Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Imp]

Knightwing64

Who's your top town read?

Who's your top scum read?

What are your thoughts of what is going on in the thread, and what are you trying to follow more closely?

Secretdorf:

I hate your claim to prove yourself as town by how the votes for you work.  I hate that you think it impossible in a game like this that anyone other than town could potentially have that ability.  You can claim town or anything.  I don't hate that.

Your bid for power gain would work better if you strongly and clearly engaged with the thread and the players.  It's scummy to be sneaky and tell people what you want them to do, without telling them why.  It's really scummy to claim this proves you town.

Let's look at your 'case' presented on EuchreJack.

You claim you understand 'some peoples reasons' for 'feeling' EuchreJack isn't mafia.

Congratulations.  Identify those people, and explain what you understand of their reasons.  You just claimed you understand them, so you better know who and why.

You already messed up badly, your statement of 'I have not played with Jack before, so I must be excused for not agreeing with the opinion that town Jack somehow got him in such trouble through blunders.'  That's nonesense and as meaningless as your claim about proving yourself town by your ability.

But oh, you're so excited to count those votes.

I want your head.  You can fix that by proving that claim.  "I can understand some people's reasons for feeling Jack is not mafia".

Identify those people and detail, and discuss those 'why' for those people.  Or I call for your death.  And with more than 7 votes.  I expect so much more of you, and you claimed it, townie.

[Imp]

This is also not your first attempt to 'clear' yourself, Secretdorf.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"I would also have liked to note that Fallacy's example PMs clear me as they do not contain the wincon bit, but I guess they are not the real deal. Still, I asked about the wincon only because I thought there would be a stated wincon, and I wanted to here from Jack if he actually was anti-town or was just imagining it. Now I'm more inclined to believe it's the former."

Gee, who needs to clear themselves.  You know what makes someone look town?  Playing towards a town wincon.  Caring about the alignment of who they might lynch.  Trying to understand others, interact with them.  You're policy voting.  You're not showing thought or effort.

"Complying with a player's request for a votecount grants me a benefit which will become apparent once I actually do that. As for this being unconnected to the post I had quoted, yes it is: you somehow deleted my actual response to the quote. I said I would not do this service for Jack because he was reacting to everyone's posts in a funny way, and I figured he would ask me for a votecount if I offered, even though Mamobo had done one just a few posts ago."

You seem incredibly sneaky.  Direct and indirect and picky about what you want from specific who with unclear reasons.

You claim 'complying with a player's request for a votecount grants you a benefit'.

You claim 'I figured [EuchreJack] would ask me for a votecount if I offered, even though [one had been done] just a few posts ago'.

Explain that.  No, 'he was reacting to everyone's posts in a funny way' doesn't cut it.

Also really describes you, who seems manipulative, sneaky, tricky, and weird.

"I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,  and , so I'm going to note her as townlean."

Exciting.  She's my highest scum read, but I would rather go to D2 with her in the game than you, based on communication so far.  If you are lynched, I'll definitely consider your roleflip as I continue to evaluate everyone.  Be great to consider your townreads in connection to your actual alignment.

Oh yeah.  Reminds me.  Your claim of 'I have not played with Jack before, so I must be excused' ... I just got finished playing with you.  You were town then, and you played really well there.  Made sense, followed, cared, tried.  Nothing like this.  Wow, such a huge difference.  Care to explain why it's so different here?

I was your top town read that game.  I was scum, but playing 100% and hard for a town win, and hoping it went off the rails.

Currently, your towniest person is CrystalizedMire, wow.  When I knew you were town, you had way higher standards.  I wonder why you seem to have lower standards now, 'person who cares about who they have played with before', who isn't even evaluating here.

If you're going to vote someone, Euchre, I'd actually recommend Egan_BW or Secretdorf.  I don't know if they realized why, but both of them just made really suspicious posts. 

I'm guessing it's because I said something which only mafia should know? Is there something else?

I think Jack was claiming scum earlier, why do you think he' s town, webadict?

mmmmmmmm.  Oh good, you asked, you should be able to explain Webadict's reason for thinking EuchreJack isn't scum then, and it should be highly accurate, you should care about it, since you asked.  Great.  Really looking forward to this.  Especially with Webadict's 'UNO reverse' - Webadict's explained his reasoning.  And you already claimed to understand it, perfect.

