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[asophila]

Hello fellow fortress builders,

I would like to suggest the addition of vaccines and epidemiology as a new game mechanic in Dwarf Fortress. As some of you may know, early attempts at vaccination were documented in China around 1500 AC (by the name "Variolation"), and it would be exciting to see this reflected in our beloved game.
(https://www.nature.com/articles/d42859-020-00006-7)

The addition of vaccines and epidemiology would provide a new level of complexity to the game, as players would need to carefully manage their fortresses to prevent and manage outbreaks of diseases. Players would need to research and produce vaccines, and strategically distribute them to their population to prevent the spread of disease.

Hospitals could become a critical component of fortress design, with players needing to carefully manage their layouts and staffing to ensure that they can handle outbreaks effectively. Players could also designate specific burrows as quarantine zones, where dwarves who have been exposed to a disease can be isolated to prevent further spread.

The addition of epidemiology could also bring new challenges to trade and diplomacy, as players would need to be mindful of the risk of introducing new diseases to their fortresses through contact with outside merchants.

Overall, the addition of vaccines and epidemiology would provide an exciting new layer of complexity to Dwarf Fortress, and I believe it would be well-received by the community. What do you all think? Would you be interested in seeing this mechanic added to the game?

[brewer bob]

Diseases are mentioned in the development page as a planned feature:

"Diseases/plagues could be included as indirect torments, as well as famine once site resources can be assailed"

Vaccines on the other hand are beyond the tech cut off of 1400s.

[asophila]

Thank you for bringing up the planned feature of diseases in the development page. There appears to be planned as a torment. I think the addition of vaccines (or inoculation, to be historically accurate) could be a logical extension of this feature, as inoculation have been used for centuries as a means of preventing the spread of disease. While the technology for creating vaccines may have been beyond the cutoff of the 1400s, the concept of using inoculation to prevent disease was certainly known and practiced in various parts of the world during that time period, as mentioned in the Nature Article provided.

Furthermore, the addition of vaccines and epidemiology could add a new layer of strategic depth to the game, as players would need to carefully manage the health of their dwarves in order to prevent the spread of diseases and maintain a healthy population. This would require players to invest in research (locate infected cattle, ask the tannery to separate infected wool, blood, or pocks) and production of inoculation elements (prepared vials, wool bracelets to sniff, etc), as well as design their fortresses with hospitals and quarantine zones in mind.

Overall, while the addition of vaccines may not have been a common practice during the medieval period, the concept of using inoculation to prevent disease was certainly known and practiced in various parts of the world, and I believe it could be a valuable and interesting addition to the game, giving hospitals a strategic element, both in placing it correctly, and it's management.

[Shonai_Dweller]

But was it practiced in the 14h century? Seems to be no actual evidence (apart from that one, "we invented it in China but forgot to write it down for 500 years" document).

Well, guess it's close enough. Closer than Plate Mail anyway, ha ha.

[brewer bob]

"Certainly known" seems like a bit of a bold statement. But regardless, if inoculation would be added to the game it should be highly unreliable and work only on specific kinds of diseases.

Not an expert on the topic, so that's just my uneducated two cents.

[Shonai_Dweller]

Ha ha ha. I asked ChatGPT, 'cos that guy seems to know everything.
It repeated the claim of it being first used in China in the 10th century. So I pushed it further and it confidentially told me that

"The evidence for the use of inoculation in 10th century China comes from historical texts, including the "Complete Collection of Effective Prescriptions for Emergency Treatments," which was compiled by the Chinese physician Ge Hong in the 4th century CE"

I...wait..what?

[brewer bob]

Sounds legit.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Try shaking it again and see what it says this time…

[asophila]

This is an article prepared by unesco about diseases along the silk roads, precisely during 500 bc to 1500 ac.
https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/content/spread-disease-along-silk-roads-smallpox

I completely understand the concern about the lack of written evidence for variolation in the 15th century. However, it is important to note that our understanding of history and the spread of disease during that time is not limited to written records alone.

To gain a better understanding of this issue, let's take a look at what was happening during the period from 1000-1400 AC. Ancient civilizations were not primitive, and there was no single point in time where everything was invented overnight. There were differences between people of different time periods, mainly in terms of education, the development of processes, and the creation of structures for social well-being, especially around health.

It is well known that the variola virus affects not only humans but also animals. The animal version of the virus, commonly known as smallpox, can be transmitted quite easily to humans and can cause milder symptoms than the human version of the virus. Moreover, once someone contracts the human smallpox virus, they cannot be sick again from that same virus. If someone contracts the animal smallpox virus, they are unlikely to get sick upon contact with the human smallpox virus or develop much milder symptoms.

