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[Mamobo]

Vote Count
------------------------
-> EuchreJack       --4-- ToonyMan*, hector13*, Egan_BW*, notquitethere*,
-> Imp              --4-- Elephant Parade*, Maximum Spin*, Crystalizedmire*, webadict*,
Egan_BW             --2-- EuchreJack*, Jim Groovester*,
Crystalizedmire     --1-- Imp*,
Jim Groovester      --1-- BlackHeartKabal*,
Knightwing64        --1-- Lenglon*,
Maximum Spin        --1-- sofanthiel*,
BlackHeartKabal     --0--
Elephant Parade     --0--
hector13            --0--
Lenglon             --0--
notquitethere       --0--
Secretdorf          --0--
sofanthiel          --0--
The Canadian kitten --0--
ToonyMan            --0--
TricMagic           --0--
webadict            --0--
No One              --0--

Not Voting          --4-- Knightwing64, Secretdorf*, The Canadian kitten, TricMagic*,

10 to Hammer. Day ends on December 18, 2023 at 20:00 Central Standard Time (~49 hours remaining).

NOTE: In the event of a tie, no one has determined what happens.

[Maximum Spin]

Max, Tric's role does look awfully like a conversion role. Like the kind of cult-adjacent thing I was suggesting could happen.

...so? I didn't say something like that couldn't exist.

[webadict]

Bad bot, no trimming the spoilers

Which of your own posts do you think were the most helpful during the Day?  You are allowed to include all spoilers that were stripped out, if that makes a difference

[Imp]

Why would you be afraid of a hammer?  I think we're all ready to end Today.

Oh, are we talking again?  Amazing.  I don't have a post restriction against being mean.  I choose to be whatever I am.

I don't think a hammer helps town.  We have more info to get.  I think a hammer really helps pirates, especially if it's the right hammer.  No thanks.

I actually don't think Imp is as Townie as you think, but I don't think he's worth being top vote right now.  But, I need him to chill out a bit, or we're going to get nowhere. 

Oh, wow.  Did you just try to imply that I, me, need to get in your line and obey you or 'we' get nowhere?

I have some power.  I don't have that one.  I can't stop 'us'.  Or time.  At least not today, and I don't think ever.  Talk about fluff, foolishness, nonsense and blather.   So, that reported alignment wipe.  That you talked about hugely and then went silent about.  What do you currently claim about it?

Looks to Hector13

I like how you're playing.  If it is your choice, I hope you continue to play well, sanely, and clearly.  I'm scared of you, but less, and that scares me.

Does not quite look at ToonyMan

I'm scared of you, too, but I also like how you're playing.  I have the same hopes, should those be your choices.

Frowns at Maximum Spin

I wonder how that would affect an SK-hunter, though, since SKs can win while dead... but Tric never actually became one... but if everyone died, would that still be technically an SK victory where an SK-hunter loses even though there's no SK faction (allowing town to still win, I guess)?

That was probably already answered.

FallacyofUrist - [1] Does a Pirate-hunter leave play when the last Pirate dies?  [2] Does the survival of any Pirate-miller that are actually town affect the wincon of a Pirate-hunter, should one exist?

[1] Yes. Well, in more absurd circumstances, no, but usually yes. If it's still possible for the Pirates to win they've all died, somehow, then the Pirate-Hunter would remain in play. It's just that, usually, once a faction is totally eliminated, their chance of victory is nil.

We're down a town who could have become an SK.  But nobody said there was just one SK.  And nobody left the game with Tricmagic when Tricmagic died.  So, if there's someone who is an SK ally, then they win with the SK, be there one or many SK, alive or dead SK.  But ask your questions, of course.

Who can talk to me about.... oh.

@FallacyofUrist Is it possible for a scum team to 'need' someone else, like a scum-ally, alive for some sort of benefit?

Also, need to adjust whatever Mamobo quotes because it's now 9 to hammer, not 10.

And, when I asked this:

FallacyofUrist:  [1] Hey, what can we all know about how those ally things work?  What are all the possible alignments of a scumflavor-ally?

I was trying to ask, can they also be town?  Or be something else?  at the same time as being their scumflavor-ally?  Or exclusive, so there would never be someone who was simultaneously scum-ally and town at once?  Or scumflavor-ally and something else at once?

"[2]: The usual rule is, play to win according to your win condition. The corner cases of that are... If your role is built to change your own alignment (rare, but as seen with Tric's role, possible), then it's completely reasonable to play into that, but you aren't obligated to. There's also the case where it's become impossible or very unlikely for you to win as your own alignment, but conversion is on the table for you - in that case, it's alright to seek out a conversion."  I don't like that.  Who cares, but town should try to win as town, not try to become something else.  If you are **taken** yippee if you wanted to be taken.  It's horrible to have any doubt what your wincon is.  I want to recommend "Imply something will change" as far as you go.  Why make 'Mark as town' ever have to think Mark plays against a town wincon?  That... hurts.  And confuses the heck out of me.  It also means I can't trust actual allies, if I ever have any or think I might.  Because they themselves are possibly working to become something else, and may not even take me with them.  At least consider making it an accident for them, so they are plausibly working towards their assigned wincon and it just happens because they played well and achieved some goal and boom, it was that?  That makes their role change 'not on them' which can matter a lot.

