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[notquitethere]

Not-Quite-There, Not-Quite-There
Friendly neighborhood Not-Quite-There
Bogus tells
He's ignored
Analysis, his reward
Look out
Here comes the Not-Quite-There

Two interesting things so far. Jim's ability, and Web's role null claim. Web says it's OP but wiping out someone's role isn't necessarily more powerful than just killing them (though what happens to their wincon?)

Lenglon, we shouldn't give town ally claims a free pass— I've seen serial killers say that they're town aligned more than once! How does your list of questions compare to BHK's?

BHK, I'll certainly give a reads list on D2. How about you?

Tric, do you think your role is going to be decisive this game?

Elephant Parade did you know they used to parade elephants across the frozen ice of the river Thames during winter festivals a few hundred years ago?

[BlackHeartKabal]

So, BHK:  Would you vote Jim Groovester right now?

I don't see a reason why. Here's the possibilities -
If Jim is scum, it wouldn't make sense for them to possess an ability that actively punishes voting them up - which is, to say, if Jim were scum, they would not have that ability.

If Jim is town, it makes no sense to vote them up. If we wanted to kill them either way, we could just let scum do the job, which they will, due to their powerful ability. Because Jim, following the above, isn't scum, then the scum would undoubtedly kill them at earliest nightly convenience following this logic, because it would be unsafe for the scum team to do so by vote.

If Jim is a third party, then they, for the same reason that they likely aren't scum, are also unlikely to be an SK. Because they possess the ability that they do and, in this example, are not scum, the scum would either, again, eliminate Jim at soonest possible convenience, or try to keep them alive as long as possible to coerce them into supporting a scum victory later on. In the case of the former, the problem is solved without effort on our end. In the case of the latter, we can determine a target day or playercount to vote up Jim.

If Jim is specifically a survivor, the problem is self-solving after a certain day, as per the game rules.

There is one possibility in which I would support voting Jim up, but it's not possible on the first day.

I can see, I think, what you're going for regarding Jim and voting.
So I'll ask this question.

webadict: Should we prioritize keeping Jim alive?

Web says it's OP but wiping out someone's role isn't necessarily more powerful than just killing them (though what happens to their wincon?)

BHK, I'll certainly give a reads list on D2. How about you?

If role isn't distinct from alignment - which is, to say, that webadict can eliminate wincons, then there may be an ulterior motive to webadict's focus on Jim. But if they keep their alignment and wincons... I have to agree - I don't see how that's more powerful than just killing them.

To your reply to my question - certainly. No reason not to.

[webadict]

webadict: Should we prioritize keeping Jim alive?

[...]

If role isn't distinct from alignment - which is, to say, that webadict can eliminate wincons, then there may be an ulterior motive to webadict's focus on Jim. But if they keep their alignment and wincons... I have to agree - I don't see how that's more powerful than just killing them.

No.  Why would I prioritize someone who hasn't posted yet?  If anything, you should be asking me why I am clearly afraid to vote Jim.  Because I am.  There are two people in this game who would immediately shoot me with no hesitation, and Jim is one of them.  The other is TricMagic.  I cannot take the chance to vote Jim before I have unleashed my ramblings, especially since Jim has the potential to give us two executions Today.

As for the second portion, yes, the ability does seem to not be powerful at first, but then are you suggesting that you would want to be the target?  Certainly, I would think not.  This is a powerful ability specifically because it removes the role (not the wincon, silly geese), and the power differential between a player with powers and one without is disheartening.  One is liable to be incredibly disappointed if hit by this ability.  It is a partial removal from the game they signed up for.  It allows me to simply say that someone is no longer allowed to have fun.  That isn't something I feel should be in my hands, not because I wouldn't use it correctly, but because the correct usage of it is to kill enthusiasm in the target.

I think you underestimate the ability.

[BlackHeartKabal]

webadict: Should we prioritize keeping Jim alive?

[...]

If role isn't distinct from alignment - which is, to say, that webadict can eliminate wincons, then there may be an ulterior motive to webadict's focus on Jim. But if they keep their alignment and wincons... I have to agree - I don't see how that's more powerful than just killing them.

