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[Maximum Spin]

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me.

Where did he say this?

Here:

sofanthiel can have some pressure, sure.

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

No, in the context of Imp's question, he's saying "now before anyone else is in it" as opposed to "only after picking buddies".

Your four lower points just, to me, show a total failure to understand the nature of Jacks.

[Imp]

TLDR:  I think ToonyMan's probably not scum, I evaluate why in depth below.  I wonder again if maybe EuchreJack could be cult and discuss my fears in depth below.  Anyone willing to discuss odds of cult EuchreJack, because I can't rule that one out?

@Imp:

Cool.  My reaction pulls were 'lazy', I only pulled on first mention of Pirate.

Various quotes from early, from Jack and others, not doing the work to link, but it's from early hours, all of it:

EJ: (first post of game) Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

EJ: (second post of game) When I die, I leave behind a hat that is stronger than my ability. While it could help Mafia, a Town player would get more use out of it.  (Later disclaims that statement)

TM: (First post of game, about 90 minutes after EJ's first post) Yeah, I'm a miller. I don't inspect as town.

But I am.

TM: (second post of game, 8 minutes after first): @Jack:  You wouldn't happen to leave behind a...straw hat if you die, would you, Jack?

EJ: Pirates don't leave behind straw hats.  Also: Toony is barred from being a pirate.

TM: @Jack: Are you claiming you're a pirate?

Imp: Disasterous 1st post, including Pirates are red and so much more.

TM: I can vouch for Imp here: My alignment inspects as Pirate instead of Town. This leads to me believe that Pirate is at the very least not a town alignment. Jack appears to be siding with or as a pirate here, which is not town behavior.

You appear to know quite a bit Imp of the Rings, thanks for enlightening us.

---

I withdraw my extreme concern.  I don't see ToonieMan instantly and deeply focusing on EuchreJack's claims.  With fuller context, this looks reasonably all reactions from from thread and the miller: Pirate to me.

ToonieMan's deep drive on EuchreJack starts about here:

Jack "Anyone want to be a pirate?"

Toony "Pirates aren't town."

Jack "You don't want to be a pirate?? I am a pirate you're not invited!!"

Imp "Are pirates mafia? I'm confused."

FoU "Yes."

lol

Of note, Imp was absolutely not confused... about 'pirates mafia' when Imp asked FoU for confirmation.  I already had confirmation in my PMs, I wanted confirmation in thread from FoU for all to see.

Also, Imp said 'Pirates are red' before ToonyMan said anything I can understand as 'Pirates aren't town'.

This could be a slip up, a reveal that ToonyMan may not have said it, but was thinking it/knew it/was typing with that knowledge even if not typing with that intent.

Then again, the role PM saying inspect as Pirate.

I think it's likely ToonyMan is not on a scumteam from the start of game.

Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently

Not to my read of it.  I asked a very specific question:

EuchreJack:

The role Pirate King gives me access to the Pirate chat.

Do you already have access to this?  I am so sorry, I wish I asked you this earlier.

EuchreJack answers:

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

My focus is, if he's in the chat, and it's a scumchat, he knows what I know scum know.  And he didn't do anything right if he has that info.

I wanted to know if he's in it right now.  He told me.  I didn't ask if he started in it - I think he did start in it if he's in it now.  But if true that rules out him as scum, to me, fully.  If he lies and he's pirate-ally, that's something to worry about for me.

I have confirmation from PM that cult chats no no, cult chat, only one cult if cult at all, is not a scum chat.  This means to me that they would not get informed about my ability, they would not see that Pirates are red through that means.

Here's my big fear, guys.  If that's a cult I don't want in.  It's a small probability.  If it's a cult it's not pirates.  Pirates are red.  Cult is not red.  I have reason to fear being hunted by alignment Pirate, not inspect pirate or piratechat, if any of those exist, just alignment.  Pirate is red, cults are purple which is not red.

But, could a cult hide behind the red of Pirate?  I can only, to my complete certainty, confirm from a mix of mechanics and behavior it seems IMPOSSIBLE that EuchreJack can possibly be scum.