@Secretdorf: Other than me, whom else do you think looks scummy?

Webadict, Jim, Lenglon, Elephant Parade look townish to me. I cannot think of anyone who seems scum to me. I think I'll do a reread of the thread later.

Followed by this:

I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,  and , so I'm going to note her as townlean.

So what has CrystalizedMire said between those times... 14 hours apart...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ahh, CrystalizedMire is talking to me. 

1. How could I be sure that you are actually telling the truth about the ability? While I thought you were town up till that point, I'm starting to doubt it now because of the fact of how you know about the bad guys. I have no way of confirming either of you two are actually town currently. And also, I did not know about the bad guys thing, I promise I wasn't lying about genuinely thinking that Maximum Spin was being genuine
2. I was just being tired when I wrote that okay? Also, I didn't realize you were looking for a response, I thought you were just finding it curious

A jump onto the Egan_BW wagon with questioning why (for RtD?  For knowing how the teams are colored?) and a reads list that twice says 'already voting Egan_BW'.  BlackHeartKabal, Lenglon, and Webadict town reads, Toonyman, Imp, Maximum Spin as the lean scum, with Toonyman in blue.

And notes, "Egan is currently at 7 votes they're not online right now so we probably have to wait a while to get a response from them"

Great!  Just 3 posts there, surely it's easy to explain your thinking that moved Cry, because of those recent posts as you said, 'I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,' ... oh, just emotion?  Neat.  If you can explain why, I'd love to read it.

And then, bandwagon hopping:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Third on the Egan_BW wagon, with this reason:

I can think of something but I'm not sure that's it. I'd like to hear what you have on Egan_bw.

Jumps off the Egan_BW bandwagon here with an unvote.  For this reason, "I thought there was something I was missing, and Webadict and Maximum_spin were not. Apparently that is not how it is."

Also makes this incredible statement:

"I was thinking that the other 'reason' behind Webadict's case on Egan was that... he was just inviting people to join the pirates. I thought whoever supported Webadict and Jack were being offered invites to Pirate team, and I was intrigued by this possibility: Cult-ish win is cooler than town win, I thought. But now seeing the number of people on the wagon, it is not possible as Jack admittedly can invite only three people. So now I am going to support Toonyman's argument that Jack be eliminated D1 because they possibly pose a lot of threat to town otherwise. I have read some defenses of Jack and they seem to me feeble in the face of the arguments advocating elimination of Jack."

You outright say you are cooperating in what you thought was a chance to be converted.  You who have tried twice to establish you're confirmed town for really bad reasons.

But, joy!  "I have read some defenses of Jack"  You claim recently to understand them.  I really expect details, you claim repeatedly to be tracking this.

Yet, despite that claim of intentions, instead jumps on another wagon 4th place:  claiming wanting to know sofanthiel's thoughts on the then-5 person EuchreJack wagon.

Sof posts about an hour later.  Secret doesn't respond to follow up or change his vote, Secret has something much more important to discuss:

...Anyway, I would like to request that, if not too inconvenient, any chosen player not be hammered until number for hammer plummets down to seven, and upon day end, at time of execution, only be voted by seven players maximum.

As for why, it grants a benefit which will be obvious soon after we do that.

And then he decides to answer lenglon's challenge of a bandwagon vote on Sofanthiel with a few details and then we're current with the vote on EuchreJack.

Great, Secretdorf.  Should be able to provide some very clear, specific details about what others say about their not thinking EuchreJack is scum.

Anything you wanna add to what you've said about why you say, "think Jack's a better option for the lynch"?

I caught these reasons so far:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have not played with Jack before
Euchrejack, I think should roleclaim
As to why [EuchreJack] did that, I think some of that is explained by what Toonyman is suggesting, but for definite answer, we need only remove Jack, I can't understand what's so hard about it!  ... oh wow!  How about we do that with you?  You seem to think that's a great idea for someone else - and hey, just trust you, you have bogus confirmed as town claims, two of them you've already tried to give.
I thought whoever supported Webadict and Jack were being offered invites to Pirate team, and I was intrigued by this possibility: Cult-ish win is cooler than town win, I thought. ... oh man.  You didn't get inducted into a cult, so time to kill EuchreJack?  Wow, that's... so townie!

