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[Salmeuk]

rough draft so please leave comments or suggestions, or post your own playtests in this thread if you desire to join in.

The goal of this mode is to give a series of tasks to the players, giving DF some context, loosely modeled on Against the Storm.

these generators should be used:

https://perchance.org/4hqt7o9ngl
https://perchance.org/5zv1ana691

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

these generators are incomplete and will occasionally spit out irrelevant or nonsensical reward combinations - handle with care

Every year, the player must offer randomized tribute to the queen, who waits patiently back at the Mountainhome for her chosen goods. Think of this like a meta noble mandate. In return, she provides you with a randomized selection of 'blueprints' of workshops and other buildings, or allowances for increases population, or reputation.

The final goal is to reach 30 reputation. This will take at least 4 years of tribute rewards, but likely more. You lose if you reach an arbitrary 20 impatience.

You start the game by drawing three starting workshops using the above generator. Draw 3, pick 1. You always start with the still and the trade depot. All remaining workshops must be earned through the tribute mechanic.

At the start of the game and at every Autumn trade meeting thereafter, you select 5 tribute goals from 8 offered. Tribute Goals are randomized requests for specific objects or materials. Each Goal has a request amount and a targeted object or base material. Goals also come with 'bonus objectives' which grant an additional bonus if they are fullfilled. The usual format is "object type, object material".

To fullfill a tribute, the requested goods must be delivered to the dwarven traders each autumn event. Failure is punished by the Queen's impatience rising by 3pts. 

Every successful tribute you can select whether to:

 decrease impatience by 1pt
 draw a new workshop or building (draw 3 pick 1)
 raise popcap by 5
 increase reputation by 1pt

Thus pop cap slowly grows as you complete tribute. Children locked at 10%. Starting popcap is 10.

The patience of the Queen is also related to various traumatic events that might occur during play. The following events increase the Queen's impatience:

Death or Unrecoverable Insanity of a Citizen: 1 pt
Loss of Trading Caravan: 4pt
Theft of an Artifact: 1pt
Theft of a Child: 3pt
Failure of a Noble's Mandate: 1pt
Failure of a Tribute Goal: 3pt

Positive events, deemed valuable to the efforts of the Mountainhome, are awarded with an increase in the Settlement's reputation:

killing / capturing forgotten beast: 2pt
killing / capturing titan: 2pt
killing / capturing megabeast: 1pt
driving away a siege (not just surviving until they leave): 3pt
producing an Artifact object: 1pt
Offering 10k of goods to dwarven caravan: 1pt

Battle deaths during sieges dont count (sacrifice impresses the queen).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 this puts the 'is fighting worth it?' bar at around 1-2 deaths during any fight that is NOT a siege. So a tough decision is to be made, since losing around 2 dwarves would not be uncommon during ambushes and beast attacks. This also encourages dwarfy behavior like using traps or devices to defeat invaders.

Cavern Breach Rule:

When breaching each cavern layer for the first time (including the magma sea), a special draw of tribute will occur (draw 2 objectives, keep 1). This randomized tribute must be sacrificed as soon as possible - smashing, magma burning, throwing off a tall cliff into an inaccessible pit are all acceptable.

Failure to meet this tribute demand in three in-game months results in the queen's impatience raising by 3. Success grants you the usual tribute reward.

As the years pass, the queens demands grow. This will be arbitrary increase in lower bound (+10) and upper bound (+50) of the tribute demands for this first round of testing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

there is no way for me to automate this atm so it would be up to you to change the numbers

Oh, and for added challenge, you embark with only a pick and an axe. No anvil.



I will be posting test journals as I have time 

[Salmeuk]

First playthrough notes

Workshop draws [brackets are selections]:

the [Stoneworker's workshop], the Magma kiln or the Jeweler's workshop
Of course the stoneworkers. very important to have furniture and pots.

the Magma smelter, the Magma forge or the [Farmer's workshop]
Between the smelter and the farmers.... I went for potential to harvest thread from plants.

the Tanner's shop, the [Magma smelter] or the Leather works
third draw is bad, honestly, but at least i got a second shot at the smelter. could be useful later

Tribute Draws:

discarded:
You must collect 21 cloth. -2 impatience awarded for giant cave spider silk.
You must collect 14 moonstone (or equivalent rarity) cut gemstones. -1 impatience awarded for exact fullfillment.
You must craft 12 Mail Shirts. Random workshop draw awarded for bizmuth bronze.

selected:
You must collect 46 plants. Random workshop draw awarded for 2x fullfillment.
You must collect 20 containers of drink. -2 impatience awarded for 2x fullfillment.
You must collect 30 stone boulders. -2 impatience awarded for Stibnite.
You must craft 12 Animal trap. +5 popcap awarded for Desert lime wood or Sandstone.
You must craft 15 Hatch cover. -2 impatience awarded for Walnut wood or copper.

