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Author Topic: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civ Building Game [Explore IV]  (Read 11126 times)

NUKE9.13

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2023, 01:55:30 am »

We shall build our great fire at the centre of our camp
Question: with what fuel? As far as I can tell, our only fuel source is currently dried lichen; plentiful, but quick to burn up. Even in small torches, it doesn't last long- in a large, blazing camp fire, it will probably be gone in seconds. We'd need to stockpile entire caverns full of dried lichen, and have people shovelling it into the fire by the armload constantly. Even just smaller cooking fires are probably pushing the limits of practicality.
I definitely agree with the motive behind the proposal. However, I would expect it to come with a fuel upkeep, which we have no way of paying.
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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2023, 02:00:02 am »

We shall build our great fire at the centre of our camp
Question: with what fuel? As far as I can tell, our only fuel source is currently dried lichen; plentiful, but quick to burn up. Even in small torches, it doesn't last long- in a large, blazing camp fire, it will probably be gone in seconds. We'd need to stockpile entire caverns full of dried lichen, and have people shovelling it into the fire by the armload constantly. Even just smaller cooking fires are probably pushing the limits of practicality.
I definitely agree with the motive behind the proposal. However, I would expect it to come with a fuel upkeep, which we have no way of paying.
Well, that's actually my next two planned proposals. :P
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2023, 03:20:36 am »

Ouch, NUKE9.13 is absolutely right. As much as I like the campfire idea I just don't see how it is possible at this moment.

Rereading the nomad rules, even the improved housing is going to be somewhat difficult, because if we move M-17 for example, we immediately lose our source of textile.

Rereading the rules for nomadic lifestyle:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What this really boils down to is that generic resources like food are not a problem, but any sort of more specialized resource is hard to maintain constant access to. If a resource is limited to one particular tile, the exhaustion mechanic means that you have to move away from the tile after a few turns.

That makes me think that the underground lends itself very poorly to nomad play. In a place with abundant resources everywhere, you can live off the land just find. But in our caves, even basic items like textile are bound to be harder to find.

In addition, I feel that reinforcing our homes with granite would be much safer in this environment than tents made out of woven lichen. If there is one thing we have in abundance here, it is stone.

Quote from: Settle down
As our tribe gradually get accustomed to their subterranean environment, they transform it into their permanent dwelling. This transition marks a departure from their nomadic existence as they embrace the allure of the caverns.
In order to improve the safety of our Cave Homes, our people embark on the endeavor of crafting stone walls from interlocking boulders, a novel technique still in its early stages but brimming with potential.

Quote from: votebox without an original name
Fireside Community: (1) A_Curious_Cat
Settle Down: (1) Quarque
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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2023, 01:24:35 pm »

I understand the fuel concern, but I don't really think we should be so quick to settle down. It's far from certain that we have the best or even a particularly good tile at the moment; I'd keep exploring for a while longer while we still have a lot of time before being a nomad becomes a problem. Besides, if we settle down now, we'd have to start actually working to exploit our resources, so it's not like we don't have the same problem either way.

I do think the problem with fuel is mildly exaggerated given that we're cave people with sharp vision who don't actually need a huge, blazing fire to adequately light an area when a bed of glowing coals would suffice. Still, having thought it over, I can see doing things I was already thinking about in a different order to make it easier, so, people who like my campfire idea, but are worried about getting fuel first, how about the following as an Expansion proposal instead?

Rockbreakers
You learn a lot about rocks, living in the caverns. Each type of rock has its own individual color, texture, even taste. One thing you might notice, if you pay attention, is that some rocks are harder than others. Take one of those harder rocks, give it a bit of a point, and hammer it against a softer one, and the softer rock breaks. Do that for long enough against the places where the cave walls themselves are softer, and you get a hole. Thus, a new skilled trade is born. Though their work can be dangerous and is certainly exhausting, the Rockbreakers, considered by some the new specialized elite of our society, are the first of our kind since we delved into the dark to be able to go where they choose and not just follow the routes nature has carved — provided the mineral veins cooperate.

Just to give you an idea where I'm going with this so you can decide whether you like my vision, my Exploitation proposal for next phase would then be:

Black Gold
Our Rockbreakers reported back an interesting finding: a seam of dark rock with a gritty and almost greasy texture never seen before. It's not too hard to break chunks of this new rock out of the seam using our stone tools, and, as the Rockbreakers were playing around with it, a small accident unveiled something totally unexpected: the black rock burns. The very idea of burning rocks like wood, something we could hardly have imagined before, can only be proof that the gods smile on us down here and have provided us with underground equivalents to the things we could not bring with us from above. If we can find more of this new kind of stone, having the ability to build fires with more than just a few bits of lichen as fuel again will be the first step to making this hole in the ground into a home.