Looks around the group with dismay.

While I do think we may need to kill EuchreJack for a town win, I still suspect that there's a real chance they're ally to a team that didn't even exist at start of play.  They're in play because their team can still win, they just didn't have a team yet.  I suspect killing them just wastes town's time.

[Lenglon]

...

Esteemed Lenglon

Jack: Please do not recruit Max or Toony. I would prefer not to explain why I am making this request until day 2, but will if it is insisted upon.

Considering Esteemed Maximum Spin is under suspicion of having been recruited, are you willing to expand on this?

Unvote: I have some mixed thoughts on this development, want to let it simmer a bit.

What were your mixed thoughts? You may have presented them later, but I'll ask anyway, in case you didn't.

...

Regarding your first question, I can, but I would really rather not.

As to the second:

I do think Jack is the best option we currently have for a D1 lynch in terms of setup simplification, but I can't shake the feeling that his entire pirate crew are effectively Masons, not a second Mafia. It's the old emotion vs logic thing, logic says kill him, emotion says he's absolutely not scum. shrugs

This was true at the moment of unvote, true at the moment I said it, and is still true even now. I cannot convince myself that Jack is actually scum, and I cannot provide a logical reason for that. I don't really have a problem with a Jack lynch, but he isn't going to get my personal vote.

Frankly, I think the town is ripping itself apart day one again, that all the top lynch candidates are town, and that the best use of the lynch would be to remove players behaving in a problematic way such as the lurking Canadian and Knightwing.

[webadict]

So, that reported alignment wipe.  That you talked about hugely and then went silent about.  What do you currently claim about it?

Please quote where I said I could remove an alignment, thank you.  I'll give you a hint, it was in my first post where I didn't claim that

[Maximum Spin]

Frowns at Maximum Spin

I wonder how that would affect an SK-hunter, though, since SKs can win while dead... but Tric never actually became one... but if everyone died, would that still be technically an SK victory where an SK-hunter loses even though there's no SK faction (allowing town to still win, I guess)?

That was probably already answered.

FallacyofUrist - [1] Does a Pirate-hunter leave play when the last Pirate dies?  [2] Does the survival of any Pirate-miller that are actually town affect the wincon of a Pirate-hunter, should one exist?

[1] Yes. Well, in more absurd circumstances, no, but usually yes. If it's still possible for the Pirates to win they've all died, somehow, then the Pirate-Hunter would remain in play. It's just that, usually, once a faction is totally eliminated, their chance of victory is nil.

That's explicitly not how SKs work. SKs can win if they're dead. That's how Tric won as an SK in the game that started his "dragon" meme.

[Imp]

Lenglon

I can't shake the feeling that his entire pirate crew are effectively Masons, not a second Mafia. It's the old emotion vs logic thing, logic says kill him, emotion says he's absolutely not scum. shrugs

This was true at the moment of unvote, true at the moment I said it, and is still true even now. I cannot convince myself that Jack is actually scum, and I cannot provide a logical reason for that. I don't really have a problem with a Jack lynch, but he isn't going to get my personal vote.

I have a problem with your masons claim.

For reasons.

But for your reference here is the Total List Of Alignments. I will not include any alignments outside of these, and the win conditions will always be as stated.

Spoiler: Alignments (click to show/hide)

(Always Appears) The Town must eliminate every anti-Town player and have at least one living Town player to win. Anti-Town players are any players that have win conditions directly opposed to the Town. A Mafia player would be anti-Town, but a Survivor would not be.

(Will Probably Appear) The Mafia must eliminate enough players such that the number of living Mafia players equal or outnumber the other living players, and furthermore at least one Mafia player must still be alive. This win condition will only trigger if there are no remaining ways to eliminate the Mafia - so a Town double voter or vigilante killer could obstruct it. The Mafia will always possess a totally private scumchat which any living Mafia may communicate freely in, as well as a factional Mafiakill. In a game with a secondary scumteam, the Mafiakill may kill in a less direct manner, otherwise it will be a straightforwards kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The other scumteam may take up any villainous-sounding factional name. They share the same rules and win condition as the Mafia - and yes, they will need to fight the Mafia in order to achieve their win condition, and vice versa, because it turns out this town isn't big enough for two groups of murderers.

All alignments below this line belong to the Third Parties category.

