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Author Topic: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 2 Revision)  (Read 13202 times)

Kashyyk

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2023, 07:36:23 am »

I'm tired can we just move on already and see if we get the smart rifle or the dead end?
I know I haven't spoken much, but I need to stress that Air Rifles are not a dead end. Just because they didn't work in our reality, that doesn't mean they can't be completely viable weapons in this medium Sci fi alternate reality. I know you don't want to let go of tried-and-true IRL successes, but I don't want to play Fantasy Football with IRL weapons.
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UristMcRiley

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2023, 08:30:12 am »

Y’all we’ve come up with a compromise solution to our dead lock that both sides can at least tolerate. Let’s stop this bickering and try to move on with the game no point in beating the same dead horse over and over again.
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Maxim_inc

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2023, 09:23:44 am »

I know I haven't spoken much, but I need to stress that Air Rifles are not a dead end. Just because they didn't work in our reality, that doesn't mean they can't be completely viable weapons in this medium Sci fi alternate reality. I know you don't want to let go of tried-and-true IRL successes, but I don't want to play Fantasy Football with IRL weapons.

It comes with 99% of the flaws of the steam rifle just in slightly different forms:

The ability to compress air for propulsion of shot is wildly inefficient when compared to gunpowder.

Its projection mechanism is vulnerable.

Its way of reloading adds too many moving parts a soldier needs to keep track of.

It doesn't scale well without needing to stretch reality even further than we already are.

The gun itself is a hand grenade waiting to go off considering it needs to hold pressures of around 60,000 PSI if it wants to contend with a normal rifle's ability to kill, even just 40,000 if we want to be in the pistol range. Thats just waiting for it to explode the moment a piece of shrapnel hits it and I'm pretty sure "Its made out of a super strong alloy" won't fly with MoP without adding even more expense to the rifle.

Not to mention its based on an artisinal weapon, and the fact that 200+ years since its creation IRL we still haven't figured out a way to compress air to the point to make such a weapon viable because its not, all that stretching reality does is force us to spend time and difficulty rolls adding more and more to each design to make them workable.

Also, no children- when you scale up an air rifle to fire pellets that can kill someone they very much are not silent anymore. Because the sound a gun makes comes from the gas pressure leaving the barrel, and once you pass 500 psi then you start to create sonic cracks like a rifle.

If that sounds like fun to people and not a technological dead end I don't know what to say. If you want cool and quirky mechs just fucking design one stop trying to handicap us into having shitty rifles because there's the idea that it will effect our tech. Its not like we're designing the super material that will define all our tech for the game, its a fucking rifle.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 09:40:28 am by Maxim_inc »
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TricMagic

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #153 on: October 14, 2023, 10:32:29 am »

Can always vote for the Coiling Bow. Or the Rocket Gun. All the logic in the world doesn't change a deadlock, you'd need a design that appeals to the majority of players. I would accept sniper rifle as our standard firearm. Toting around big guns sounds cool enough so long as you include a tripod. Go bigger dakka.
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Maxim_inc

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #154 on: October 14, 2023, 10:39:31 am »

Can always vote for the Coiling Bow. Or the Rocket Gun. All the logic in the world doesn't change a deadlock, you'd need a design that appeals to the majority of players. I would accept sniper rifle as our standard firearm. Toting around big guns sounds cool enough so long as you include a tripod. Go bigger dakka.

Tric you have less braincells than I thought
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TricMagic

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #155 on: October 14, 2023, 10:46:06 am »

Can always vote for the Coiling Bow. Or the Rocket Gun. All the logic in the world doesn't change a deadlock, you'd need a design that appeals to the majority of players. I would accept sniper rifle as our standard firearm. Toting around big guns sounds cool enough so long as you include a tripod. Go bigger dakka.

Tric you have less braincells than I thought
Now that's just rude for the sake of winning an argument. Deriding your opponent's intelligence is very low.

I'm crazier than you thought. That has nothing to do with how many brain cells I have. But given what I come up with, you should have already known that. Ugh.

Maxim, you have no imagination, and fewer cells than an isotope.
I'm making a point on how words hurt, I don't actually believe that. You just want your WW1 race. In a AR that's mid-sci-fi.

If you can't make an insult with creativity behind it, don't make one at all. Lowering yourself to this point just makes you look dumber than you actually are.


Sorry if this sounds rude, but that's not exactly conductive to polite conduct.
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Maxim_inc

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #156 on: October 14, 2023, 10:50:20 am »

You come in and crash every single conversation with the same "creativity" you bring everywhere. I don't have any effort left to worry about you or to give you enough attention to feed you. I've given you just as much effort as I think you're worth.
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TricMagic

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #157 on: October 14, 2023, 10:57:33 am »

So the takeaway from that is we're two people with irreconcilable viewpoints?

I gave my compromise condition I'd e willing to support. Even if it sounds stupid to you, I still gave it in the name of compromise. But there can be none if one of the parties involved doesn't wish to accept another point of view. If Airgun or rocket gun wins, you're just going to disappear?
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Kashyyk

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #158 on: October 14, 2023, 10:58:29 am »

These are all reasonable and logical arguments to be against an Air Rifle, and I suspect you won't like my response.