No.  Why would I prioritize someone who hasn't posted yet?  If anything, you should be asking me why I am clearly afraid to vote Jim.  Because I am.  There are two people in this game who would immediately shoot me with no hesitation, and Jim is one of them.  The other is TricMagic.  I cannot take the chance to vote Jim before I have unleashed my ramblings, especially since Jim has the potential to give us two executions Today.

As for the second portion, yes, the ability does seem to not be powerful at first, but then are you suggesting that you would want to be the target?  Certainly, I would think not.  This is a powerful ability specifically because it removes the role (not the wincon, silly geese), and the power differential between a player with powers and one without is disheartening.  One is liable to be incredibly disappointed if hit by this ability.  It is a partial removal from the game they signed up for.  It allows me to simply say that someone is no longer allowed to have fun.  That isn't something I feel should be in my hands, not because I wouldn't use it correctly, but because the correct usage of it is to kill enthusiasm in the target.

I think you underestimate the ability.

Regarding the second point first, I get it, and I'd much feel the same. I was thinking too much in mechanical terms. I like the sense of honor.

Beyond that, to Jim - I could tell that you didn't want to vote Jim - admittedly, not specifically why. I can't tell why you're confident that Jim and Tric would immediately off you. On that second point, is that suggesting that Tric would be suspicious if you died, or another point I'm not seeing?

I guess I can't see why anyone would vote Jim in the first place, and that's tripping me up. Purely pragmatically, regardless of alignment or goals, it doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do as per my last post, unless I overlooked a possibility.

[EuchreJack]

EuchreJack: under what circumstances would you use an ability that forced the mafia to kill you, while simultaneously making you impossible to watch or protect?

I would quite readily use that ability. A 18 player game is crazy.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

[Lenglon]

To your response to mine - why kill every night, if given the opportunity? Is that not disadvantageous?

A townie's kill action is automatically more accurate and informative than the lynch because they can auto-clear themselves and they decide who to shoot on their own. So, no, it is explicitly not disadvantageous. It is optimal to use all your bullets. The only reason to hold fire night one is that day 1 info sucks.

NQT: I dislike BHK's list due to its lack of bite but RVS questions are RVS. so shrugs.

BHK: your logic regarding Jim is entirely based on scum not being canidates for the revealed ability. I very strongly disagree with that. It is completely plausible for scum to have the ability revealed. If Jim is scum, SOMEONE is going to have to take that daykill to the face eventually. If Jim is town, we should enable Jim to use his daykill freely, for the same reason townies should use all their bullets. Why is it so important to you to protect yourself over proactively probing for scum? I've already voted Jim, though admittedly mostly as a gesture and to prove a point. If the time comes where we become certain that Jim is scum, would you refuse to vote him? Your current attitude seems to prioritize yourself over the Town.

Jack: So you'd use it whenever? without consideration? If you're simply prepared to die because someone has to absorb the mafiakill, then would you be prepared to vote Jim if you thought he was scum? What are your views regarding BHK and Jim?

[Crystalizedmire]

Crystalizedmire: What is your favorite alignment and why?

Town because that is the one I'm most familiar with
Also I have school so I'm gonna be not as active and I'm probably gonna be more active after 3:00 pm

[Knightwing64]

I am spooky and mysterious and my role is so good investigate me ooo

[Lenglon]

okay, Knightwing, you dared others to vote Jim. I already am voting Jim. Your turn. Vote Jim.

Why were you daring others to vote Jim?

Why are you not voting Jim yourself?

[Crystalizedmire]

BlackHeartKabal: Who do you think is the most likely to lurk this game? Do you think lurking will be an effective tactic?

I can't much speak on the availability of given players given my recent return - my answer to the first question would be pure speculation. My provisional answer would be "whoever hasn't posted by the 24th hour of this game." As for lurking being an effective tactic, yes, considering the playercount.

Crystalizedmire: Does the game size intimidate you, too?

maybe a little

[BlackHeartKabal]

BHK: your logic regarding Jim is entirely based on scum not being canidates for the revealed ability. I very strongly disagree with that. It is completely plausible for scum to have the ability revealed. If Jim is scum, SOMEONE is going to have to take that daykill to the face eventually. If Jim is town, we should enable Jim to use his daykill freely, for the same reason townies should use all their bullets. Why is it so important to you to protect yourself over proactively probing for scum? I've already voted Jim, though admittedly mostly as a gesture and to prove a point. If the time comes where we become certain that Jim is scum, would you refuse to vote him? Your current attitude seems to prioritize yourself over the Town.