Fallacy said pirates are the second scum team. Jack said he is pirate captain and was supposed to recruit 3 pirates. I'm not very brilliant, so I can only conclude that Jack  is the second mafia team. Am I missing something?  ... Uh-huh.  Never played with is fine.  If I point out to you that EuchreJack himself has at least posted in more than 50 different threads on this Mafia forum, many of them games he played in - you still think a not-first-time player's gonna go 'Oh, I am cult, I should recruit openly' instead of you thinking, "Something really strange is going on here.  Town should carefully figure out what, this could be very informative, and mistakes might be deadly' - oh, no.  Not Secretdorf this game, nah, just kill EuchreJack, it'll be fine.  'Sides, I'm Secretdorf, who you should empower without reason and accept as confirmed town for bogus reasons.  So incredibly townie.

Nah.  Just, "Anyway, we're probably down one scumteam, one left; and an SK maybe."  No need to check, investigate, or figure stuff out.  Just lynch, but fewer than 7 votes, k?

spits

[Imp]

Speaking of, 'mistakes might be deadly'.  Yeah.  From conversation, design set up details won't be discussed but if properly balanced, multiple simultaneous conversions are not off the table.

I still think EuchreJack's probably town, but cult or pirate-ally is possible.  And this is scary.

[Secretdorf]

Uh… I had 5 votes as a mafioso recently? Something like that. Would’ve been able to get more had I not painted myself into a corner.

Secretdorf:

I hate your claim to prove yourself as town by how the votes for you work.  I hate that you think it impossible in a game like this that anyone other than town could potentially have that ability.  You can claim town or anything.  I don't hate that.

Well, I guess it does not prove me town, then, if it is possible for mafia to have so many votes. I seriously did not consider it possible though, as I could hoard 6 or 7 votes by D4.

Your bid for power gain would work better if you strongly and clearly engaged with the thread and the players.  It's scummy to be sneaky and tell people what you want them to do, without telling them why.  It's really scummy to claim this proves you town.

Yes, I can understand that it would be much better if I cleared myself as town. However, I am having difficulty in this matter, as I have to read 10 or so pages after every period of inactivity, and once I have caught up, the earlier posts fade away from my conscious mind. And there are so many players, it is not possible to interact with everyone, but I have been trying, although I am not oblivious to the fact that my efforts have been severely insufficient. It does not help either that before this, I have not been voted even once, so I have been feeling, in a way, complacent and disengaged.[/ramble]

Let's look at your 'case' presented on EuchreJack.

You claim you understand 'some peoples reasons' for 'feeling' EuchreJack isn't mafia.

Congratulations.  Identify those people, and explain what you understand of their reasons.  You just claimed you understand them, so you better know who and why.

You already messed up badly, your statement of 'I have not played with Jack before, so I must be excused for not agreeing with the opinion that town Jack somehow got him in such trouble through blunders.'  That's nonesense and as meaningless as your claim about proving yourself town by your ability.

But oh, you're so excited to count those votes.

I want your head.  You can fix that by proving that claim.  "I can understand some people's reasons for feeling Jack is not mafia".

Identify those people and detail, and discuss those 'why' for those people.  Or I call for your death.  And with more than 7 votes.  I expect so much more of you, and you claimed it, townie.

Here's what I understand: 1) Webadict; he said that people were being disrespectful to Jack by assuming that Jack would make such mistakes as mafia, and that Jack gets himself into such predicaments as town. 2) Maximum spin; he has volunteered to be targeted by Jack's ability, and stated that he will forfeit if it's alignment changing(which I think is very unlikely; I believe Jack's claim that they turn people into millers). He has also said that this 'town Jack getting himself in unnecessary trouble' has happened in many past games. 3) Lenglon; she has stated a theory whereby Jack was a pirate-miller who turns people into millers, offered to make people pirates, but all the while was unaware that pirates are red, and when fallacy confirmed that pirates, if they exist, are red, Jack thought he had thrown the game, and expressed his despair publicly.

