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[sodafoutain]

Dorf me, Salmeuk! Preferably a smithing sort. Also, signing up for a turn.

[Salmeuk]

working on this today! is there anything I should really be careful with? I'm not super familiar with the pumpkin lore

[Maloy]

Dorf me, Salmeuk! Preferably a smithing sort. Also, signing up for a turn.

Do you wanna take my spot in the turn order?

working on this today! is there anything I should really be careful with? I'm not super familiar with the pumpkin lore

Nah! They're far more easy going than dwarves!


I know virtually nothing about editing raws, but I wonder if this is why the specters explode? Someone else fixed the bug in the past.
Their ectoplasm blood is both simultaneously freezing and boiling them. I think this is the problem as the dying specter I screenshotted was mostly frozen before it died

[IncompetentFortressMaker]

Their ectoplasm blood is both simultaneously freezing and boiling them. I think this is the problem as the dying specter I screenshotted was mostly frozen before it died

Just giving my two cents on the raws (despite not having a part in the fortress): I don't see anything in that image that's actually changing the ectoplasm temperature. The section you highlighted simply defines what the ectoplasm should be called when solid, liquid, or gaseous.
However, I do see a token that's causing them to be coated entirely in ectoplasm as a tissue, which means it can take damage. It's possible that that is being damaged and promptly causing "death" as a result.
The only tokens I know of that would be messing with the ectoplasm temperature would be either a) the [HOMEOTHERM] token that defines the creature's default temperature in °Urist (and can cause blood to boil in some circumstances, I had it happen to me once) or b) several material tokens that would affect its melting/boiling temperatures, a fixed temperature if one was added (materials do not usually have those, and I don't think any of the default material templates have fixed temperatures), and the speed at which it loses or gains heat.
As a matter of fact, is there a [HOMEOTHERM] token anywhere in its raws? The wiki informs me that the default value is none if one is not specified. I suspect that could mess with things.

[Maloy]

Their ectoplasm blood is both simultaneously freezing and boiling them. I think this is the problem as the dying specter I screenshotted was mostly frozen before it died

Just giving my two cents on the raws (despite not having a part in the fortress): I don't see anything in that image that's actually changing the ectoplasm temperature. The section you highlighted simply defines what the ectoplasm should be called when solid, liquid, or gaseous.
However, I do see a token that's causing them to be coated entirely in ectoplasm as a tissue, which means it can take damage. It's possible that that is being damaged and promptly causing "death" as a result.
The only tokens I know of that would be messing with the ectoplasm temperature would be either a) the [HOMEOTHERM] token that defines the creature's default temperature in °Urist (and can cause blood to boil in some circumstances, I had it happen to me once) or b) several material tokens that would affect its melting/boiling temperatures, a fixed temperature if one was added (materials do not usually have those, and I don't think any of the default material templates have fixed temperatures), and the speed at which it loses or gains heat.
As a matter of fact, is there a [HOMEOTHERM] token anywhere in its raws? The wiki informs me that the default value is none if one is not specified. I suspect that could mess with things.

Okay I'm looking through and I DON'T see that so could be it! Would you be able to take the save from my last post and see it? I don't even know how to put it in, but I could if someone explains.

Could be similarly inaccurate info, but I also see in the raws the Tissue-State is set as liquid. Would that actually be causing the specters to MELT? maybe?
I know you got forgotten beasts composed of liquid, but I didn't know if they're technically solids made of liquids in actuality

[IncompetentFortressMaker]

Okay I'm looking through and I DON'T see that so could be it! Would you be able to take the save from my last post and see it? I don't even know how to put it in, but I could if someone explains.

