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[Elephant Parade]

I'll vote Hector here since Tric townreading Crystal's vote on them and voting Elephant makes me less inclined to vote Elephant. I don't really want to vote a player Tric is voting for...various reasons.

PPE:

So because we both have an incorrect read and don't scumread each other, the set of [Elephant Parade, Hector] must include exactly one mafioso? I don't follow. Or was that just a spicy way of saying we were your top two scumreads?

Yes it was a spicy way to say my top two scumreads.

Neither of you suspecting the other that much makes me less confident though since that possibly means you're both town or both mafia, and I don't really think you're both mafia.

I'm not convinced on voting sofanthiel or Tric here.

I would be willing to vote Crystal, Caz, or Max though if I can come around on it, in that order.

Gotcha; your talk of solving the game earlier had me unsure. Before this exchange, you were a complete null for me; I feel a bit better about you now that you aren't playing Mysterious Detective T.

[ToonyMan]

My vote is on sofanthiel/Snowkiller because they are stubbornly refusing to participate, though I accept they’re new and are uncertain. I don’t necessarily suspect them, but I want them to push people, even if it’s ineffectually.

Coincidentally, that’s why I moved away from Crystallizedmire.

Like… I’ve asked the same question four or five different times and they keep making excuses and talking about statistics and various things like that.

Would you want either (or both!) of them at M/LYLO, Toony?

It doesn't matter whether I want them at lylo.

What matters is whether they're mafia or not. Is there some other reason I'm not thinking of?

[ToonyMan]

This is why I have more faith in hector than in Mammoth Motorcade, by the way. If you were wondering.

I have to accept that town!Hector is voting players he doesn't really suspect, but is voting so they play better.

Which I don't know if I want to do that.

shut up, stop rambling about the detailed history of the toilet and its itemized cleaning regimen, and flush it already

But it's so... infatuating...

I think the real reason we don't want to vote is because it seems 2 sides are starting to form, and neither Snow nor I wish to be responsible for taking the wrong one and having to bear the consequences 'til death.  Either way, everyone is beginning to grow frustrated with our deliberation, so, after some thought, I think I'll go with Caz (no hard feelings!).

My reasoning is that I found the following argument compelling:

Caz, you've spent practically all of your time calling out obviously bad posts for being obviously bad, which is a niche scum can fill as easily as town. What's something running through your head that I, or anyone, might actually disagree with?

I mean, I don't really like Elephant's vote here. I think it's picking Caz out as a target when I don't think their intent when voting me was malicious. I think if Caz was serious about their vote on me they're really likely town since it's so forceful for them.

[Maximum Spin]

I have to accept that town!Hector is voting players he doesn't really suspect, but is voting so they play better.

Which I don't know if I want to do that.

That's not really how I interpreted it. I thought of it as town!Hector voting players he isn't committed to strongly suspecting, but still suspects, because making excuses and talking about statistics is a traditional way to avoid scumhunting.
Certainly, I'm voting someone I really suspect (and it's one of the same ones), if perhaps not the player I suspect most. Which I still haven't really narrowed down beyond two options yet anyway.

[hector13]

My vote is on sofanthiel/Snowkiller because they are stubbornly refusing to participate, though I accept they’re new and are uncertain. I don’t necessarily suspect them, but I want them to push people, even if it’s ineffectually.

Coincidentally, that’s why I moved away from Crystallizedmire.

Like… I’ve asked the same question four or five different times and they keep making excuses and talking about statistics and various things like that.

Would you want either (or both!) of them at M/LYLO, Toony?

It doesn't matter whether I want them at lylo.

What matters is whether they're mafia or not. Is there some other reason I'm not thinking of?

That’s the point: they haven’t taken part enough (for my liking) to figure that out, hence the vote/FoS. I’ve given them plenty of opportunity while I was pushing on crystallizedmire, for really basic stuff to be honest, but nothing yet.

This is why I ask about LYLO. If they’re not making the effort now when it’s the least problematic for them to make mistakes, and really the easiest point to get involved in the day game, they’re not going to do it when the chips are down.

All I want is a little effort, ‘cause it’s not that hard.

PPE: my philosophy on voting - at least this long before day end, and certainly on D1 - is basically putting pressure on people I suspect and forcing them to do something to make me move it.

Crystallizedmire managed it, as an example of this in action.

PPE2: Max seems to get it.

[ToonyMan]

@Max:
Fine. I understand the logic.