Lenglon's theory is possible, and I'm going to think Webadict and maximum spin also believe in it, with some variations. Webadict and Maximum spin, as you read in my recollection above, are citing their past experience with Jack as reason that the Jack in this game is also town and has unknowingly, through a mod error, got himself into trouble, and failed to clear himself.

That might be possible, but as I said, I have not played with such a Jack before, so I do not have such intuitive feelings. From my perspective, Jack rolled pirate king, a pirate role, but it was not coloured red in his role PM, so he assumed it was town or third party(IIRC he said at one point that pirate in his PM was coloured navy or something). However, when fallacy did his thing, he got really mad because the colouring mistake had cost him his chance of winning a game he was enthusiastic about. If Jack were pirate, as in second scumteam, I think he would have a kill or something that would have hinted that his was a mafia role, so I think it's possible that I'm wrong at one step or another, which is why I just asked Jack to roleclaim, so at least some confusion can be purged.

I see you have made more posts. Let me read them.

[Imp]

Whut....

I have not been voted even once, so I have been feeling, in a way, complacent and disengaged.

deep breath

So, if you want that kind of pressure and attention... try asking for it.

You can even RVS that.

Something like:

Player 1:  What do you find most scummy about me and why?

Player 2:  After Player 1 answers, dissect their opinion.  What do you agree and disagree with?

Player 3:  Show me your best scumhunting effort on me.  Pretend you're a lyncher and day's about to end.  How do you get me?

Player 4:  I'm bored.  I want pressure.  Let's have a scum off.  Get me if you can.

Yes, I can understand that it would be much better if I cleared myself as town.

What the... what the.... what....

Secretdorf.  Oh, for your fabled many votes, you seem to need them to pay attention.

Dude. Who here is 'cleared town'?  Who here has 'cleared themself as town'?  I think nobody - I do not have one person here I am 100% certain is town.  I do have someone here that I am 100% certain is not actually a member of any scum team, but that's all I am sure of.  I have several others I'm 70%+ sure are not scum team members.  Super interested to see if I'm right by the time the game ends and I can know.

Dude.  Play.  You get what you give.

"I have to read 10 or so pages after every period of inactivity, and once I have caught up, the earlier posts fade away from my conscious mind."

Okay.  That's a real challenge.

Here's what I do, maybe you want to try something similar.

I start reading the thread from wherever I want.  Maybe I go for 1 player's posts and read through them; maybe I work through a page.

I have notepad open.  I read until I notice something I want to note or reply to.  I right there, right then, write my answer or make my note, then keep going.  I do that until I feel it's time to post.

Others do that too. The Established Hector13 tends to include in his post what page he left off on, so he and we know where he's at, and he knows where to start catching up again with.

The rest, I'll read and respond to after sleep.

[Imp]

Oh yeah, had this ready to provide.  Then, night all.

My reads.  Note, I'm extremely focused on scum/not-scum this game so far, and that colors my reads.  Additionally, I expect there are many anti-towns and only one lynch, so also focusing on D2 presence preference.  Also, getting very tired, and always post 'too much', so this is skeletal.  Also only approximately ranked from most to least sure, and ranked more by willingness to go to D2 with than actual townieness.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Max:  Terrifying, as usual.  Playing towards pro-town, I think.  Definitely closely following thread and tracking multiple players well.  Null read, intend to keep watching, strongly willing to go to D2 with.

Jim Groovester:  Terrifying, as usual.  Entirely reasonable play, strongly pro-town, I think.  Slight town lean, strongly willing to go to D2 with.

Lenglon:  Excellent play.  Medium to strong town lean, strongly willing to go to D2 with.

Honorable hector13:  Delightful play.  Medium to strong town lean, strongly willing to go to D2 with.

Elephant Parade: I like the playstyle.  Good thinking.  Medium to strong town lean.  Strongly willing to go to day two with.

Webadict:  Complex, mix of play that seems on and off.  Mostly pro-town, I think.  Null read, strongly willing to go to D2 with.

ToonyMan:  Very interested in.  Have stuff to check out with.  Really like how is playing, but some odd vibes too.  Strongly willing to go to D2 with, also unfinished discussion.  Unclear read.  Want more discussion.