This tribute draw seems fairly easy, which is why i chose it. knowing how DF surprises you, and also considering that the first year only gives you two seasons to prepare the above tributes, it seems fair to keep things simple at first.

also do note that I drew all 8 options and selected after review. This is not sequential selection, unlike the workshop draws which must be chosen one by one. though I might change this later, it seems too difficult or punishing right now.



Taiga forests to the west, with a cold grassland on the eastern hillside. A thin, frozen stream bends and turns through the hillside, while the ground is covered in thick snow. This particular settlement span two biomes and is nearby all other races. temperature is cold despite the latitude - this world has strangely chilly tropics.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unfortunate placement of the dwarven wagon. Let us pray the ice holds until we unpack.

[brewer bob]

Looking like an interesting challenge, so PTW.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unfortunate placement of the dwarven wagon. Let us pray the ice holds until we unpack.

"You sure this is a good place to park the wagon, Urist?"

"Yeah, it's basically like a road. A slippery one maybe, but easy to follow. Even ol' Thob won't get lost following it."

"Say, did you hear that cracking sound?"

(I've lost several forts when this happens and the ice thaws as soon as the game is unpaused.)

[King Zultan]

This sounds pretty cool I to shall PTW.

[Salmeuk]

first playtest cont

These first two seasons were important. The Queen demanded simple items. Most difficult would be the collection of enough plants and pots of drink to earn the bonus rewards - an extra random workshop draw could make or break the following year. Less concerning were the stone and furniture rewards.

Despite the constant blizzards, the dwarves strove to harvest wild plants. Extra effort was required to dig through the layers of snow and ice.

Two mid-sized hallways were dug, running north south, to become the basis of the surface fortress. A bridge was installed over the frozen stream and the dwarves were ordered not to risk walking across the ice.

A carpenter's shop was built, and we ordered some barr - WAIT. We do not have proper allowance from the Queen to build such things! A bit too easy to fall into old habits.

Then, concern was raised. How exactly were we supposed to craft pots? That was the task of the Stonecrafter, not the Stoneworker. Uh oh.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

wow. and how long have I played this game?!

By the rules of the metagame I was pretty screwed. One final option was possible - dig to the cavern and trigger the special request. Could lead to disaster but hey - I'm here to lose and learn. 

but still, the pressing issue of nothing to drink... no way to heat up the snow... we were mistaken - this place remains frozen year-round.... were we to die like this?

yes. yes we were. RIP Hammerplanted.




Ok ok so that sucked. I took a risky start without guaranteed water and, low and behold, it did me in.

=================

second playtest

workshop draws:
the Fishery, the Clothier's shop or the [Butcher's shop]
the Dyer's shop, the [Smelter] or the Mechanic's workshop
the Kitchen, the Ashery or the [Farmer's workshop]
( these starting workshop draws suck so the caverns will be tempting)


discarded:
You must craft 21 Bed. Random workshop draw awarded for Fungiwood wood or wood.
You must craft 15 Gauntlets. -2 impatience awarded for bronze.
You must collect 24 cloth. Random workshop draw awarded for giant cave spider silk.

selected:
You must collect 18 variscite (or ornamental) cut gemstones. Random workshop draw awarded for exact fullfillment.
You must collect 5 tanzanite (or semi-precious) cut gemstones. -1 impatience awarded for exact fullfillment.
You must collect 29 stone boulders. +5 popcap awarded for Mudstone.
You must collect 28 meat. -2 impatience awarded for 2x fullfillment.
You must collect 49 wood. -1 impatience awarded for Candlenut.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On the northern shores of a woodland lake, up against the craggy mountains, the dwarves settled. This fortress would become known as Copperskies for the brilliant sunsets. A thin bridge led from the trees into the lakeside cliffs, where the dwarves carved halls of limestone, claystone, and rock salt.



Due to my laziness, this test will get an extra two seasons with the first tribute delivery expected next year. I will not allow myself to trade with the autumn caravan when it comes this first half-year.

Boars were spotted on the far side of the lake. Meat!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yet, we had better focus on digging to the cavern to risk for a new workshop. The fortress was hamstrung without the ability to craft furniture...



These first two seasons the dwarves ate raw vegetables, drank lakewater and slept in rough rock rooms. The wooden portion of the tributes was easily secured and left to await next year's offering.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Success! The miner broke into a vein of Pink Garnet, a semi-precious gemstone that will fullfill the second tribute goal.

Quickly following that, the first cavern was discovered, triggering a special draw of two tribute goals:

You must collect 49 stone boulders. -1 impatience awarded for Phyllite.
You must collect 30 chrysocolla (or equivalent rarity) cut gemstones. -1 impatience awarded for exact fullfillment.

Ah. The stone should be easy enough, however, I had only one season from 5th Sandstone (Mid-Autumn) to fullfill this goal. The sooner I did, the sooner I would *possibly* draw some kind of useful workshop.



Catten the Herbalist has gone M.I.A. What. I have no idea what happened ummmm. A search was sent out, and Catten's dessicated corpse was found in a patch of Cloudberry flowers at the top of the lake cliffs. As to how he found his way up there, and what exactly happened to him... we will never know.



