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[Lenglon]

No problem, take your time.

[Maximum Spin]

web, it is not just the fact that Max is lying about his powers (or at least exaggerating the scope of his abilities); it's why he originally began doing it.  He started during the wagon as a defense by portraying it as a total waste of votes.  Additionally, do you really think he's sincere about the promise to inform us upon being recruited into the pirate gang?  It almost feels like you disregarded those parts of my investigation on purpose.

I guess I should respond to this since it was about me.
1) I started talking about my abilities in my first post. I think. I'm pretty sure, at least. Definitely in one of the early ones. The timing is constrained by me actually being here to post.
2) There was never a wagon on me. Like two people voted me at one point and I didn't care.
3) You're stupid if you think that was a "defense". I know you know how mafia works.

[sofanthiel]

Role name doesn't count.  Inspect doesn't count.  Not to me, and shouldn't much to you.  Alignment pirate, that matters.

So Jack and Toony are pirates, yet they both claim to not belong to the pirate alignment, which is itself separate from pirate roles?  Sorry if this has already been chewed up earlier, as I only recently became invested in the situation after Jack directed my attention to Fallay's clarification, which outright stated that pirates are scum.

[Imp]

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

Everyone, I make a very strong claim.  I believe it completely, I consider it mod confirmed.

If EuchreJack is in a chat, no matter what it is called, I don't care if it was called Mafiachat.

That chat cannot be a scum team chat as of start of play.  EuchreJack themselves cannot be scum as of start of play.

Every existing scum team was informed that Pirates are Red, in a way that makes it obvious that Pirates and Mafia are equivalent.

If EuchreJack is honest about having access to that chat, then if it was a scum chat it would have the info about my ability in it.  Which would inform about Pirates and Mafia being a lot alike, even if the thing is handled in some 'there are no colors here' fashion.  It also removes all doubt.  Pirate is an alignment.  And a color red, but if you can't see the color, you see the word alignment.  I believe based on what I see and have been told, there is zero chance of confusion, period.  If EuchreJack can see that chat, and my ability is in there, EuchreJack could not have been confused about what Pirate means, even if he didn't think to ask.  It would have made him hesitate, I feel sure, to openly ask who wants to be a pirate.

I think he had no idea pirate was an alignment at all.  I bet his PM words it very clearly in a way....

So I think Pirate means many things here.  An inspect result, an actual Alignment, a chat, maybe more.

I'm still super scared.  EuchreJack, town you be ... no.  Scum you cannot be, but I cannot say what you are, because scum-ally you could be, I cannot rule that out fully.

But, precious and prized, honorable and valued EuchreJack, Is it possible you can delay or avoid or not use that ability to create that Piratechat group for a day or more?

I am not asking you to.  I am very careful about what I ask, especially for.  However, I ask if you can, is it possible.

And if you haven't yet, are you interested in asking that tricky, genius, awesome, confusing FallacyofUrist every question imaginable about that ability and the rest of your role PM, including:

Could my use of my abilities create the alignment Pirate?

because....

Again, please talk to me about your role so I can help you understand it. You can't just say 'what am I missing', but you can ask me about any details you like or even make absurd hypotheticals. Exact wording really, truly matters, and subtle details can help or hinder you, so be aware of them.

I really think you need to unless you're Pirate-ally.  Cause town and all.  I know it's hard and I got offered something like choices too, sort of.  And I saw TricMagic's roleflip.

But what if you have the choice to create the scumteam, and you don't have to?  And what if you might create it by accident, not knowing... and you don't have to?

[sofanthiel]

I get it.

Jack is a fake pirate and can turn people into fake pirates.

[Egan_BW]

What do you think about that towering wagon on you, and how it fell apart?  Why did it happen, and why did it stop?

A bit odd that it fell apart, but I wasn't really paying any attention at the time. Web does this thing where he says that he's 99% sure that someone's scum just to get them to panic, but I didn't really have time or desire to play that game, so it just ended with the next bandwagon to arrive.

You were doing a RtD thingy.  I note that you dropped the keyfabe somewhat when pirates got discussed.  Had you considered just throwing an [OOC: whatever you need to say] on it, or would that break your feel too much too?

I'd considered that, but too lazy.

You're iffy about how you are using your RtD thingy.  I wonder if it has any in-game value beyond how we talk about it and react to it, and if it already achieved your purpose for it to some extent, making it very easy to drop, perhaps, until it is useful again.

As funny as it is to lead you on about it, the RTD isn't role or faction related in any way, and you can feel free to engage with it or not with no mechanical consequences. I'm not sure what value can be gotten out of people's reaction to it, but you never know!

You appear to have chosen to accept some risk in your direct statements about Pirates and their redness.  You broke keyfabe to do so.

I didn't really see it that way. I just hate to watch people run around missing vital information, such as pirates being scum and just volunteering to join up.

I suspect you are not scum.  I think you are possibly reasonably town-aligned.  What do you think about that impression I have?