EuchreJack:  So complex.  Can't be scum.  Could be anything else.  Strong town lean.  Terrified but willing to go to D2 with, I think.

notquitethere:  Uneasy about.  Not much activity from.  Weakly willing to go to D2 with.  Mostly null read.

Egan_BW:  Very uneasy about.  Completely disengaged with the game now?  Is coming back?  I liked your original play, Egan_BW.  I liked your involved stuff, even though I have reasons not to get involved with your RtD and even to resist such things or try, until I check them out very carefully.  Weakly willing to go to D2 with as is, bumped up to willing if engaged again.  Has strong kill pirates focus, otherwise null read.

The Canadian kitten:  Communication issues.  Want to give more time to develop, want to see taking more proactive actions.  Weakly willing to go to D2 with.  Mostly null read.

sofanthiel:  Very flighty playstyle.  I have trouble seriously communicating with those, however, some analysis and movement towards a town win when pressured.  Weakly willing to go to D2 with as is.

CrystalizedMire:  Mechanics and behavior leans to my top scum read, mid to moderate odds scum. Communicating, so willing to go to D2 with.

BlackHeartKabal: Very low activity.  1 post with any substance in the last 48 hours, 2 in the last 60 hours.  Might be incredibly difficult to communicate with when needed.  Good viewpoints though when speaks, but not hear to discuss with hardly at all.  Very weakly willing to go to D2 with, but urgently need more activity from.

Knightwing:  Must do more.  I do like that seems to be reading at least some thread, but also not most/requesting 'rundowns on what missed'.  Unhappy to go to D2 with as is.  Total disinterest read, here for night game only?  Moderate scum lean.  Note protective of EuchreJack and wants ToonyMan to chill out, calls being mean.

Secretdorf:  Bandwagoning eagerly, trying to clear as town twice already for bogus reasons.  Have some questions out to.  Very unhappy to go with to D2 as is.

[Knightwing64]

I always appear to be lurking and this always makes me sus lmao.

I have school during the morning and whenever I get home I see ten pages of activity and it activates my procrastination syndrome.

Anyway, that’s the (valid) excuse for lurking I got

I still don’t think Jack is scum. I don’t believe Imp is scum either. I’m reluctant to say it bc Toony town claimed me but I’m a little Sus of him. Nothing concrete though

[webadict]

@Toony: I don't believe millers should claim. If they don't look scummy, they won't be suspected. It's a distraction in a game with this many players. Why are you trying to muddy up the waters with this many players? 

This is a pretty weird thing for somebody to say if their role specifies that they alignment inspect as something else. Maybe EuchreJack doesn't think anything of an ability that says he inspects as an atypical alignment and it doesn't factor into his decision making when he makes this statement, but who knows. EuchreJack does say he inspects as a pirate, but only after ToonyMan and Imp say pirate is a mafia faction.

?  I do not follow that logic.  It makes complete sense to me that EuchreJack, a Miller, states that Millers should not claim, and then doesn't claim Miller until he accidentally asks if people want to be Millers.  I believe he has even stated this exact opinion in previous games!  Unfrotunately, I am PFP, but I vaguely remember him stating a similar opinion in FBYOR5, and while he was Mafia in that game, I do not believe that opinion is reflective of his alignment and rather is an opinion he holds in general.  There may be other games, and I will look for them later.

[webadict]

Also, if anyone wants to bandwagon NQT, I would be down for that.

[Lenglon]

Also, if anyone wants to bandwagon NQT, I would be down for that.

I'm in a similar boat but want good logic to back the feel. NQT D1 is always super-lurky and void so I'd planned on ignoring em till D2. Results in em feeling sus without the logic to back it - which is where I am.
I also am waiting for Canadian's next post before I decide where my vote belongs, it's not moving before that.

[Secretdorf]

This is also not your first attempt to 'clear' yourself, Secretdorf.

... Yeah, it's not.

"I would also have liked to note that Fallacy's example PMs clear me as they do not contain the wincon bit, but I guess they are not the real deal. Still, I asked about the wincon only because I thought there would be a stated wincon, and I wanted to here from Jack if he actually was anti-town or was just imagining it. Now I'm more inclined to believe it's the former."

