm pretty sure we have this kind of talk before

If my role PM is anything to go by, this game seems exponentially more complex than that.

What were you thinking about and referring to when you said this?

I deliberately chose to omit such details; asking me to elaborate seems like an attempt to fish out my role.

Huh, so, it's okay if you do it, but not others.  Also, no.  I wanna know what you were thinking.  Are you thinking only about your role?  CrystalizedMire talked to you about rolefishing.  You answer oddly.  I ask you about what you're thinking; you suggest I'm rolefishing.  I'm asking you what your thoughts are.  If you submitted 'My thoughts' as your role, well, whoops.  I wasn't going for that.  But surely you have non-classified thoughts too?  Anything?

After all, you chose to not omit such details when you said what you said.  Why say it?  Just having funsies?

But what about your wincon, and your scumhunting?  You do this:

In fact, Max might actually be more likely to speak if I don't make what I want to hear so obvious.

I step forward, take a heroic pose, and say, "Then I have no choice but to take on the duty of enforcing it!"

So... my read ends with thinking you intend to coast into D2, that that's your strat.  Others can scumhunt, others can work.  You'll just take what looks good, and play, and look boldly heroic where it's not clearly work at all.

What do you think of that read?

What do you think about making that impression?

What are you going to do?

[Imp]

For comparison's sake, here's the other read, that I thought was so similar, following mine such a short time later:

Spoiler: spoiler for posts (click to show/hide)

BOOTING COGNITION SYSTEMS...
VISUAL INTERFACE INITIATION COMPLETE...
BEGINNING STANDARD OPERATION PROCEDURE...

sofanthiel: Which three players here do you know the most about and which three do you know the least about?

This is my first time playing with many of the participants currently present, so I know equally nothing about most of you.  If I had to pick those I possess any understanding of out of the few I'm acquainted with, it'd be The Canadian kitten, CrystalizedMire, and Elephant Parade.  I believe I have some kind of grasp of their habits and playstyles, though this is possibly due to them also being as new-ish as I am.  It's pretty tough to analyze the more experienced players, especially Maximum Spin.

sofanthiel: Who, besides yourself, do you hope survives until the end?

So far?  I'll say it's probably  Elephant Parade; however, because of a distinct lack of information on that front so early on, my only reason is that he's fun to play with.

Elephant Parade, Is your ability offensive or defensive?  Who do you plan to use it on?  Is my 2nd question even applicable to your secret power?

This is Esteemed sofanthiel’s first post, RP’s a bit, answers some RVS, asks some RVS, drops an RVS vote on Esteemed Maximum Spin with… no real impetus to get him to respond.

Esteemed sofanthiel’s second post clarifies further their position, among other things:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm. Defensive first vote, rolefishing, and a computer.

Defensive?  How so?  Regarding rolefishing, is that necessarily a mafia thing to do?

Question to you, why vote Max when you're literally get nothing out of them day 1?

He's a dangerous player who's hard to read.  My vote was half-RVS and half-expression of my wariness.  Plus, a little pressure has never hurt anyone, haha.

@sofa:  Why do you not wish to determine my alignment?

I very much do!  I wish to determine everyone's alignments, but the feasibility of that is questionable.

Acknowledges they consider Esteemed Maximum Spin to be a good player, and the vote was for pressure despite not actually providing any pressure with a question or accusation.

His next two posts [1] [2] are to do with RTD, bit pointless.

I ask him about his vote, he responds:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A bit-flip caused a thought to cross my mind as I spent the last 8 hours sitting motionless and processing all of the thus-far-available information.

Well, I'm not completely unkillable, but I'm not going to give away the situation in which I can be killed.

What if this is pure, concentrated bluffing?  An attempt to prevent us from lynching Spin by portraying it as a complete waste of our precious votes, perhaps?

I like the initiative in going after more experienced players, but do you have a question or something you could ask that might prompt a response? I'm pretty sure Esteemed Maximum Spin will ignore you otherwise.

I mean, he might (will probably) ignore you if you ask a question anyway but you at least have an excuse not to move your vote if he ignores you with a question than without.

That's the fun part!  As time begins inevitably running out, even the most mind-tampering-capable among the eighteen of us start getting desperate, and, just like in any good interrogation, asking questions becomes an optional formality.  In fact, Max might actually be more likely to speak if I don't make what I want to hear so obvious.

"The Law has little bite out here, little one."

I step forward, take a heroic pose, and say, "Then I have no choice but to take on the duty of enforcing it!"

Some paranoid throwing of shade  and some utter tosh about waiting until the end of the day for his first post RVS vote to actually get something useful - which I will readily accept I should have poked at more at the time, but got lost in my trying to catch up - and then saying that just… basically ignoring Esteemed Maximum Spin will be more useful than trying to engage with him?

Says he’s struggling with all the players here, which is fine. I find people saying that a little amusing since the number of players actually active and posting to keep track of isn’t that much more than a usual game, but I’m struggling with trying to figure out how to get the quiet ones involved too so *shrugs*

This brings us to today. Esteemed sofanthiel’s first post today is more of the same, votes Esteemed Maximum Spin again without anything else, though has put some effort into it since, while showing off their disengagement of the game by missing the posts in which Esteemed Lenglon and I provide some advice for Esteemed The Candian kitten to improve their hunting, before he expresses it further by woefully misunderstanding what Most Esteemed FallacyofUrist was saying about what the existence of a Pirate alignment would mean, despite it having been gone over by a few players before.