I don't see it this way. It would be incredibly and fundamentally bizarre for scum in particular to have an ability that lets them kill someone for voting them. It is a very town-coded ability, like protection. If we were certain that Jim were scum, of course I'd vote for him - but his specific ability to daykill someone voting for him isn't a very scummy ability.

Likewise, I'm not talking about myself regarding voting Jim - I'm talking about collectively choosing to lynch. This is about whether Jim is even a suspect at all. If I were wrong and Jim had that ability as scum, I'd vote for him, but I'd feel dumb about arguing against it.

Besides that, what did you mean by letting him use his daykill freely? Someone has to be voting for him for him to use it.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

Huh. That's an offer.

[EuchreJack]

Jack: So you'd use it whenever? without consideration? If you're simply prepared to die because someone has to absorb the mafiakill, then would you be prepared to vote Jim if you thought he was scum? What are your views regarding BHK and Jim?

When I die, I leave behind a hat that is stronger than my ability. While it could help Mafia, a Town player would get more use out of it.

I'm not voting Jim. Feel free to take that bullet.

Jim's alignment is mostly null. That ability could be assigned to Town or Mafia. However, it leans Town, as it draws attention on Day 1, when most Mafia would just coast. However, Jim is a power wolf, so as Mafia, he might actually try to seize control of the game state on Day 1, despite that being crazy with this many players. Lean Town on Jim, since he's usually pretty good as Mafia. But maybe you should be shaking him down?

[EuchreJack]

BHK: your logic regarding Jim is entirely based on scum not being canidates for the revealed ability. I very strongly disagree with that. It is completely plausible for scum to have the ability revealed. If Jim is scum, SOMEONE is going to have to take that daykill to the face eventually. If Jim is town, we should enable Jim to use his daykill freely, for the same reason townies should use all their bullets. Why is it so important to you to protect yourself over proactively probing for scum? I've already voted Jim, though admittedly mostly as a gesture and to prove a point. If the time comes where we become certain that Jim is scum, would you refuse to vote him? Your current attitude seems to prioritize yourself over the Town.

I don't see it this way. It would be incredibly and fundamentally bizarre for scum in particular to have an ability that lets them kill someone for voting them. It is a very town-coded ability, like protection. If we were certain that Jim were scum, of course I'd vote for him - but his specific ability to daykill someone voting for him isn't a very scummy ability.

Likewise, I'm not talking about myself regarding voting Jim - I'm talking about collectively choosing to lynch. This is about whether Jim is even a suspect at all. If I were wrong and Jim had that ability as scum, I'd vote for him, but I'd feel dumb about arguing against it.

Besides that, what did you mean by letting him use his daykill freely? Someone has to be voting for him for him to use it.

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

Huh. That's an offer.

How many Mafia games have you played?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

No Lynch on Day 1 is dubious at best in most games, and incredibly stupid with this many players.

[webadict]

Also: Who wants to be a pirate?

I do... Ah, but I cannot!  Give it to Lenglon, she seems trustworthy.

I am spooky and mysterious and my role is so good investigate me ooo

Sure, I'll investigate you.  You just gotta say why!

@BHK:  I think you are right for your own reasons, though it is entirely likely that Jim could be Mafia with an ability like that.  Especially with something like my role removal ability that could remove the kill.  As for why Jim would kill me, I think it would be funny to him, and it's not like I would be easy to read.  TricMagic would simply be a danger to everyone, and not inherently more aggressive to me.  He is, how they say, the Hat Tyrant, and we are all in possession of his hats.

But, giving the Mafia an extra kill in an 18-player game?  I've seen doublekills in this games this size.  I've had Mafia players with their entire role revealed at the start of the game.  I think it is well within reason and power constraints.

@Crystal:  Okay.  Just let us know who you think is suspicious when you get back.

[Knightwing64]

okay, Knightwing, you dared others to vote Jim. I already am voting Jim. Your turn. Vote Jim.

Why were you daring others to vote Jim?

Why are you not voting Jim yourself?

I was trolling and don’t want to die this early. And Jim has a history of screwing me over. So thanks, but no thanks.

I am spooky and mysterious and my role is so good investigate me ooo

Sure, I'll investigate you.  You just gotta say why!

Why