It's quite easy to put in. Look through your save, find <save>/raw/objects/<file the specters are in>, open the file, scroll down to anywhere in the specter creature definition (any lines after the [CREATURE:SPECTER] token and before any other [CREATURE:] tokens count), and somewhere in there type in [HOMEOTHERM:10067] (without formatting, of course, I just did that to make it noticeable) and see if that changes anything. Note that you have to alter the raws in the save for it to take effect on your current game, as DF's current raws are copied into the folder of a world when said world is made (and saved).
I used 10067°U because that's essentially the "default" homeotherm temperature vanilla uses for, say, dwarves. I figure that's a good place to start.
Fair warning: back up your save to somewhere else before you attempt to edit it. Editing creature raws mid-game can sometimes cause issues, and you don't want to lose this, right?

If adding a homeotherm temperature doesn't work, something else is causing spontaneous instant death. You're correct that the tissue state is set as liquid, which is definitely an anomaly as most vanilla tissues are not liquids (curiously enough, even something like iron man gas is not explicitly overridden to be in a gaseous state in the tissue definition itself, but something else could be doing stuff there). So, a second possibility may be removing the [TISSUE_MAT_STATE:LIQUID] tag from the ectoplasm tissue and seeing what happens - even if it winds up solid and then starts looking odd with regards to name etc., you can play around with the display names of the material to make it look better then (though you'd only really need to do that if it solved the instant death problem).

...I also just noticed that in your screenshot, the name of the file displayed in your text editor and the header of the file (that first line that has the file name with no file extension in it) don't match up. If the actual file's name is different from the header, you should probably correct that.

If all else fails, check the errorlog in your DF install directory and see if it flags anything about specters. Maybe there's a hint in there.

[Salmeuk]

I did not mess with any of the raws. good luck to anyone who tries..

Dorf me, Salmeuk! Preferably a smithing sort. Also, signing up for a turn.

sodafountain I failed to dwarf you properly. . I forgot until I was about to pass on the turn, and even then I managed to dwarf you as the doctor instead of the smith (of which we now have quite a few). So I petition Maloy, who is next in line, to re-dwarf you as one of these smiths.

anways here is the save. short journal follows.

****
dont forget you can click on these images to resize.

subterranean bedrooms because i was too lazy to build exclusively aboveground (trust me this saves us all a ton of headaches hehe)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

worth every penny GIANT PUMPKIN GIANT PUMPKIN GIANT PUMPKIN GIANT PUMPKIN GIANT PUMPKIN



working on the second floor



a forest retreat or something?



we later ate these piggies



a number of great pumpkins have joined our ranks, and begun the process of having little baby pumpkins. they are bloodthirsty.


these pumpkins were led into a new fenced grazing pen.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

like there was a bear and it totally tried to steal our brews and like holy hell man this bear came right up to us and nearly hit us with our claws man! like it was for sure gonna kill us bro like we were gonna die bro! and we had to stop everything and just run, like we had no choice man would you stop for a bear I dont think so man I dont think so



moat in progress 1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

moat in progress 2

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the moat... filled.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

a barony? hmm. I elected the Head Doctor, a brilliant character, however nothing has happened as of the end of my turn. curious.



our mayor, Dels, is also part of the gun fighter squad, who carry muskets and shoot copper balls at our enemies These currently consist of large numbers of deer and boars. Woe betide the boar who wanders into these forests.



a ratling visitor meditates on chaos in a shrine



i dwarfed myself as the manager...



I spent a little over a year here. there are three squads training 2/3rds of each year.. two melee and one musket. not much armor but hey they all have weapons and a fair amount of skill. there are now like 70 pumpkins so I dunno, will we be attacked?

the only extant work orders are for brewing. all the mason shops connect to their respective stone. and there is quite a bit of stocked gold / charcoal and other metals. basically, i reasoned that if we traded some underground bedroom use for a year or two, we could prep our fortress with the needed labor to actually build aboveground with some kind of efficiency beyond, you know, one building a season or whatever. when you have 30+ haulers / builders on hand (which is now true) that makes everything fairly painless.

[Maloy]

Giant Pumpkins and a moat? Fantastic!