@Hector:
I'd rather have sofanthiel and Snowkiller over Caz, because I can be more confident they'd at least post during lylo, but I'm not voting Caz over a reason like that. I don't see you highlighting Caz the same way as sofan/Snow/Crystal either.

[hector13]

That’s ‘cause Caz is Scottish and thus above suspicion.

T’be fair though, Caz was putting in some effort early doors so got a pass for a bit, particularly re: my poor reasoning for going after EP. Contrast with the trio you bring up not really doing anything despite my, and others, prodding. Inexperience does not preclude effort.

Regardless, I’m not sure if she’s just busy right now and thus can’t post, but there’s a lot happened since her last post. Let’s see where her next post(s) take us.

[ToonyMan]

Hmm Hector with Caz? That would mean town!Elephant is onto mafia!Caz which I'm failing to see. Town!Max would also be off base. It's not impossible but it doesn't seem right.

What if Hector is on the right track? That would mean Elephant is probably town and mafia are...somewhere? It's not a clear image.

What if Max is on the right track? This puts mafia likely as Elephant and someone else. This feels believable, but involves trusting Max.

How do I feel about everyone else?

Tric seems really town.
Sofanthiel seems really town.
Snowkiller seems town.
Crystalizedmire is mixed.

[hector13]

I’m not sure why you think sofanthiel and Snowkiller get a pass while crystallizedmire doesn’t?

[ToonyMan]

I’m not sure why you think sofanthiel and Snowkiller get a pass while crystallizedmire doesn’t?

I rate sofanthiel the highest here. I like them joining Snowkiller's "me no lynch" and especially them saying they're pretty sure they're Elephant's partner. Like who says that? They've done this while also engaging with the game heavily. If it's an act they're fooling me.

Snowkiller I think is posting in a way that shows they are alone as well. However, they have not engaged as much as sofanthiel so I have them lower.
Example: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181909.msg8494670#msg8494670
I like this post.

I did not like Crystalizedmire's side comments and random irrelevant observations at the start of this game. I think they have gotten better since then, hence mixed. I also don't like them voting Caz. I find them a little suspicious over the other two.
Example: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=181909.msg8494674#msg8494674
I don't like this.

[ToonyMan]

Uh, sofanthiel voted Caz that's a mistake I misremembered.

Crystal voted Tric which I think is also bad so that's probably why.

[Caz]

Hmmm, Tric saying something subtly revealing about his role? Probably a good sign he's town?

If it's supposed to be subtle why point it out to everyone if you are town -.-

@Caz:
So much spunk. So much energy.

How do you feel about Max?

I don't know why they're buddying up to Hector, annoyingly both of them seem to read similarly atm. They both seem like they are trying to help newer players, but that’s never indicator of alignment, and sometimes can be scum trying to get influence over the discussion.

It's not an unsound argument, and if you genuinely have no clue, it can indeed be safer to wait for the mafia to give us a hint in the form of a dead body. On the other hand, they could just no-kill and leave you in D1 Again, the D1ening. Still, if I really felt that I had no clue, I'd agree with you. But do you really think you have no clue?

Yeah no you know this is wrong.

@Max and Hector:
I don't really trust either of you. I think it's totally possible you would do this recent banter just now as both mafia.

What do you think the chances are of Max and Hector being scum 2 games in a row?

Elephant Parade and Caz seem to be trying. I'm more on the fence with them because I can see them faking this.

I can't tell if Caz is serious about ending RVS to vote me. If they're serious I think they're absolutely town.

I’m not serious. What now?

Snowkiller and sofanthiel want to no-lynch, on D1, in a 9 player game. I think they're both town.

Being dumb doesn’t make you town, neither does being new. I’m guessing you’re thinking that if they were scum, one of the scum would at least be experienced enough to tell them it is a bad idea?

But if you knew that already, then…  *sips wine*

I am a good lynch because I’ve done a lot, and people this have quite a bit to go on for the future.

I would genuinely rather that than no lynch.

Not me wondering how long before you backstep on the martyr attitude. This is page 9.

I'm changing my vote of hector to hector. Probably not a smart decision but he seems a lot less suspicious.

What's with the nolynching obsession this game. It’s too widespread to be accidental.

Okay, good to know. I still find your playstyle incomprehensible to the point of suspicion, though.

Eh, have you met the Owl?

More seriously, I'm in favor of a death, even if it's my death. The only reason not to lynch is if your role is better off with people alive. Which either paints you as mafia denying town info, or town with an investigative role. Or Cult, Cult is good too.