Gee, who needs to clear themselves.  You know what makes someone look town?  Playing towards a town wincon.  Caring about the alignment of who they might lynch.  Trying to understand others, interact with them.  You're policy voting.  You're not showing thought or effort.

Yes, I need to clear myself. Webadict had FoSed me, and when Fallacy's example role PMs nullified the reason, I considered it necessary to point that out. Policy voting? Jack looks like outed scum to me, and I just can't find energy to go after others, who all seem less scummy to me than him. I'm trying, basically.

"Complying with a player's request for a votecount grants me a benefit which will become apparent once I actually do that. As for this being unconnected to the post I had quoted, yes it is: you somehow deleted my actual response to the quote. I said I would not do this service for Jack because he was reacting to everyone's posts in a funny way, and I figured he would ask me for a votecount if I offered, even though Mamobo had done one just a few posts ago."

You seem incredibly sneaky.  Direct and indirect and picky about what you want from specific who with unclear reasons.

You claim 'complying with a player's request for a votecount grants you a benefit'.

You claim 'I figured [EuchreJack] would ask me for a votecount if I offered, even though [one had been done] just a few posts ago'.

Explain that.  No, 'he was reacting to everyone's posts in a funny way' doesn't cut it.

He was not in his right mind. The jackening, y'know? He was trolling, does that maybe cut it?

Also really describes you, who seems manipulative, sneaky, tricky, and weird.

Thanks, although I cannot connect this with the previous objections.

"I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,  and , so I'm going to note her as townlean."

Exciting.  She's my highest scum read, but I would rather go to D2 with her in the game than you, based on communication so far.  If you are lynched, I'll definitely consider your roleflip as I continue to evaluate everyone.  Be great to consider your townreads in connection to your actual alignment.

I think I just agreed with her reads, that's what prompted that. Just a minor thought.

Oh yeah.  Reminds me.  Your claim of 'I have not played with Jack before, so I must be excused' ... I just got finished playing with you.  You were town then, and you played really well there.  Made sense, followed, cared, tried.  Nothing like this.  Wow, such a huge difference.  Care to explain why it's so different here?

I was your top town read that game.  I was scum, but playing 100% and hard for a town win, and hoping it went off the rails.

Currently, your towniest person is CrystalizedMire, wow.  When I knew you were town, you had way higher standards.  I wonder why you seem to have lower standards now, 'person who cares about who they have played with before', who isn't even evaluating here.

That was 5 players, a few pages of posts. That was 'easy' mode, this is 'insane' difficulty. Also you cannot expect the same thing from me twice in a row. Crystallizedmire is not my highest townread, far from it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you're going to vote someone, Euchre, I'd actually recommend Egan_BW or Secretdorf.  I don't know if they realized why, but both of them just made really suspicious posts. 

I'm guessing it's because I said something which only mafia should know? Is there something else?

I think Jack was claiming scum earlier, why do you think he' s town, webadict?

mmmmmmmm.  Oh good, you asked, you should be able to explain Webadict's reason for thinking EuchreJack isn't scum then, and it should be highly accurate, you should care about it, since you asked.  Great.  Really looking forward to this.  Especially with Webadict's 'UNO reverse' - Webadict's explained his reasoning.  And you already claimed to understand it, perfect.

@Secretdorf: Other than me, whom else do you think looks scummy?

Webadict, Jim, Lenglon, Elephant Parade look townish to me. I cannot think of anyone who seems scum to me. I think I'll do a reread of the thread later.

Followed by this:

I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,  and , so I'm going to note her as townlean.

So what has CrystalizedMire said between those times... 14 hours apart...
[spoiler]Ahh, CrystalizedMire is talking to me. 

1. How could I be sure that you are actually telling the truth about the ability? While I thought you were town up till that point, I'm starting to doubt it now because of the fact of how you know about the bad guys. I have no way of confirming either of you two are actually town currently. And also, I did not know about the bad guys thing, I promise I wasn't lying about genuinely thinking that Maximum Spin was being genuine
2. I was just being tired when I wrote that okay? Also, I didn't realize you were looking for a response, I thought you were just finding it curious

A jump onto the Egan_BW wagon with questioning why (for RtD?  For knowing how the teams are colored?) and a reads list that twice says 'already voting Egan_BW'.  BlackHeartKabal, Lenglon, and Webadict town reads, Toonyman, Imp, Maximum Spin as the lean scum, with Toonyman in blue.