Also underground building is cool and we might consider doing more like I said I'm really curious what the mod adds to caverns.
I think you got another day to keep playing if you want? I can pick it up either way!


Also here is my journey of bug fixing - documenting because if we do manage to fix it and someone else in the future is searching for how to fix the specters this might show up for them

What specifically is happening to the ghosts is that they are freezing and once frozen die and crumble to a pile of ectoplasmic goo


So, I deleted the Tissue Material state liquid text from the pic of the raws seen earlier
Fixed it they aren't freezing to death anymore!

New problem though:



So why are they melting? I put the Homeotherm text in the exact same spot in the scripting that you can find it with humans in their file
and it doesn't seem to be affecting their melting at all
Still workshopping it, but I'm also about to be busy for a bit before I can look at it so thought I'd submit my findings for thoughts

[Salmeuk]

AWESOME these spectres are certainly curious. and if we get them working they might add some serious vibes to the world. right now, they add some serious horror, since collapsing piles of ectoplasmic goop slowly rolling down the forested hills are only slightly disturbing

[Maloy]

They are officially fixed! ITS ALIVE...well kind of...they are ghosts after all

They're officially fixed and anyone who picks up the save will have fixed specters now so this is my last post on the issue and it'll just be halloween autumn fun from here on lol


Here is the step by step. Shout out to Raw Explorer by Brad_Uffner which I used to find a comprehensive list of raws and how they are written to find the correct code I wanted to use.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103360.msg3056848#msg3056848

The specters have TWO deadly problems. The most immediate one first: They freeze to death. Once dead they crumble into a pile of ectoplasmic goo. That's right they aren't exploding!

Let's go to your raws -> Objects -> creature_civilized_specter
Now you get a big screen that is basically the guts of the entire specter species

Look here


Our spooky friends are made of liquid and this liquid very quickly freezes killing them in the way mentioned

Delete It


Now the specters don't freeze! Hooray! Now for the second deadly problem! They are melting alive!!

This one was more tricky... Basically unlike any other df race I am familiar with these guys have an actual measurable melting point, but the melting point is zero so being alive causes them to die again horribly.

Add this text in the same place I did



Be sure to hit save.
Now we have happy ghost boys and girls haunting our libraries and bars

the mod does try to do this originally, but something goes wrong(maybe it got typed in wrong idk) and the error log lets us know that it was supposed to have this



This was a wonderful intro for me in playing with raws and I learned a lot! I might even do my own stuff in the future just because I was having such a good time learning about all this


Fortress updates to come!

[sodafoutain]

Oh, we have our own colony of great pumpkins, ready to visit pumpkin patches the world over and cause the unabashed passing-out of young dwarves. Speaking of, does the mod add the ability to grow pumpkins? I might try (and very much fail) to add them to the raws if not. I'll try to make underground exploration a priority, and scrape together a military as well. No use for iron better than weaponry, unless you're making it into steel.

[Maloy]

Oh yes we can! and squash the lesser cousin of the pumpkin!

The specters really like our town now that they don't die terribly by setting foot in our territory!


Our mansion ballroom is basically just for specter balls only as our pumpkins are far too busy with good honest labor. Also I attempted to make a giant pumpkin head and that is it's shadow you are seeing!



So they weren't conquered by us lol.
The bogey empire is winning the war against the strangelings by a landslide. Even though the bogeys actively attack and conquer our own peoples towns we aren't at war and are economically linked

In return for our great success for living in the right place at the right time we were elevated to a county!


Sodafountain is quite pleased!

Also I'm working on a forge dedicated to him

I also bought us regular sized animal pumpkins! I feel like they are our species equivalent of dogs versus the big ones being horses? Whatever we got a crew of them now!


Now our pumpkins will feast on pumpkins


Bogeys are like strangelings if strangelings were more awful in every way and so with the strangeling forests being conquered we decided we needed to liberate some of the literature from the forests before the bogeys got to it and decided to eat it or wear it as a hat



speaking of bogeys....