This gives us, I think, a pretty solid footing toward developing things like mining and smelting which we'll need to make the most of the wealth of the deep Earth. My nice campfire idea could then fit into Experimentation or wait for another phase.
I do have two concerns about this, though. One is mechanical, and I hope Paperman will weigh in on it: I'm not actually sure if proposing a new kind of resource is an Exploitation-phase project. To me, the rules about the exploitation phase seem to imply it could be, but maybe we are only meant to propose ways to get resources there. Given that I had previously been thinking of mining itself as an exploitation-phase project and I just rewrote it as what seems to me like a perfectly reasonable expansion-phase social development, I'm not sure how firm the boundaries between the phase types are.
My other concern is: we're going to have to make sure we have plenty of ventilation.
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Man of Paper

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2023, 02:20:29 pm »

You can come up with proposals to help you locate or discover resources your people currently have no conceptual idea of (like metal being anything separate from rock), but you won’t be directly creating and placing them. I’m sure you guys could come up with some, ah, prospective ideas should you decide to expand your knowledge of stone.
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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2023, 02:28:59 pm »

Yeah, okay. I was hoping I could at least target a specific thing if I didn't try to make that resource actually exist somewhere, but I'll have to make do. I still think either of my current proposals are solid.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2023, 02:41:17 pm »

Rockbreakers sounds more like an Exploit phase development to me, but if it's a valid Expand action, I think I might support it. It might seem a bit early to start mining, but... we're going to need to do a lot of it over the coming ages, getting a head start can't hurt.
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Crystalizedmire

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2023, 05:14:37 pm »

Proposal: Bandages
Using textiles, you can bandage part of the wound using this bandage. This helps the body to recover by protecting the wound from bacteria, dirt, and damage. Thus, the healing process is less disturbed.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #68 on: September 08, 2023, 07:22:14 pm »

Yeah, the textiles issue is tough - however, the saving grace with nomadism is that unless this has been changed and this wasn't mentioned (I am asking), there isn't actually anything stopping us from just exploiting the resource while NOT on the tile. Maybe we can even exploit the textiles next phase in such a way that lets us keep it more permanently.

Quote from: votebox without an original name
Fireside Community: (1) A_Curious_Cat
Settle Down: (1) Quarque
Improved Cave Homes: (1) Powder Miner
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2023, 12:23:45 am »

I only see advantages to making a transition to settled civ as soon as possible. Addressing two concerns:

It's far from certain that we have the best or even a particularly good tile at the moment; I'd keep exploring for a while longer while we still have a lot of time before being a nomad becomes a problem.
As a settled civ you can build multiple settlements. If we find a great second spot for a settlement, we can get one there. All it takes is a single expansion action.
And our current tile is great for a settlement. It has three important basic resources right here: food, stone and textile. It also guards the entrance to above-ground.

Besides, if we settle down now, we'd have to start actually working to exploit our resources, so it's not like we don't have the same problem either way.
The longer we wait, the more difficult a transition becomes. If we do it now, we can take care of all of our consumption needs with the upcoming Exploitation action (exploit local food). Our clothing only requires access to textile, not exploitation.
But if we want to transition later into the game, it is bound to become more complicated.

The general trade-off involved in settling (as mentioned in the rule post) is faster progress and more resource stability at the cost of more resource consumption. We barely consume anything yet and both of these advantages are great to get early. Especially if we want to move into the direction of industry.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 01:00:35 am by Quarque »
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Man of Paper

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2023, 01:41:33 am »

A couple points of clarification:

Quote
there isn't actually anything stopping us from just exploiting the resource while NOT on the tile.

Mentioned in discord, but there is something stopping exploitation of resources your tribe isn't on, and that's tech and related bonuses. While this is certainly a possibility later on, the tribe currently can only exploit resources within their borders, and their borders occupy one square.


Quote
If we do it now, we can take care of all of our consumption needs with the upcoming Exploitation action (exploit local food).

You're already exploiting everything on the tile you're on. That'll carry over if you settle that tile while living there. Now, if you expand your borders then the calculus changes, but this way the first settlement your people decide to form (if they do) shouldn't be immediately screwed unless the whole tribe votes to visit Heaven's Gate.


Quote
Our clothing only requires access to textile, not exploitation.

Exploitation is absolutely a requirement for access. What the clothing doesn't require is upkeep.
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2023, 02:37:14 am »

Do we need to move our tribe to M-17 before we can exploit it’s resources?

Edit:  reworded (also fixed autocorrect…)
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2023, 02:46:23 am »

Do we need to move our tribe to M-17 before we can exploit it’s resources?
Based on what Man of Paper said above and on Discord: with our current technology, the answer is yes. Plus we lose our currently exploited resources if we move there.

You're already exploiting everything on the tile you're on. That'll carry over if you settle that tile while living there.
This means that a transition now is easier than it ever will be in the future.

Settling down is the strongest option we have at this moment to accelerate technological progress and stabilize resource income. I really don't see why we would want to remain Nomads in the caves. If we had started in the river biome I could see the appeal.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 02:50:25 am by Quarque »
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A_Curious_Cat

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2023, 02:50:19 am »

Do we need to move the tribe to a tile before we can settle down on it?
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Quarque

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Re: Founding Families - A Semicompetitive Civilization Building Game [Expand I]
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2023, 02:50:54 am »

edit: eh, I misunderstood your question, sorry - I think we can only settle on a tile we occupy as nomads, yeah.

But note that we can always build new additional settlements later.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2023, 02:53:39 am by Quarque »
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