That's generous. Didn't you see me slip that I have a scum role PM and waste town's time on meaningless frivolities?

[Egan_BW]

Do remember that Tric was town but could intentionally create and induct people into an SK pseudo-faction. EJ's thing could be similar.

[sofanthiel]

Unvote

[webadict]

Well, sofanthiel's now at 4, if Steamed webadict is interested in switching and Euchrejack will get down off his gibbet for a minute.

Sure.  sofanthiel

[Mamobo]

Vote Count
------------------------
-> sofanthiel       --6-- hector13*, Imp*, Secretdorf*, Maximum Spin*, EuchreJack*, webadict*,
EuchreJack          --4-- BlackHeartKabal*, ToonyMan*, Egan_BW*, notquitethere*,
Imp                 --3-- The Canadian kitten*, Elephant Parade*, Crystalizedmire*,
Egan_BW             --1-- Jim Groovester*,
The Canadian kitten --1-- Lenglon*,
BlackHeartKabal     --0--
Crystalizedmire     --0--
Elephant Parade     --0--
hector13            --0--
Jim Groovester      --0--
Knightwing64        --0--
Lenglon             --0--
Maximum Spin        --0--
notquitethere       --0--
Secretdorf          --0--
ToonyMan            --0--
webadict            --0--
No One              --0--

Not Voting          --2-- Knightwing64, sofanthiel*,

9 to Hammer. Day ends on December 18, 2023 at 20:00 Central Standard Time (~27 hours remaining).

[Imp]

Unvote

I don't want hammers.  I am not done with this day, wow.

[Maximum Spin]

I don't want a hammer yet, but I do want the number of votes to go above 7 because I do not trust Secretdorf.

[The Canadian kitten]

Following Lenglon's advice, I decided to do case/theory on Elephant parade

EP asks a lot of questions, trying to figure out the purpose and effects of Jack's piratization ability. They mainly focus on first Jack for pressure and to gain more information on Jack's ability. They initially offer themself as a test subject before backing out due to uninterest and seeing that it benefits town more if they were not chosen. EP also has an auto ability that would interfere with inspects it seems. As they asked for Web's super inspect and decided against it. The auto likely is able to affect the visiting player or their actions. Maybe a self defense auto? That kills players if they visit or automatically fail the visiting player action?

EP also focues on Imp for rambling and being nonsensical in their analysis (or overanalysis) and thinks that Imp is likely scum, using their long walls of text to disguise as a town player doing analysis, and would also rather lynch someone who they think is likely scum than a lurker.

Also EP considered voting Egan purely for the lack of engagement of the actual mafia game.

I find EP to be likely to be town, for they scumhunt on Imp and Jack, asks questions to clarify Jack's and Web's abilities and limitations. They prefer to go for a lynch on a player rather than a policy lynch, but understands the reasoning of the policy lynch and have no reason to argue against it.

Hopefully this is of semi reasonable use. But likely not.



Also I realized that I never answered EP's question so

The Canadian kitten: Out of everyone you've played with before, who do you consider the most threatening player?

I actually consider you the most threatening player your cases were solid and able to convince other people of it.

[webadict]

That's not a compelling argument, since the intended purpose of claiming Actions on Day 1 is to confuse the scum, but also to give clearance to other players.

web, it is not just the fact that Max is lying about his powers (or at least exaggerating the scope of his abilities); it's why he originally began doing it.  He started during the wagon as a defense by portraying it as a total waste of votes.  Additionally, do you really think he's sincere about the promise to inform us upon being recruited into the pirate gang?  It almost feels like you disregarded those parts of my investigation on purpose.

No, I think he had one vote on him when he said those things.  In fact, I might have been the one that voted him for those things!  I think he would absolutely join a pirate gang, Town or scum, especially if Jim was in it.

Those aren't solid points.  You have to convince me that he was acting either in the favor of scum or against the Town.  That could be using bad arguments against someone.  It could be performing actions that are scummy.  It could be that he feels ingenuine.  But, no, you're gonna have a much better time pushing for a vote on pretty much 75% of the other players.

[Imp]

Maximum Spin

I don't want a hammer yet, but I do want the number of votes to go above 7 because I do not trust Secretdorf.

I need more convincing.  I'm unconvinced but okay with a sofanthiel lynch at this moment (I am not okay with a lynch of anyone at this moment!! I want more D1 time!!), but what about others many are concerned with?

I'd rather see more answers come willingly out of sofanthiel D2 than fail to get useful communication from The Canadian kitten D2.  I'm not even thinking LAL, I'm thinking, 'the heck can we even work together' - and that's not about the vote at all, it's about communication.

Also, woo!  Communication from The Canadian kitten.  See?  There's use for this day yet.

That said, if you think it helps you to convince me, I am open minded, I just need to see some pretty high value in risking a hammer.  We have 29 hours left to natural day end.  I'm cool with ending it on a hammer close to that time, to help reduce chance of ploys near end, if we agree on that.