They're here for the kids! Thankfully most everyone spends their downtime underground or in the mansion still! How did they get across our moat?!

Ahhh the beautiful yet disturbing image of a carved smiling pumpkin man covered in blood and cutting another creature to pieces...


So, that's how they crossed...

Well, we taught them a lesson they won't forget, but we can be assured that they won't forgive either.


Talking about the world situation for a second


The bogeys surround us completely as they conquer the strangeling forests, although one strangeling civilization we are friends with us also doing the same and so building close to us.
The bogeys have taken three of our villages despite being at peace and have abducted many pumpkin children!
Also our capital dealt with a massacre from the strangelings taking its population from 500 to 50.
Some of the survivors built a village a day's walk from us and rely on us economically.

The great pumpkin spirit, Harr Almor, has been kind to us, but our people across the world seem to be suffering and reduced to pumpkin pies! Perhaps we should be thankful for our peace or perhaps we should do more? Hard for a hard working pumpkin to decide on such things!



Got one more day and I'll finish up as much as I can!

[Salmeuk]

so... the bogey apocalypse approaches...

The specters really like our town now that they don't die terribly by setting foot in our territory!

yay ghost friends! I wonder if specters can get drunk

loving this world perspective as you write it. it is a bit worrying how many friendly settlements are falling

Our moat is pretty useless in the winter. I can't believe the fool who designed it.. *looks around nervously*

perhaps we should place great pumpkins around as guards.

edit: here is a recording of my turn, if you would like to see some gameplay or more sections of the fortress! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3A7TaLaTY

[callisto8413]

Can Specters join the settlement?  Do they ask to become a resident?  I wonder how well they would do in the military....

[Maloy]

Didn't get too much further because real life got busy, but here's a summary and a save
https://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=16878
Zultan is doing great! Turns out he has 5 kids who are all doing great and some of them have children of their own! Quite happy although recently you were quite glum after someone had an argument with you. You also miss wandering the forests, which I can't blame you for, because they are gorgeous with fruit and nuts aplenty!

Rain has hardened you into a man impervious to stress. May the bogeys tremble at your pumpkin fields!


Delphonso is still single, but has many friends. He's been feeling a deep empathy by being a shoulder to cry on for a friend and also listening to his thoughts on the world. You also became an anarchist after watching a specter freeze and explode into goo.


Sodafountain is flying up the noble hierarchy of the society! Loving it too! You have TEN CHILDREN! WOW! You also are one of the two pumpkin heads who killed are bogey spies! You're a terrifying sight with that axe and carved pumpkin smile!


Salmeuk the architectures and buildings of the town are a deep joy for you it seems. Your daily jaunts to and from fields and other labors give you wonderful opportunities to enjoy the scenery. Due to an unnamed trauma you suffered last year you have resolved that you would have peace at any cost. You have one child and are happily married




Here was my start of the forge, but ran out of time. I wanted to make it big, epic and spooky. Feel free to doctor it up Soda!

so... the bogey apocalypse approaches...

The specters really like our town now that they don't die terribly by setting foot in our territory!

yay ghost friends! I wonder if specters can get drunk

loving this world perspective as you write it. it is a bit worrying how many friendly settlements are falling

Our moat is pretty useless in the winter. I can't believe the fool who designed it.. *looks around nervously*

perhaps we should place great pumpkins around as guards.

edit: here is a recording of my turn, if you would like to see some gameplay or more sections of the fortress! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l3A7TaLaTY

Raws state that they don't need food or drink, but crave alcohol so a tavern keeper is needed to keep them happy I think!
Great pumpkin guards sounds like a great idea!

Also cool that video will be perfect for me I like to have something passively playing I can switch to and from!

Can Specters join the settlement?  Do they ask to become a resident?  I wonder how well they would do in the military....

Yes, we got like 7 I accepted! I really wonder how well they fight! In most world gens they wipe out all bogeys in a century.


Have fun Sodafountain!