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Author Topic: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civ Building Game [Explore IV]  (Read 11153 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2023, 12:08:14 pm »

Offerings for the Dead
This seems too simple a solve. Like, it might placate the murderghosts, but it probably won't pacify them- it'd be a temporary fix that we'd have to continually re-apply (food upkeep, probably), and even then we'd have to be careful around them. I'd rather we either fix the problem at the root- making it so that the ghosts are able to bugger off once they're bored-, or create a way of permanently pacifying them.

Quote
As much as I like my above proposal, I think it is safer to contact the nearby tribe by giving them one haircap moss and hopefully establishing a friendly relationship.
The only thing we know about the other tribe is that they aggressively drove us away, pursuing us until we entered an area that they thought we would never be able to survive in. I don't think approaching them in a submissive stance is likely to work out the way you want. If we want to mend our relationship, we need to come at them from a position of at least equal strength, otherwise they'll probably just endeavour to finish what they started. After all, if they really want the moss, they can just take it once we're dead.

Ghastly Domination
Sending ghosts just to scout areas results in murderghosts that want to kill us. Sending ghosts out with the express purpose of attacking people seems like it would at best result in murderghosts who are as bad as scout-murderghosts, attacking anyone who gets close to them. At medium, they'll attack us if we enter the tile, since their eternal purpose is murder. At worst, they would lump us in with the hostile tribe and attack and 'subjugate' us.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily opposed to siccing murderghosts on our enemies- but I think ensuring they won't murder us is an absolute prerequisite.

Spirit Wardens
This would probably help with the murderghosts. Which I think would be a good direction to go in, since once pacified, we could then use them as Maximum Spin suggests (in the Experimentation phase).

Quote from: vptebox
1x haircap moss for other tribe(1): Crystalizedmire
Spirit Wardens: (1) NUKE9.13
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2023, 12:23:31 pm »

I think we should deal with these cave bears first.  No need to contact other tribes right now...

Shooting Stones (requires access to: Textiles and Stone)

The people of the tribe were deathly afraid of the cave bears.

One day, someone was playing with a length of cord (a small rope) and found that if they wrapped it just right around a stone (and provided the stone wasn't too big or too small), they could swing it around.  They further found that, if they let go of one end of the cord while swinging the stone around and kept hold of the other end, they could cause the stone to shoot forth with deadly speed.  Fast enough (and hard enough) to shatter the skull of a cave bear.  They also found that, with practice, they could control where the stone hit.

No more would the tribe need to cower in the shadow of the cave bears!



Quote from: vptebox
1x haircap moss for other tribe(1): Crystalizedmire
Offerings for the Dead(0):
Ghastly Domination(0):
Spirit Wardens(1): NUKE9.13
Shooting Stones(1): A_Curious_Cat
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The Canadian kitten

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2023, 12:26:16 pm »

Since now that we actually encountered a potentially hostile tribe
We can just send soul scouts to terrorize them and use the spirit wardens to clean the area once we force them off.

Quote from: votebox
1x haircap moss for other tribe(1): Crystalizedmire
Offerings for the Dead(0):
Ghastly Domination(0):
Spirit Wardens(2): NUKE9.13, TCK
Shooting Stones(1): A_Curious_Cat
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2023, 01:08:18 pm »

I feel Nuke's reasoning is spot on again - a method of pacifying ghosts seems like the best action as it achieves multiple objectives at once.

* no risk of the ghost on the surface potentially coming for us later, triggered by some reason
* able to use the passage on M16 again if we want to
* able to use soul scouts without risk
* able to weaponize soul scouts without it backfiring

Too good to not vote for. Props to Curious_cat for inventing the bola - interestingly, that was one of the early winning proposals in the previous game but you came up with it independently.

TCK, request: before I vote could you please clean up this bit? It's a little unclear to me now.
[snip]The Spirit Warden absorb these Soul Scouts and forces them into the Whispering Lake held within their bodies.
Often adding a bit of the soul, and memories into their soul but still being the domanit soul within the body.[/snip]
Do they force them back into their own bodies, or back into the lake? Does the spirit warden add a bit of his own soul, do they steal a portion of the absorbed soul?
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The Canadian kitten

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #154 on: September 25, 2023, 01:40:30 pm »

TCK, request: before I vote could you please clean up this bit? It's a little unclear to me now.
[snip]The Spirit Warden absorb these Soul Scouts and forces them into the Whispering Lake held within their bodies.
Often adding a bit of the soul, and memories into their soul but still being the domanit soul within the body.[/snip]
Do they force them back into their own bodies, or back into the lake? Does the spirit warden add a bit of his own soul, do they steal a portion of the absorbed soul?