(Common) The Mafia-Ally simply wins when the Mafia players do, without actively being on their team (and thus gaining none of their special privileges).
--(Rare) The Other-Ally could be allied to any of the alignments present. While not being of that alignment, they will win when a player that possesses that alignment wins.

(Uncommon) The Survivor must be alive at the end of a certain Day number, including surviving the execution that Day, in order to win. Depending on game size this number will probably be 3, 4, or 5. If the game ends before that number they will also lose.
--(Rare) The Joint-Survivor exists as a team of two. They have the win condition of the Survivor, but modified - at least one of them must be alive at the selected time.

Any type of Survivor that wins immediately exits the game.

(Uncommon) The Serial Killer wins when every player that is not themselves has been eliminated. If every player including themselves is dead, they will still win. They typically have some form of lethal ability to help accomplish this, though usually not so direct as the Mafia's kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The Cult win when the number of living players of their alignment equal or outnumber all non-Cult remaining living players, and there is no longer any way to stop them through kills, vote manipulation, or otherwise. As a courtesy, if there is a Cult, I guarantee you that at the start of the game there will only ever be one Cult player. The Cult player will possess a means of transforming any player that is not scum or Joint-Survivor into another Cult player. This methodology will be limited.

(Rare) The Hunter is opposed to a specific alignment decided by me. As long as that alignment loses, the Hunter wins. If their opposed target is Town then they count as anti-Town, otherwise they do not. The Hunter need not be alive to accomplish this win condition.

Our mod says masons don't exist in this game.

Whatever you feel about Euchrejack, good for you.  Masons - shouldn't exist as an alignment per the mod.  What about his Pirates, or any other Pirates?

We have 3 players reporting they have PMs that tell them Pirates are a red faction.  I also don't think we... town... really need to kill EuchreJack, though I'm not sure of it.

What about his Pirates, though?  Do you think they need to die, why or not?

Frankly, I think the town is ripping itself apart day one again, that all the top lynch candidates are town, and that the best use of the lynch would be to remove players behaving in a problematic way such as the lurking Canadian and Knightwing.

Potentially interesting.  Let's try to pull them out, get them involved, and deal with them as we must - but I won't take people I feel are actually working against a town wincon below a near silent person.

Webadict
Grins  Thanks, I needed that.

Please quote where I said I could remove an alignment, thank you.  I'll give you a hint, it was in my first post where I didn't claim that

Back to your actual claim though.  What do you claim now about it?  Still feel the same as you did?  Still claim to have it?

Maximum Spin

That's explicitly not how SKs work. SKs can win if they're dead. That's how Tric won as an SK in the game that started his "dragon" meme.

Uh-huh.  Goodie.  So, like a pirate-ally, who would remain in play if there was a chance that pirates could still win, since a sk-ally can still win even with all sk dead, maybe... with a mod probably intensely watching to remove them once the chance of everyone dead is gone, if it is before end of play....

Or, wanna ask the mod?  In PM or here?

Also, what's your goal in discussing this with us?

[Elephant Parade]

Mason isn't an alignment

[FallacyofUrist]

@FallacyofUrist <1> Is it possible for a scum team to 'need' someone else, like a scum-ally, alive for some sort of benefit?

<2> I was trying to ask, can they also be town?  Or be something else?  at the same time as being their scumflavor-ally?  Or exclusive, so there would never be someone who was simultaneously scum-ally and town at once?  Or scumflavor-ally and something else at once?

"[2]: The usual rule is, play to win according to your win condition. The corner cases of that are... If your role is built to change your own alignment (rare, but as seen with Tric's role, possible), then it's completely reasonable to play into that, but you aren't obligated to. There's also the case where it's become impossible or very unlikely for you to win as your own alignment, but conversion is on the table for you - in that case, it's alright to seek out a conversion."  <3> I don't like that.  Who cares, but town should try to win as town, not try to become something else.  If you are **taken** yippee if you wanted to be taken.  It's horrible to have any doubt what your wincon is.  I want to recommend "Imply something will change" as far as you go.  Why make 'Mark as town' ever have to think Mark plays against a town wincon?  That... hurts.  And confuses the heck out of me.  It also means I can't trust actual allies, if I ever have any or think I might.  Because they themselves are possibly working to become something else, and may not even take me with them.  At least consider making it an accident for them, so they are plausibly working towards their assigned wincon and it just happens because they played well and achieved some goal and boom, it was that?  That makes their role change 'not on them' which can matter a lot.

In order:

<1> Yeah, that's a valid mechanic.

<2> No, a player can only have one alignment at a time.

<3> That sort of self-converting role from Town to anti-Town isn't something I'd use normally, or even uncommonly, it's just that it was the truest way for me to implement the theme Tric submitted, as far as I could tell. The role felt true to Tric, true to the role name, and true to the theme, which made that self-conversion feel more alright than it normally would. It's not a mechanic I would use without a really good reason to.