And notes, "Egan is currently at 7 votes they're not online right now so we probably have to wait a while to get a response from them"

Great!  Just 3 posts there, surely it's easy to explain your thinking that moved Cry, because of those recent posts as you said, 'I like Crystallizedmire's recent posts, reads seem genuine to me,' ... oh, just emotion?  Neat.  If you can explain why, I'd love to read it.

I think I Crystallizedmire's reads aligned with mine at that point. Beyond that I cannot remember anything. Perhaps, I'll reread their posts D2, I really do not feel like doing it right now, so don't force me.

And then, bandwagon hopping:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Third on the Egan_BW wagon, with this reason:

I can think of something but I'm not sure that's it. I'd like to hear what you have on Egan_bw.

Jumps off the Egan_BW bandwagon here with an unvote.  For this reason, "I thought there was something I was missing, and Webadict and Maximum_spin were not. Apparently that is not how it is."

Also makes this incredible statement:

"I was thinking that the other 'reason' behind Webadict's case on Egan was that... he was just inviting people to join the pirates. I thought whoever supported Webadict and Jack were being offered invites to Pirate team, and I was intrigued by this possibility: Cult-ish win is cooler than town win, I thought. But now seeing the number of people on the wagon, it is not possible as Jack admittedly can invite only three people. So now I am going to support Toonyman's argument that Jack be eliminated D1 because they possibly pose a lot of threat to town otherwise. I have read some defenses of Jack and they seem to me feeble in the face of the arguments advocating elimination of Jack."

You outright say you are cooperating in what you thought was a chance to be converted.  You who have tried twice to establish you're confirmed town for really bad reasons.

But, joy!  "I have read some defenses of Jack"  You claim recently to understand them.  I really expect details, you claim repeatedly to be tracking this.[/quote]I have since come to the realization that playing to change your wincon is dishonorable. Anyway, I didn't really think that was likely, but I wanted to hear webadict's case against Egan, which was unconvincing, and also based on meta reasons.

[spoiler]

Yet, despite that claim of intentions, instead jumps on another wagon 4th place:  claiming wanting to know sofanthiel's thoughts on the then-5 person EuchreJack wagon.

Sof posts about an hour later.  Secret doesn't respond to follow up or change his vote, Secret has something much more important to discuss:

...Anyway, I would like to request that, if not too inconvenient, any chosen player not be hammered until number for hammer plummets down to seven, and upon day end, at time of execution, only be voted by seven players maximum.

As for why, it grants a benefit which will be obvious soon after we do that.

And then he decides to answer lenglon's challenge of a bandwagon vote on Sofanthiel with a few details and then we're current with the vote on EuchreJack.

Great, Secretdorf.  Should be able to provide some very clear, specific details about what others say about their not thinking EuchreJack is scum.

Anything you wanna add to what you've said about why you say, "think Jack's a better option for the lynch"?

I caught these reasons so far:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have not played with Jack before
Euchrejack, I think should roleclaim
As to why [EuchreJack] did that, I think some of that is explained by what Toonyman is suggesting, but for definite answer, we need only remove Jack, I can't understand what's so hard about it!  ... oh wow!  How about we do that with you?  You seem to think that's a great idea for someone else - and hey, just trust you, you have bogus confirmed as town claims, two of them you've already tried to give.
I thought whoever supported Webadict and Jack were being offered invites to Pirate team, and I was intrigued by this possibility: Cult-ish win is cooler than town win, I thought. ... oh man.  You didn't get inducted into a cult, so time to kill EuchreJack?  Wow, that's... so townie!