Sorry not being clear since writing bad

The Spirit Wardens would be absorbing the soul scouts into the whispering lake
They steal a portion of the soul of the scouts, making them have the memories and experiences of the scouts as well

The whispering lake within the body, and the Warden's soul are two different entities, the lake holds the soul scout souls, which removes the lethal spirits from play. The Spirit warden's soul steals the part of the soul scout's soul, and acts as a tribal "shaman" where we can get wisdom, and information from the scouts, and additional wisdom when they're dead since their souls will be stronger after absorbing other souls.

I will try to clarify as needed when I have additional time.
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #155 on: September 25, 2023, 01:48:34 pm »

Quote from: votebox
1x haircap moss for other tribe(1): Crystalizedmire
Offerings for the Dead(0):
Ghastly Domination(0):
Spirit Wardens(3): NUKE9.13, TCK, Quarque
Shooting Stones(1): A_Curious_Cat
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2023, 04:23:40 am »

The thing for me, here, is that we're told that this action will be the defining turning point of the Age. So I'd really like to do something meaningful from a narrative perspective. Mopping up after our previous mess just isn't the posture I want to take. And consider, anyway, if we make murder-ghosts on purpose and roll well, they'll be murder-ghosts on our side, who can probably murder the other ghost too. Of course if we roll badly things will go badly, but that's how luck works and not really something I see as a compelling argument, especially for cowardice. Who dares wins.

I also consider the potential cultural impact of making ghost-hoover people as our age-defining moment, uh, concerning.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2023, 05:05:04 am »

Of course if we roll badly things will go badly, but that's how luck works and not really something I see as a compelling argument
You're quite right, we shouldn't make that sort of argument. To say we should or shouldn't do something just because we might get a certain roll would be-
Quote
And consider, anyway, if we make murder-ghosts on purpose and roll well, they'll be murder-ghosts on our side
...huh.

But seriously, if your plan to avoid the obvious, glaring issue with your proposal is "we might roll really well and have the GM just remove the existing downside", I'm not compelled. If you want the downside removed, include that in the proposal. Because while I can't speak for MoP, if I give people a bug and they just ignore it with a follow-up action, I wouldn't override their apparent wishes by removing it.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2023, 05:17:29 am »

Of course if we roll badly things will go badly, but that's how luck works and not really something I see as a compelling argument
You're quite right, we shouldn't make that sort of argument. To say we should or shouldn't do something just because we might get a certain roll would be-
Quote
And consider, anyway, if we make murder-ghosts on purpose and roll well, they'll be murder-ghosts on our side
...huh.
That's, like, the opposite of what I meant. I'm specifically saying that we should make decisions based on what will happen if we succeed, not what will happen if we fail, because failure is always a presumed possibility for anything (and who dares wins). There's no inconsistency there.

Anyway, I think I see this situation fundamentally differently. The way I see it, the murder-ghosts are a downside of Soul-Scouts due to rolling badly, not a downside of using ghosts generally. Of course I assume something similar or worse would happen if we roll badly on further ghost actions. I assume something similar or worse would happen if we roll badly on Spirit Wardens, like insane shamans full of murder-ghosts. But at the same time, narratively, the murder-ghosts seem to happen because the spirits are going crazy from being denied rest in favor of performing an incredibly menial task without end. I am pretty sure you would probably snap and kill someone if you had to do nothing but count rocks for the foreseeable future, too. So I don't think that we should assume it will just automatically happen if we send ghosts to perform a clearly defined task that is not intrinsically boring and has a definite ending at which point they can go home. It didn't even occur to me to say "these ghosts don't go crazy" because there is zero reason why they would. Again, obviously, if we roll badly, they might go crazy for new reasons, that's always a risk we take, but it seems nuts to just assume that the same problem applies to a completely different scenario, when it only existed in the past scenario because of bad luck anyway.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2023, 06:01:28 am »

Anyway, I think I see this situation fundamentally differently. The way I see it, the murder-ghosts are a downside of Soul-Scouts due to rolling badly, not a downside of using ghosts generally.
Right, yes. Under that assumption, what you're saying makes sense. I understand your viewpoint, even if I disagree.
As I read it, something about the way we've created permaghosts compels them to follow their task to the letter. While the problem arose as the result of us rolling poorly, it is (for now) ingrained into our method of ghost-creation. Yes, "subjugate that tribe" isn't as endless or boring a task as "catalogue everything in that area", but if we could just change the wording of our requests to the soon-to-be-ghosts to spare them an eternity of compulsion, then we would only have the first scoutghost to worry about, as all future ones could trivially be given an escape clause. As I said initially, the best case scenario (where we roll a 9 or 10) that I picture still has the ghosts compelled to stick around forever, since that is a fundamental flaw with how we create ghosts.
As support for my viewpoint, I offer the fact that MoP makes it clear at every available opportunity that our actions have lasting consequences. Which seems to me to suggest that a followup action's results will not be based solely on the new dice roll, but also be significantly based on the prior action's results.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2023, 06:07:55 am »

if we could just change the wording of our requests to the soon-to-be-ghosts to spare them an eternity of compulsion, then we would only have the first scoutghost to worry about, as all future ones could trivially be given an escape clause.
See, my interpretation is that we could absolutely do that, but we'd need to use a proposal to think of it (which would be a bit of a waste of a proposal to me, since it doesn't accomplish anything NEW). And of course it could end up going even worse.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand II]
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2023, 08:50:18 pm »