[Maximum Spin]

But for your reference here is the Total List Of Alignments. I will not include any alignments outside of these, and the win conditions will always be as stated.

Spoiler: Alignments (click to show/hide)

(Always Appears) The Town must eliminate every anti-Town player and have at least one living Town player to win. Anti-Town players are any players that have win conditions directly opposed to the Town. A Mafia player would be anti-Town, but a Survivor would not be.

(Will Probably Appear) The Mafia must eliminate enough players such that the number of living Mafia players equal or outnumber the other living players, and furthermore at least one Mafia player must still be alive. This win condition will only trigger if there are no remaining ways to eliminate the Mafia - so a Town double voter or vigilante killer could obstruct it. The Mafia will always possess a totally private scumchat which any living Mafia may communicate freely in, as well as a factional Mafiakill. In a game with a secondary scumteam, the Mafiakill may kill in a less direct manner, otherwise it will be a straightforwards kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The other scumteam may take up any villainous-sounding factional name. They share the same rules and win condition as the Mafia - and yes, they will need to fight the Mafia in order to achieve their win condition, and vice versa, because it turns out this town isn't big enough for two groups of murderers.

All alignments below this line belong to the Third Parties category.

(Common) The Mafia-Ally simply wins when the Mafia players do, without actively being on their team (and thus gaining none of their special privileges).
--(Rare) The Other-Ally could be allied to any of the alignments present. While not being of that alignment, they will win when a player that possesses that alignment wins.

(Uncommon) The Survivor must be alive at the end of a certain Day number, including surviving the execution that Day, in order to win. Depending on game size this number will probably be 3, 4, or 5. If the game ends before that number they will also lose.
--(Rare) The Joint-Survivor exists as a team of two. They have the win condition of the Survivor, but modified - at least one of them must be alive at the selected time.

Any type of Survivor that wins immediately exits the game.

(Uncommon) The Serial Killer wins when every player that is not themselves has been eliminated. If every player including themselves is dead, they will still win. They typically have some form of lethal ability to help accomplish this, though usually not so direct as the Mafia's kill.

(Very Rare, Requires Large Game) The Cult win when the number of living players of their alignment equal or outnumber all non-Cult remaining living players, and there is no longer any way to stop them through kills, vote manipulation, or otherwise. As a courtesy, if there is a Cult, I guarantee you that at the start of the game there will only ever be one Cult player. The Cult player will possess a means of transforming any player that is not scum or Joint-Survivor into another Cult player. This methodology will be limited.

(Rare) The Hunter is opposed to a specific alignment decided by me. As long as that alignment loses, the Hunter wins. If their opposed target is Town then they count as anti-Town, otherwise they do not. The Hunter need not be alive to accomplish this win condition.

Our mod says masons don't exist in this game.

Whatever you feel about Euchrejack, good for you.  Masons - shouldn't exist as an alignment per the mod.  What about his Pirates, or any other Pirates?

Masons aren't an alignment, they're a role power. Masons are implicitly town, although theoretically you could have survivor masons or SK masons, I guess.

You keep making these objections that are just... not right.

[Maximum Spin]

Uh-huh.  Goodie.  So, like a pirate-ally, who would remain in play if there was a chance that pirates could still win, since a sk-ally can still win even with all sk dead, maybe... with a mod probably intensely watching to remove them once the chance of everyone dead is gone, if it is before end of play....

Or, wanna ask the mod?  In PM or here?

Also, what's your goal in discussing this with us?

Sorry, I missed that this part was directed toward me.

No, because I don't care, because I can't imagine the relevance given that we don't know if SK-allies or SK-hunters exist, so whether or not one would be kicked out is academic, and we, as you also pointed out, don't know if there are still SKs left so that that condition hasn't been triggered anyway.

I was just speculating about it in my post and I didn't expect you to spin it into a whole thing. Although all of the way you're acting right now... again reminds me of that Armed Mafia just the other day.

[Imp]

Well, lookie at these two jumping in jumpies, Elephant Parade and Maximum Spin.  I wonder how their words their help their wincons.

Lenglon, when you have time and such, I sure do hope you answer my question.

No, because I don't care.

I was just speculating about it in my post

Ahh, keeping your post counts up, maybe draining energy from the thread or other people, just wasting time actively.  Nice, I wonder how that helps your wincon.  Oh, it probably does tell us some things about it, great.

[Maximum Spin]

Well, I was replying to Jim anyway, so it didn't actually increase my post count beyond what that would have.

I also really don't care about your bullshit right now except to say that you couldn't be any more obviously scum.

[Elephant Parade]

Well, lookie at these two jumping in jumpies, Elephant Parade and Maximum Spin.  I wonder how their words their help their wincons.

Are you implying that pointing out the same obvious error is a sign of collusion?