Fallacy said pirates are the second scum team. Jack said he is pirate captain and was supposed to recruit 3 pirates. I'm not very brilliant, so I can only conclude that Jack  is the second mafia team. Am I missing something?  ... Uh-huh.  Never played with is fine.  If I point out to you that EuchreJack himself has at least posted in more than 50 different threads on this Mafia forum, many of them games he played in - you still think a not-first-time player's gonna go 'Oh, I am cult, I should recruit openly' instead of you thinking, "Something really strange is going on here.  Town should carefully figure out what, this could be very informative, and mistakes might be deadly' - oh, no.  Not Secretdorf this game, nah, just kill EuchreJack, it'll be fine.  'Sides, I'm Secretdorf, who you should empower without reason and accept as confirmed town for bogus reasons.  So incredibly townie.

Nah.  Just, "Anyway, we're probably down one scumteam, one left; and an SK maybe."  No need to check, investigate, or figure stuff out.  Just lynch, but fewer than 7 votes, k?

spits

Your comments are immensely helpful and constructive. It is also good to see that you find me very townie. I just explained my reason for going after Jack. If there's any hole in It, do tell.

Whut....

I have not been voted even once, so I have been feeling, in a way, complacent and disengaged.

deep breath

So, if you want that kind of pressure and attention... try asking for it.

You can even RVS that.

Something like:

Player 1:  What do you find most scummy about me and why?

Player 2:  After Player 1 answers, dissect their opinion.  What do you agree and disagree with?

Player 3:  Show me your best scumhunting effort on me.  Pretend you're a lyncher and day's about to end.  How do you get me?

Player 4:  I'm bored.  I want pressure.  Let's have a scum off.  Get me if you can.

Nope, you're doing pretty good.

Yes, I can understand that it would be much better if I cleared myself as town.

What the... what the.... what....

Secretdorf.  Oh, for your fabled many votes, you seem to need them to pay attention.

Dude. Who here is 'cleared town'?  Who here has 'cleared themself as town'?  I think nobody - I do not have one person here I am 100% certain is town.  I do have someone here that I am 100% certain is not actually a member of any scum team, but that's all I am sure of.  I have several others I'm 70%+ sure are not scum team members.  Super interested to see if I'm right by the time the game ends and I can know.

Dude.  Play.  You get what you give.

Huh? So that's what I've been missing all the time. You are a real life saver, thanks.

"I have to read 10 or so pages after every period of inactivity, and once I have caught up, the earlier posts fade away from my conscious mind."

Okay.  That's a real challenge.

Here's what I do, maybe you want to try something similar.

I start reading the thread from wherever I want.  Maybe I go for 1 player's posts and read through them; maybe I work through a page.

I have notepad open.  I read until I notice something I want to note or reply to.  I right there, right then, write my answer or make my note, then keep going.  I do that until I feel it's time to post.

Others do that too. The Established Hector13 tends to include in his post what page he left off on, so he and we know where he's at, and he knows where to start catching up again with.

I'll try that.

The rest, I'll read and respond to after sleep.

Not looking forward to It.

[webadict]

Also, if anyone wants to bandwagon NQT, I would be down for that.

I'm in a similar boat but want good logic to back the feel. NQT D1 is always super-lurky and void so I'd planned on ignoring em till D2. Results in em feeling sus without the logic to back it - which is where I am.
I also am waiting for Canadian's next post before I decide where my vote belongs, it's not moving before that.

Don't have any logic behind it, other than he has been rather absent except to jump on the Jack wagon.  I will bring proof Tomorrow, though.

Also, Secretdorf and Imp, we're not voting you guys, so would you mind keeping your entire argument in Spoilers?  It makes reading the thread difficult, and we're in the last 12 hours, so comprehension matters.

[Lenglon]

um, I agree that Imp's safe, but I do still have suspicion of dorf, and like seeing the reasoning and thoughts Web.

[webadict]

um, I agree that Imp's safe, but I do still have suspicion of dorf, and like seeing the reasoning and thoughts Web.

Secretdorf isn't a viable execution target.  We should be focusing our targets.  If you want Secretdorf, push the case now, but if you do that, you drop The Canadian kitten.

[webadict]

This isn't even about right or wrong targets.  It's about viability.  EuchreJack is a viable execution, even if it's a wrong one.

Consolidation of votes needs to happen sooner rather than later, or we're going to get last second changes.  If you want EuchreJack executed, then you can feel free to push side cases, but the sooner we have a top 3 or 4, the sooner we can settle on a final choice, and the sooner we can prepare for Tomorrow.