Any other alignment is possible.  Cult is possible.  It too seems incredibly unlikely.  But maybe while EuchreJack lives, the 3 cultists inspect as Pirate, after death, as cult?  I fear this.  I don't know it.  I was essentially warned to decide what level of risk I wanted to accept, and given some reason to believe I should be careful what I accept, and given neat abilities that help others that only unlock if I'm in a private chat.  None of that's really mod-confirmed, it's mostly from my actual PM.  Some stuff I'm open to not having confirms on, if I was mod I wouldn't confirm some of that stuff except 'of course everyone should be careful or not, accept risks or not, as they choose'.  I really expect about the same from FallacyofUrist.

if cult is possible.  I still worry that maybe Webadict was inducted in some special way right after asking EuchreJack to check with mod about if Webadict could be brought into that private chat.

[ToonyMan]

I feel like it's rare for me to feel this damn strong about a player on Day 1. I find it baffling I'm getting handwave'd away with "ooooh, Jack wouldn't doooo thaaaat". Like what the fuck, take me seriously. I'm taking everything you say seriously. I've thought about Webadict and Max's defense of Jack a lot. And it bothers me to no end. I have this 10% waver where I'm like "is Jack really town?" But when I think about it hard, it doesn't add up. And I've done this over and over this weekend.

I don't think Sofanthiel is a good vote. I don't like the players voting them.

I'm trying to lock horns with Jack and figure him out, and he wants nothing to do with me. It's frustrating because I can hear Webadict going "you're just trying to re-affirm your suspicions, you don't plan on changing!" and that isn't true. There are some serious implications if Jack is town. I would really appreciate if he talked about his feelings towards what I said, and also about me even.

In my opinion I have multiple strong reasons why Jack is mafia. I've listed out four clear points for Max as well.

PPE:

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me.

Where did he say this?

Here:

sofanthiel can have some pressure, sure.

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

No, in the context of Imp's question, he's saying "now before anyone else is in it" as opposed to "only after picking buddies".

I don't understand. It still looks like Jack is saying he only just got Piratechat to me, but whatever it makes no sense to me if that's the case so I'll just look at it that way.

Your four lower points just, to me, show a total failure to understand the nature of Jacks.

Can you please explain?

[ToonyMan]

5. Jack is openly claiming he is in a PirateChat right now, in a game where Pirates are Mafia.

Literally where the hell are the actual Pirates if Jack is in a PirateChat by himself?

[Imp]

I don't think Sofanthiel is a good vote. I don't like the players voting them.

  I was one of them, until I feared Hammer.  Mine was pressure.  He's not my current higher lynch preferences.

There are some serious implications if Jack is town.

Please explain.  I think EuchreJack is most likely one of:

1) Town (VERY high probability in my eyes, behavior matches what I see from my perspective of what I know)
2) Pirate-ally, and probable pirate creator, locked out of pirate chat as well (low chance, but also fits my perspective.  Would be some strange choices later though, and likely also specifically trying to find what I didn't say until very recently)
3) Cult leader. (very low chance?  Wouldn't know the stuff but should know the cult stuff.  I have a PM question in that may help ease or increase my fears about this one)

But I am super eager for hearing the implications if EuchreJack is town, unless you have some reason to not say them.

"I don't understand. It still looks like Jack is saying he only just got Piratechat to me"

Answering my exact wording makes sense to me.  Again, I do fear traps, and we're talking about a trap if EuchreJack is pirate-ally or cult.  But answering my exact wording makes sense for EuchreJack as town too, and I think EuchreJack's paid a lot of attention to my focus, concerns, and interests about pirates.

"you alignment inspect as a Pirate"

I sure hope you're not actually quoting your PM, we're not supposed to, right?

"no directly quoting any PMs you have received from me. You are freely permitted to paraphrase. If you have access to a private chat where your alignment is mod-verified, such as the scumchat, you may quote PMs from me in there. If you have access to a private chat without alignment verification included, you do not possess this privilege. Never directly quote PMs from me in the main thread no matter your alignment."

Presuming you are paraphrasing, EuchreJack surely is too.  I do not expect you guys to say exactly the same things, so if EuchreJack is not saying the exact right words, that should be probed in a way that allows you to check that without requiring a direct quote, I think.  Hope?  Believe.

I would feel safer with you exploring that with EuchreJack if you choose to.

[Imp]

5. Jack is openly claiming he is in a PirateChat right now, in a game where Pirates are Mafia.

Literally where the hell are the actual Pirates if Jack is in a PirateChat by himself?

Hey, let's chat directly here.