TL;DR I consider, based on your (disgusting! :p) policy of Lynch All Lurkers, Esteemed sofanthiel’s filler posts and apparent disengagement and misreading of what’s been happening have been more egregious than Esteemed The Canadian kitten’s almost complete absence until recently.

I haven’t really read anything since my last post.

Esteemed BlackHeartKabal, Why do you remember mine better than the other, and what is it about mine you think is so very accurate?

[Imp]

EBWOP, I see a 14 hour gap now, not the 2 hour gap I was thinking.  Silly clocks.  The rest of my observations and concerns stand though.

[notquitethere]

NQT's vote for Canadian isn't easy for me to get either, with everything we considered.

On D1? EOD was at like 3AM my time, I was fast asleep and couldn't react to whatever developments.

BHK, why are you posting competently now but were absent almost all of D2? Two players blocking you a wakeup call?

[Elephant Parade]

Who's claimed what? I'd make a spreadsheet but I'm PFP until the 27th

_{(I have a laptop but it's really slow and bad)}

[hector13]

D3 facts:

Esteemed Webadict died as a very simplified Warehouse 13.
Esteemed The Canadian kitten died and revived (the cat came back?)
Esteemed Crystalizedmire and Esteemed Kightwing64 acted out the lyrics to Fastball's The Way.

D3 claims:

Esteemed Imp:  Whut?  Oh, it's all so simple now.  Plus, 2 visitors to Esteemed ToonyMan last night and all I got was this lousy t-shirt of a new role.

Esteemed Toonyman:  Bus and swap between Esteemed Webadict and Esteemed Imp. 

Esteemed Secretdorf:  'I am a vote stealer.  Somehow I got 2.' (blatant twinsie of Esteemed Jim Groovester's N1 claim)

Esteemed Jim Groovester:  Didn't actually make a claim.  Also said someone did something to him they need to fess up for.

Esteemed Elephant Parade:  Blocky-bombing Esteemed BlackHeartKabal and got some creepy spirit voodoo (same as we saw before?)

Esteemed Maximum Spin:  Repeated an action, gained knowledge of flavor, and protected someone.

Esteemed Lenglon:  Esteemed Toonyman is not in a group chat.

Esteemed the Canadian Kitten:  Inspects Esteemed Sofanthiel

Esteemed notquitethere:  Blocked Esteemed BlackHeartKabal 'also got a spooky feeling after visiting BHK so I can confirm that part of EP's claim'  May be trying to confirm own action.  later said that spooky feeling was the text I reported D2, 'Marked By Death'.  Confirms has vote again after it was gone D2.

Esteemed sofanthiel:  laughter and no comment about night activities.  "I will reveal that information exclusively if I deem doing so beneficial or vital.  Neither is the case right now."

Esteemed Hector13:  Spoken, not claimed any action from N2 yet.

Not spoken yet:

Esteemed BlackHeartKabal

I'm not sure yet.  If you thought your game-life depended on how you scumhunted and interacted with others today, how would you handle yourself, what would you do?

I don't think Sofanthiel's a jester.

Also bears noting that Sofanthiel... wait, didn't Egan_BW target NQT as N1 kill? Then the bus was from somebody else? Anyway I was going to say that Sofanthiel was bussed with notquitethere when webadict had revealed his intention to inspect NQT so the bus could have been to give Mafia result on NQT. Well does anybody have anything to add about this?

Careful reading of OP makes me think we have no possible jesters.

Esteemed Egan_BW was also using a mafia night kill with some special extras.  From how this person was identified as the D2 elimination, and this in the roleflip:

(Mafiakill, Night) Broken DOOR [target]: You shatter the path to your Progenitor. Every player using an investigative action on you or your target is roleblocked, and you kill your target.

I expect any same-team mafia member(s) to expect the roleblock stuff from shared communication.  A second mafia team wouldn't know though.  Considering that, what are your thoughts?  And what are the rest of your thoughts?

I think that covers most of it.

I acted on Esteemed Imp, pretty sure Esteemed BlackHeartKabal claimed to have been blocked.

That means the kill was performed by Esteemed notquitethere, Esteemed sofanthiel, Esteemed Jim Groovester, or someone who was lying, or the banished.

[Imp]

Who's claimed what?

Hey from earlier and focused just on D3 stuff.

Doesn't show the few claims since.

Which are mainly:

Apologies - and Merry Christmas.

While I review the thread - I roleblocked Imp the prior night, and was visited in turn this night. I'm a ghost - the traditional "incorporeal spirit of someone that was previously dead and buried". And also a racer.

Right. I can confirm that I have a bomb strapped to me - or, well, the hood of my racecar, since there would be complications attaching a physical object to me. I am a roleblocker. If I visit someone, I roleblock them and apply Marked by Death, which, upon my own death, makes them a valid target for a one-shot kill. If I'm visited by a living player (Yes, a living player - take from that what you will, considering the prior text), I can't do anything that night, and Mark my visitor.

This is why I didn't claim before, and why I was so adamant about Jim being town after seeing his ability. The revivals are not my doing, and also have me on edge, because I don't know if those players are "technically dead" or something.

But there are a few others.

[Imp]

I acted on Esteemed Imp, pretty sure Esteemed BlackHeartKabal claimed to have been blocked.

That means the kill was performed by Esteemed notquitethere, Esteemed sofanthiel, Esteemed Jim Groovester, or someone who was lying, or the banished.

Given the bussing, Esteemed hector13, most likely you acted on the fallen Esteemed Webadict, but I'm not sure of that.

However, acting further on me is likely a less than usually effective thing to do, unless I noticeably break my posting restriction.