Quote from: votebox
1x haircap moss for other tribe(1): Crystalizedmire
Offerings for the Dead(0):
Ghastly Domination(0):
Spirit Wardens(4): NUKE9.13, TCK, Quarque, Powder Miner
Shooting Stones(1): A_Curious_Cat
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Man of Paper

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Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Exploit II]
« Reply #162 on: October 03, 2023, 11:06:12 pm »

Expansion II: The Ties That Bind (Roll: 10) (The Canadian Kitten +1I)
Musical Accompaniment, If You're Into That

The Whispering Lake has been a curiosity that has drawn the attention of your tribe for some time now, and even with the "discovery" of the Attuned it largely remained a mysterious point of interest. Without much regular interaction with the Lake, it took the tribe until just now to test the waters in a most literal sense.

A small group of Attuned waded into the lake to fully immerse themselves in the souls of the dead in an attempt to finally reach out and make some sort of real connection. Most were overwhelmed by the sheer volume of voices speaking directly into their minds and either abandoned the lake or fell beneath the surface. Only one Attuned was able to endure the Whispering Lake, staving off madness and enduring the pains of hunger and thirst. After a few days, this Lake-Attuned found themself no longer able to differentiate between the Lake and themselves, filtering through the voices of the dead in order to find and speak to specific spirits passing by. They learned much about the Mourning Dew in their conversations with the dead (although no individual knew much on their own), and discovered that each of these spirits had lived a relatively normal life, doing a little bit to help others here and there, providing for their tribes, and not going out of their way to cause undue harm. As a result of their fairly uneventful lifestyles, they had a slow but steady and reliable path to The Whispering Lake and then the afterlife beyond. The savage spirit scouring the surface was becoming increasingly frustrated due to a degradation of the memory of it's order over time, resulting in an endless loop of task repetition delaying their peaceful path to providence. The Lake-Attuned was able to reach out to this accursed surface spirit from their permanent spot standing at the middle of the lake chest-deep in water and called them back.

The Lake-Attuned found that they could also reach out to their Attuned tribemates, acting as a relay between the living and the dead and passing messages back and forth across long distances. This meant the tribe was able to give clear instructions to the dead that wished to provide aid (and not just recently deceased Attuned) and give them something to do while they waited for their turn to pass on without forcing them to work "overtime". If this link were to ever be broken, any spirits working alongside the tribe would likely lose direction and revert back to a more aggressively agitated state.

As time passed, the Lake-Attuned found themself no longer wanting for food or drink, their bodies seemingly provided for in all manners by their attunement to the Lake, but they still aged. Having already been fairly old at the time of their lake attunement, it was only a few years before an Attuned heard the first "call". Being intimately entwined with death, the Lake-Attuned could feel their own spirit trying to break its mortal bindings and reached out to the Attuned spirit they felt most closely resonated with the spiritual energies of the Whispering Lake - one who had lived a life that would guarantee their passage through The Whispering Lake. As the tribe had begun to see the Lake-Attuned as a sort of spiritual leader (in a few meanings of the title), the Attuned had little hesitation in answering this unique call. The Attuned waded into the middle of the lake unbothered by the spirits congregating in the Mourning Dew, where they met a wrinkled, hunched, withered, but smiling Lake-Attuned. They both held out their hands and grasped one another for a few moments until the Lake-Attuned seeming dissolved into the lake. Their knowledge melded together within the new Lake-Attuned as the old spirit passed all of it's experiences onto the new spirit, leaving the tribe with a seamless transition in the position.


NEW DISCOVERIES
Lake-Attuned: An Attuned who has more specifically attuned to The Whispering Lake. Lake-Attuned allow the tribe to make requests of and utilize the spirits of the dead passing through the Lake without much complication. Only one Lake-Attuned exists at a time, acting as both messenger and spirit guide until they die of old age. Lake-Attuned choose which Attuned will inherit the position based on how closely their lifestyle aligns with The Whispering Lake's denizens - generally the more unremarkable the lifestyle, the better the fit. The tribe sees the Lake-Attuned as a sort of absentee leader who speaks to them through the Attuned. Requires access to The Whispering Lake.

Lake Spirits: Spirits from The Whispering Lake are fairly passive as they likely were in life, and eagerly await their turn to pass into the afterlife (whatever that may be). Lake Spirits are relatively simple, and work best on simple or fairly easy tasks (such as exploration). Their passivity can erode rapidly if overworked, especially without a Lake-Attuned in the tribe. There is no direct cost for Lake Spirits, as any upkeep is reflected in the discoveries that utilize them.