I claim I know something all actual from-start-of-play scum teams (I don't know exactly how) were told this game.  And that it is impossible for anyone to be told this and not know that Alignment Pirate is equivalent to Alignment Mafia, and similar to alignment Serial Killer.

Do you believe me?

[Maximum Spin]

I have confirmation from PM that cult chats no no, cult chat, only one cult if cult at all, is not a scum chat.  This means to me that they would not get informed about my ability, they would not see that Pirates are red through that means.

Here's my big fear, guys.  If that's a cult I don't want in.  It's a small probability.  If it's a cult it's not pirates.  Pirates are red.  Cult is not red.  I have reason to fear being hunted by alignment Pirate, not inspect pirate or piratechat, if any of those exist, just alignment.  Pirate is red, cults are purple which is not red.

But, could a cult hide behind the red of Pirate?  I can only, to my complete certainty, confirm from a mix of mechanics and behavior it seems IMPOSSIBLE that EuchreJack can possibly be scum.

Any other alignment is possible.  Cult is possible.  It too seems incredibly unlikely.  But maybe while EuchreJack lives, the 3 cultists inspect as Pirate, after death, as cult?  I fear this.  I don't know it.  I was essentially warned to decide what level of risk I wanted to accept, and given some reason to believe I should be careful what I accept, and given neat abilities that help others that only unlock if I'm in a private chat.  None of that's really mod-confirmed, it's mostly from my actual PM.  Some stuff I'm open to not having confirms on, if I was mod I wouldn't confirm some of that stuff except 'of course everyone should be careful or not, accept risks or not, as they choose'.  I really expect about the same from FallacyofUrist.

if cult is possible.  I still worry that maybe Webadict was inducted in some special way right after asking EuchreJack to check with mod about if Webadict could be brought into that private chat.

All right, let me explain this.
In a previous game, Fallacy accidentally killed me when I should have received a revive, if he had accounted the actions properly. As penance, he told me that I could request any valid alignment in a future game of his.
For this game, feeling sprightly at the time, I requested the cult alignment if the game should end up being big enough that he would allow a cult to exist.
I did not receive the cult alignment. I'm just town. Therefore, if anyone else is a cultist, I got ripped off and I would be very angry.

Now, you don't have to believe that I'm not a cult leader right now, but since there can be only one, certainly, nobody else should be a cult leader.

I don't understand. It still looks like Jack is saying he only just got Piratechat to me, but whatever it makes no sense to me if that's the case so I'll just look at it that way.

Interpret "now" as "already".

Your four lower points just, to me, show a total failure to understand the nature of Jacks.

Can you please explain?

1. Jack won't answer me about how he felt when he got upset at the start of the game, I asked him to explain why exactly he was so angry, which people he was angry towards, and why. I think this would be helpful to figure out his alignment. I will ask him again to do this, I think this is the third or fourth time.
2. If Jack is a miller like me, then I can tell you it specifically says "you alignment inspect as a Pirate". I wasn't aware of the red color at the start of the game because I read my role via email, however it was very clear it was for an alignment inspect. If Jack is like me then we saw the same thing, even without the colors because I read via email first.
3. Jack has all these pirate abilities that I don't have, like having a piratechat and making people pirate millers. These would be useful for mafia, not town. In addition, Jack 100% wants to perform these actions when they could be harmful to town.
4. Jack refused to vote Jim with me, even though Jack called me and Imp scum at the time. Why would he not want to thunderdome with me if he knows he's town and thinks I'm scum?

1. Jack's pissy and doesn't want to talk to you anymore because you keep meanly calling him scum.
2. I'm sure he was told that, but there have been some games before with alignment inspect results that weren't real alignments. I even did that once, a lot. I also think it's something Fallacy would do so I imagine Jack would think it's something Fallacy would do.
3. It seems very likely that Jack would have pirate-themed abilities if he submitted Pirate King as a role. Having a chat is useful for both mafia (well, assumed for mafia) and town, as it's just a neighborizer. Making people millers is town-negative in principle, but that wouldn't stop a town Jack from wanting to do it because he would tend to overvalue the neighborizer (confer MVM3 round 5) and undervalue non-special inspects (probably correctly in this game). Moreover, town Jack would always want to use his powers even if they are net harmful to town. And in all fairness, if I had that power I would 100% use it too.
4. Why would he want to thunderdome with you? Not everyone likes to thunderdome. Jack tends to vacillate wildly between self-defensiveness and self-annihilation based on his momentary emotions.