Quote from: Core Thread OP. Additional Rules. Item 3
Rule of Cool is King.
The bold face is also included. This means that the physics of the game world will overlook IRL flaws if the result conforms to the subjective definition of "cool".

Quote
The ability to compress air for propulsion of shot is wildly inefficient when compared to gunpowder.
IRL, yes. I agree. But mechanical legs are inefficient compared to wheels or treads, and Mecha are a staple of medium Sci fi. I believe rule of Cool will override this and allow Air Rifles a niche  much like how Tanks and Mecha can have their own complementary niches.

Quote
Its projection mechanism is vulnerable.
Quote
The gun itself is a hand grenade waiting to go off considering it needs to hold pressures of around 60,000 PSI if it wants to contend with a normal rifle's ability to kill, even just 40,000 if we want to be in the pistol range. Thats just waiting for it to explode the moment a piece of shrapnel hits it and I'm pretty sure "Its made out of a super strong alloy" won't fly with MoP without adding even more expense to the rifle.
I assume these points are related, so I'll address them together. Damage to the air propulsion could be catastrophic, yes, but I imagine the wielder of a firearm will have just as bad a time if a traditional magazine cooks off. Perhaps it is more likely, but Rule of Cool will mute it. Conversely, there is no build-up of carbon in the working parts of the weapon, so routine maintenance may in fact be easier.

Quote
Its way of reloading adds too many moving parts a soldier needs to keep track of.
You have two things to keep track of.  Magazines and a Gas Canisters. I realise our grunts will be eating the period-equivalent to crayons, but this cannot be beyond them.

Quote
It doesn't scale well without needing to stretch reality even further than we already are.
Not a fan of compressed air powered Artillery guns? That does stretch my disbelief a little too much, but I'm sure we could make something work.

Quote
Not to mention its based on an artisinal weapon, and the fact that 200+ years since its creation IRL we still haven't figured out a way to compress air to the point to make such a weapon viable because its not, all that stretching reality does is force us to spend time and difficulty rolls adding more and more to each design to make them workable.
Firearms used to be artisinal too. With some help from Rule of Cool, we can pull it off. After all, how much actual effort was put in over that 200 years? Probably less than we could of, because in this universe firearms performed better. If people genuinely believed air rifles were better, they would've put the effort in.

Quote
Also, no children- when you scale up an air rifle to fire pellets that can kill someone they very much are not silent anymore. Because the sound a gun makes comes from the gas pressure leaving the barrel, and once you pass 500 psi then you start to create sonic cracks like a rifle.
The silent weapon assertion is pure Rule of Cool. You are right that any expanding gas makes noise, regardless of whether it is caused by compressed air or an explosion. But having a weapon with an integral suppressor because of how it works is, imo, Cool.

I'm expecting the Air Rifle to have both strengths and weaknesses compared to a Firearm. A firarm may have higher effective range and stopping power, whilst an Air Rifle may be more easily supplied and allow for close-range engagements without revealing their position.

I think an Air Rifle is Cool. And I don't think you do. But in a game like this, we are constantly going to get proposed non-IRL appropriate weapons because Cool. We were gonna have this friction sooner or later. Where do you draw the line on "Cool but Impractical", when the setting let's us ignore the second part?

« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 11:07:58 am by Kashyyk »
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TricMagic

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #159 on: October 14, 2023, 11:06:45 am »

This breakdown does make me think the windgun design should include a suppressor of some sort, to vent the gas at the end of the barrel to achieve that soundless fire. Could be a revision thing depending on the roll?
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Maxim_inc

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #160 on: October 14, 2023, 04:40:16 pm »

After some discussion in Sensei's discord the other team apparently has less people and seem chill. I'd like to switch teams, this would alleviate the voting issue in our team and would remove the strife on direction that seems unresolvable in our team. I promise to not metagame of course and to be honest there really isn't much to metagame, though I hold the rights to the two rifles I previously posted.

@Paperman

Why didn't it ping him?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 04:54:28 pm by Maxim_inc »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #161 on: October 14, 2023, 05:01:21 pm »

Why didn't it ping him?

What, you think Bay 12 has all those fancy modern Spacebattles features? Nope, Bay 12 runs on 'simple machines', not Xenforo.
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

Maxim_inc

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #162 on: October 14, 2023, 05:10:08 pm »

Why didn't it ping him?

What, you think Bay 12 has all those fancy modern Spacebattles features? Nope, Bay 12 runs on 'simple machines', not Xenforo.

No its pinged him before.
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #163 on: October 14, 2023, 05:11:22 pm »

No its pinged him before.

My friend, his username is 'Man of Paper', not 'Paperman', so...

(I just typed the word '@Paperman' and bolded it, it wasn't actually a ping. Bay 12 doesn't have in-post pings.)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2023, 05:17:18 pm by FallacyofUrist »
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FoU has some twisted role ideas. Screw second-guessing this mechanical garbage spaghetti, I'm basing everything on reads and visible daytime behaviour.

Would you like to play a game of Mafia? The subforum is always open to new players.

Thanatos Russ

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Re: Greatest War Southern Star Thread - Spring 1912 (Prelim 1 Design)
« Reply #164 on: October 14, 2023, 05:28:30 pm »

I will change teams, its clear we have too much of a disconnect. I hope the game is fun for everyone.

Tfw i wanted to fight the NSA it was a funny idea.
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