MODIFIED DISCOVERIES
-Soul-Scouts: Spirits from the Whispering Lake who have answered the tribe's call to aid in exploration. They provide very accurate data to the tribe through the Lake-Attuned. Soul-Scouts allow Exploration of a tile neighboring a previously Explored tile independent of any other Exploration action, and have a chance to discover additional resources. While Lake-Attuned is properly funded, Soul-Scouts have no downside. However, if access to The Whispering Lake is lost, Soul-Scouts will provide areas they Explore with the (Lethal Spirits) modifier and hamper any actions in the area unless Lake-Attuned is properly refunded or the spirits are otherwise dealt with. Requires 1 Mourning Dew Upkeep.

TERRITORY MODIFIED
16-M loses (Lethal Spirits [Surface]).
Surface Granite (Stone x2) is no longer blocked.


The Lake-Attuned gave the tribe a sort of leadership figurehead to begin rallying behind, but the day-to-day operations of the tribe was largely beyond their scope. Instead, three families of the tribe were recognized as having a high level of influence on their tribemates. With the tribe clearly heading into a New Age, the strong leadership of these families has seen their opinions and goals weighed much more heavily than the average tribal family.

Maximum Spin, Powder Miner, and Crystalizedmire become Major Families.

There was a little negativity from a family that felt like it was being ignored, but it was unlikely that it would bloom into a larger issue for the tribe. At least for now.


With the advent of the Lake-Attuned, the tribe has grown much more attentive to the Mourning Dew that they once feared out of ignorance moreso than anything else. The Attuned within the tribe have grown more confident in their abilities to push the boundaries and pierce the veil between the worlds of the living and the dead - although your tribe has come to understand that those worlds are one and the same. The tribe has entered The Age of Attunement, the new Major Families receive 1 Prestige and all Influence has been reset.

During The Age of Attunement, any proposals utilizing Mourning Dew are guaranteed to have a larger impact than actions based around the more mundane resources. As a result, any proposals that do not use or interact in some way with Mourning Dew will have results rerolled on a 1, 2, 8, 9, or 10, while proposals that do use Mourning Dew will be rerolled until the result lands on 1, 2, 8, 9, or 10. This is to reflect the weight of the impact Mourning Dew is having and will continue to have on the tribe.


----


It is now the Exploitation Phase. Remember that you can choose a resource to begin exploiting in a neighboring area, or propose a development that would facilitate or build upon your ability to gather, identify, or otherwise interact with the resources of the world around you. Your tribe also remains nameless until there's a clear decision on what to name them! Since it is your first turn in a new zone as nomadic tribals, you do not need to choose a resource to exhaust.

READ THIS
With the ascension of the first Major Families, the way you vote is now changing to reflect the instructions in the original post. Major Families (Maximum Spin, Powder Miner, and Crystalizedmire) will vote in a separate votebox from the rest of the peasantry players, where their vote counts in its entirety. Minor Families (everyone else) vote in their own box, adding a single vote (with tie-breaking power) in the Major Votebox to whichever proposal the majority of the Minor Families vote for. You don't need to account for the Minor Vote in the Major Votebox as I'll obviously be checking both before working on results, but you can if you feel like it. The Tribe Name Vote will still account for everyone equally.

Spoiler: The Age of Attunement (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Available Resources (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Map (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Resources By Region (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Families (click to show/hide)
TURNTURNTURN
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Powder Miner

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I think we need to work towards settling now, as the centrality of the Whispering Lake inherently chains us around one tile. With that said, I feel there is one resource we very much need to exploit whether we continue nomadically or settle, which is stone - if we don't have it, we don't have tools. If we stumble into a tile without stone while nomadic, we may be fucked. If we settle, I think it makes natural sense to settle around the Whispering Lake, and that is a tile without stone.

Quote from: Major Box
Semi-Permanently Exploit Granite Stalactites at 16-M: (1) Powder Miner
Quote from: Minor Box
Semi-Permanently Exploit Granite Stalactites at 16-M: (0)
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Quarque

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Continued access to mourning dew is likely going to be even more important than continued access to stone in the near future. We're in the age of attunement now, let's make sure we have plenty of dew to work with even if we move.

Quote from: Major Box
Semi-Permanently Exploit Granite Stalactites at 16-M: (1) Powder Miner
Semi-permanently exploit Mourning Dew from the Whispering Lake (17-M): (0)
Quote from: Minor Box
Semi-Permanently Exploit Granite Stalactites at 16-M: (0)
Semi-permanently exploit Mourning Dew from the Whispering Lake (17-M): (1) Quarque
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 12:00:02 am by Quarque »
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