5. Jack is openly claiming he is in a PirateChat right now, in a game where Pirates are Mafia.

Literally where the hell are the actual Pirates if Jack is in a PirateChat by himself?

5. There is no indication that there are any actual pirates but they could also just have their own chat and Jackchat is a decoy.

But also, look, I've stipulated that, if Jack's chat does anything shady to me, I will tell you. If he doesn't invite me, I'll tell you that too and as far as I'm concerned that's as good a reason to lynch him as any because it implies he doesn't want the truth told. I don't give a shit if it ends up being against my wincon.

[Maximum Spin]

"you alignment inspect as a Pirate"

I sure hope you're not actually quoting your PM, we're not supposed to, right?

Some kind of really short snippet anyone could easily fake is usually regarded as basically fine because who even knows if it's true.

[ToonyMan]

I'm not going to be able to respond adequately because I need to start heading to bed.

Depending on the real life events of tomorrow I may be busy at work until the evening.

I'll try to read what's been said so I can participate before the day ends.

[Imp]

"Now, you don't have to believe that I'm not a cult leader right now, but since there can be only one, certainly, nobody else should be a cult leader."

Got it.  Appreciate the answer.  You are Maximum Spin, who tell a lie so true we lynch the real doc and nobody kills you ever despite the fakeclaim.  I take that as evidence and consider it strongly.  You **are** on my already claimed list of people I fear were already inducted, because a 'what if snagging Webadict through whatever unique thing Webadict had changed the rules' (and the third inductee I fear is Elephant Parade) and I explained why elsewhere a few times.  I think that stuff's really low chance and if it's true, I don't think there can be more inductions because cult induction "This methodology will be limited."

And so many inductions would be crazy fast and doesn't make sense to me.  I'll feel much better or worse after I get my PM question answered.

"Some kind of really short snippet anyone could easily fake is usually regarded as basically fine because who even knows if it's true."

But I think ToonyMan is using that lack of wording as part of his belief that EuchreJack must be lying, because EuchreJack's saying it differently.

ToonyMan, am I wrong?

[Imp]

Unless someone's so scared of ToonyMan they think a D1 lynch of ToonyMan is really urgently 'do this or else town loses', I'd like ToonyMan to have a chance to be around D2.  I think we have other unsettled questions and scummier folks.

1) I like the playstyle.  Not just from the belief in me, but the rest of it.

2) There's gotta be more than one scum to hunt, is he really the scummiest?  Also, I'm not sure I'm seeing scum, and I want more answers if reasonable.

[Maximum Spin]

But I think ToonyMan is using that lack of wording as part of his belief that EuchreJack must be lying, because EuchreJack's saying it differently.

ToonyMan, am I wrong?

Deferent to Toony's answer, my interpretation was that he was saying that, if it says "alignment inspect", EuchreJack could not have believed it wasn't a real alignment.

Obviously I counter-argue.

Followup: Nobody's voting ToonyMan.

[Imp]

Hehe, there's 17 of us, and 9 to hammer.  This time of night, not fast.  But peak times, we can hammer in minutes if enough agreed.  I don't dare delay speaking up, stuff can end or change so fast.

[Imp]

Also... falls down in terror omg omg what if Maximum Spin is a cult leader?

I have no evidence if we have one.  But Maximum Spin just spun a story as strong as TricMagic's to me, about being scum.

What if Maximum Spin were faced with the choice of town... that could become a cult leader, if things work out that way?

I have no evidence, just panic.

[hector13]

Unvote

Right, I need to be clear that I’m still with Esteemed ToonyMan re:Esteemed EuchreJack, somewhat surprised the Esteemed sofanthiel wagon actually formed, but it was an effective means to get them out and posting, plus I do actually want to them to respond to at least my questions.

Basically I’m at the point where I can read the thread but not post too much (for the remainder of my night, yes, but not too much after) before the deadline, maybe a little bit in the afternoon tomorrow and for an uncertain period in the evening which may not overlap with the deadline, that depends on other people.

So yeah, I need to make my position known:

I would very much prefer Esteemed EuchreJack to be lynched, and I’m not wholly comfortable with an Esteemed sofanthiel lynch given that there are four or five other players who have just dissolved into the background too, but… hugely reluctant support would be given to it, though I’d be calling for an Esteemed EuchreJack lynch the entire time.