In any given community, people will eventually discover the link between contracting the animal smallpox virus and immunity to the human smallpox virus. This knowledge would have been passed down through generations, shared between different civilizations, and likely would have spread along trade routes such as the Silk Road.

It's true that the absence of written evidence doesn't necessarily mean that the knowledge wasn't present in the society. In fact, the absence of written evidence could also mean that the knowledge was so ingrained in the culture that it didn't require documentation. When we do find written evidence, however, it indicates that the knowledge was so widespread that someone felt compelled to write it down and share it with others.

The links I provided do suggest that the knowledge of inoculation or variolation was considered to be "thousands of years old." This reinforces the idea that the knowledge was deeply embedded in the society and had been passed down through generations. It's worth noting that not all knowledge was written down in ancient times. In many cases, knowledge was passed down orally from one generation to the next.

While it's true that we don't have the luxury of having every single piece of parchment or paper ever written, we can still draw conclusions based on the evidence that does exist. For example, if we look at the historical accounts of fathers making infected wool bracelets for their children, we can infer that this was a common practice among people who were knowledgeable about variolation. It's also likely that the knowledge of variolation was widely known because of the importance of maintaining healthy herds of farm animals.

The fact that this knowledge was so deeply embedded in the society is what made it possible for people to share it without fear of being labeled as charlatans or cultural appropriators. It's also what made it possible for the knowledge to survive over time, even without written evidence.

[brewer bob]

Not claiming ancient civilizations were primitive, just questioned some statements you made.

The links I provided do suggest that the knowledge of inoculation or variolation was considered to be "thousands of years old."

I might be blind, but where does this read in the linked UNESCO article?

All I can gather about this claim (with my highly reliable Internet skillz) is that it is based on some ancient Sanskrit texts, which contain mentions of smallpox and its treatment, but offer no evidence of such measures as inoculation/variolation (and that the whole claim is very much contested).

(In any case, I'm not against the idea of having inoculation/variolation in the game.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

Yeah, I mean, it only takes one deep thinker to notice that the chap who had a mild case of smallpox 5 years ago has survived the past 3 epidemics unscathed, and then start a couple of experiments to test his theories.
So, immunization should be part of any disease model. And then, well, whether it was 1500 or 1000 when humans gave the process a name, here they're living in a world with dwarves who all live in small cramped places together, likely they have to put up with a lot of health issues.

I imagine once the knowledge system becomes a bit more robust, and discoveries lead to actual in-game changes, the crossover of the tech cutoff will become a bit looser. And this would be a nice thing to have.

[asophila]

The "Thousands of years" quote comes from the other document linked in the first message.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/jrsm.2012.12k044

I'm fairly new to the forum, I'm a computer scientist married to an epidemiologist, both DF players. So, please, if you see stubborness in my replies, please read it as passion on the subject. The game is great as it is, but if there is room for a suggestion I'll go with this to give power and depth to the hospital technology branch.

Loving the community so far.
 

[brewer bob]

The "Thousands of years" quote comes from the other document linked in the first message.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/jrsm.2012.12k044

Ah, that's actually one of the articles that said about the Sanskrit texts that there's no evidence of inoculation (referencing 'Studies in Indian Medical History', which could be found as a preview on Google Books, but unfortunately much of the crucial parts were cut from the preview) and that the claim is rejected.

I'm fairly new to the forum, I'm a computer scientist married to an epidemiologist, both DF players. So, please, if you see stubborness in my replies, please read it as passion on the subject. The game is great as it is, but if there is room for a suggestion I'll go with this to give power and depth to the hospital technology branch.

Loving the community so far.
 

Welcome to the forums, then!

But back to the suggestion. If/when diseases are implemented variolation/inoculation could be a good way to fight diseases. Plain quarantines would probably cause frustration among many players, somewhat like how one is left to deal with werecurse outbreaks currently. So, more options for the player would be nice.

There's also loads of mild herbal remedies that could be used to alleviate certain symptoms (but not so much the spreading of disease). For instance, DF has meadowsweet (filipendula ulmaria), which contains salicylic acid from which aspirin was synthesized. So, it could act as a mild painkiller. Other symptoms that could be treated with certain plants could include swelling, fever, infections and minor wounds, etc. (But these have been suggested in other threads, iirc, so not delving any deeper into that.)

[Shonai_Dweller]

Remember magic will be a thing by the time any disease model is added to the game. People/Plants/artifacts capable of curing diseases are likely to be available somewhere in the world.

[Buttery_Mess]

If diseases are added to the game and modelled and tracked (after all, curses like lycanthropy and vampirism are) and are allowed to mutate, it's possible that there will be a lethal and a less lethal strain of every disease, and astute players will be able to 'vaccinate' the fort by drowning a spare mildly sick orphan in the well.