We've also got 11 people, so it's -2 per Day/Night cycle. 3 days of hitting town, 4 if one death if protected against. 5 if Mafia gets hit. Not Lynching puts us at a disadvantage numerically.

Finally, some sense.

I posted out a bit too late apparently. Or just didn't bold it~
In any case, have a no energy post as I sit here and watch you squabble. Goes to play Atelier Ryza 3.

TricMagic: No effort either shields you from later suspicion or lets scum run the show. Neither reason is town-motivated. But to me, this looks like bait. Slight townread.

Still reading through (start of p12), bear with me.

[Caz]

I think this got snipped from my last post:

I am a good lynch because I’ve done a lot, and people this have quite a bit to go on for the future.

I would genuinely rather that than no lynch.

Not me wondering how long before you backstep on the martyr attitude. What's with this pied piper attitude?

Good News: I'm inching closer to the idea of a D1 lynch, based on what others have said about needing to kill SOMEONE so that we don't have an eternal lynch-freeze and lose the game.

Bad News: I don't know enough about anyone in this game to point the finger at. So I'm still in no-lynch mode. At this rate, I might get lynched by everyone else just to move this along.

This is even worse. You REALISE no lynching is bad, yet you still want to no lynch, yet you want to look good by acting martyr. You're my second pick, SnowKILLER.

Lord have mercy. You all chat something fierce. I turn away for an hour or two and come back to novels. Are all mafia games this conversational?

I've been in games that ran for 40 pages on day one, this ain't nothin.

To answer your question: no. I could maybe go for Maximum Spin, since he seems to be memeing (thus off-tracking the game, which would result in more town hold-ups, and longer mafia lifespan). That's not enough to sentence anyone, of course, but I do believe I have my first suspicious gaze to cast at another player. Well done, Mr. Spin. Well done.

VOTE
OR
RECEIVE
HAT
(the hat kills you)

It's nigh impossible to make a decision because the professionals' reasoning is on a different level than ours (or, at least, mine).  Most of the things they've pointed out are meta-behavioral observations combined with a pre-existing understanding of mafia game trends, which are sometimes contradictory!  See the example below:

Yeah and we can also find out who wants to throw newbies under the bus. Guess who does that?

‘Cause another thing scum do with newbies is offer advice. It makes them look active and helpful, while actually being neither.

In conclusion, the veterans may actually have it all figured out already, but the provided rationale isn't always a priori.  I'll just stick to relying on Max's mind-reading abilities for now!

Honestly, both of those claims are dumb. Mafia do what they want, which can be anything at any time from day to day. My mind-reading abilities, on the other hand, will never steer you wrong.
So you should follow me and vote.

You look more scummy each post.

  Either way, everyone is beginning to grow frustrated with our deliberation, so, after some thought, I think I'll go with Caz (no hard feelings!).

My reasoning is that I found the following argument compelling:

Caz, you've spent practically all of your time calling out obviously bad posts for being obviously bad, which is a niche scum can fill as easily as town. What's something running through your head that I, or anyone, might actually disagree with?

So you agree that Toony is scum? Wild.

As it happens, Caz is still my #1 suspect—she posted a lot but never sought sustained engagement with one person or issue, nor did her sniping-type attacks demand it from others; I find that more suspicious than mere lurking. Unfortunately, she hasn't been online since I made that post, so I don't have much to go off of.

Is tunneling day 1 townie behaviour?

That’s ‘cause Caz is Scottish and thus above suspicion.

T’be fair though, Caz was putting in some effort early doors so got a pass for a bit, particularly re: my poor reasoning for going after EP. Contrast with the trio you bring up not really doing anything despite my, and others, prodding. Inexperience does not preclude effort.

Regardless, I’m not sure if she’s just busy right now and thus can’t post, but there’s a lot happened since her last post. Let’s see where her next post(s) take us.

Legitimate. As irritating as their USA timezones can be, it’s always fun to see where the lazy fingers start to point. I’ll be up late tonight, providing the power stays on.

[Caz]

This miniature text box is honestly gonna give me an aneurysm. Pied piper comment should be directed towards Maximum Spin.

[Crystalizedmire]

I'm changing my vote of hector to hector. Probably not a smart decision but he seems a lot less suspicious.

What's with the nolynching obsession this game. It’s too widespread to be accidental.

Have you noticed the fact that most if not all the people nolynching are newbies?