By Late Autumn we had assembled the requisite 49 stone boulders. No phyllite could be secured to gain the bonus reward. These boulders were summarily rolled into the lake as a sacrifice to the various deities. A calm was felt by the dwarves afterwards, and soon enough we were granted a choice of rewards.

Draws:
the Metalsmith's forge, the Magma smelter or the [Craftsdwarf's workshop]

Hmmmmm. Not exactly what I wanted but. Without an anvil, the forge was fairly useless, and the smelter similarly. So the craftsdwarf's shop was gained. This gives us pots and whatnot, and trade goods for next year. Still no proper furniture...

to be continued

[BlueTrillium]

Um, hi! So, I am very new to DF (just discovered it from the Steam release) and I'm not familiar with Against the Storm at all, but I've been having a lot of fun with DF so far and I do really like the potential this has for a unique challenge. (I won't even get to play it for awhile since I'm still experimenting with my current fortress, but...) I hope you do not mind if I summarize the challenge here to make sure I understand it correctly. And I also had a few questions.

----- Against the Storm Challenge -----

Premise: Our Ruler is a demanding one and has very particular goals for our settlement. Woe to those who defy the Monarch!

Win Condition: Amass 30 reputation with the Ruler.
Lose Condition: Drive the Ruler's impatience to 20.

Start Condition
The Monarch has graciously granted us the use of:
- The still
- The trade depot
- Three additional workshops generated via https://perchance.org/5zv1ana691 (generate 3 times; choose one shop from each generation)
- An axe and pick are allowed, but we cannot be afforded an anvil to start.
- The initial Monarch demands (as below)
- Both reputation and impatience start at 0.
- Population cap is set to 10. Children 10%.
- Tribute goal quantity ranges from 10 to 50.

Gameplay

Tribute
The Monarch demands tribute be delivered with each autumn caravan.
- Generate 8 tribute goals via https://perchance.org/4hqt7o9ngl. Select 5 of them.
- Failure to reach a tribute goal raises impatience by 3.
- Successfully reaching a tribute goal awards our choice from these options:
--- decrease impatience by 1
--- generate another workshop choice
--- raise population cap by 5
--- increase reputation by 1
- When each cavern layer (or the magma sea) is breached for the first time, generate 2 tribute goals and select 1. This tribute must be sacrificed within 3 ingame months (atom-smash, dump into magma, inaccessible pit, etc). Failure or success of these extra tribute goals rewards exactly the same as the regular annual tribute goals above.
- Each year the tribute goal quantity range rises by 10/50 (e.g. year 2 the range is 20-100, year 3 the range is 30-150, etc)

Impatience
The Ruler is not a patient creature. These events effect impatience:
- tribute goal failure (as above) = +3 impatience
- loss of a citizen to death or insanity = +1 impatience (note that battle death in a siege does not count - sacrifice is admirable)
- loss of a trading caravan = +4 impatience
- theft of an artifact = +1 impatience
- kidnapping of a child = +3 impatience
- failure to meet a regular noble mandate = +3 impatience

Reputation
Yet the Ruler can be benevolent, should we prove worthy. These events effect reputation:
- death or capture of a forgotten beast = +2 reputation
- death or capture of a titan = +2 reputation
- death or capture of a megabeast = +1 reputation
- driving off a siege (not just hiding until they leave) = +3 reputation
- producing an artifact = +1 reputation
- offering 10k of goods to the dwarven caravan = +1 reputation

---------------------------------------

Questions!!

1 - I notice the random generator for workshops may give duplicate options, e.g. a roll might be Bowyer, Bowyer, Farmer. If we get a pull like that, are we stuck with that, or may we re-generate that pull until we get 3 different options? (In theory all three could be the same, e.g. Bowyer, Bowyer, Bowyer. ouchie. heh.)

2 - On embark I see we start with an axe and pick but no anvil, which is fine. Are we allowed to bring other things? (e.g. animals, wood, stone, food, cloth). And if yes, is there a point limit or can we use default embark points? Also, we can spend the dwarf skill points at least, I assume?

3 - I see the tribute range increases by 10/50 each year, but there's no mention of the starting values. I made the assumption that the starting range is 10-50 (so then the range would increase to 20-100, then 30-150, then 40-200, and so on). Is that correct?

4 - For 'delivery of the tribute to the caravan' -- do we give the items to the caravan as a gift, or are we allowed to use the items as trade goods, so long as the caravan obtains them? (I assume we give the tribute as a gift, but felt I should check)

5 - For the tribute goals - if they request the impossible (e.g. asking for lime wood when our embark is the wrong biome for that), can we re-roll the goal, or change the type (e.g. to a type of wood that *is* available)? (I assume we're stuck with it but again figured I'd ask)

6 - Another tribute goal question - I see some goals may demand 'cut gemstones' (as you rolled in your second try here) - but we can't *cut* gemstones without the jeweler workshop... are there goals in there for 'raw gemstones' (I haven't seen any yet), or do raw gemstones count for the 'cut gemstones' goals? (this one I ask because reading your post it sounded like the cut gemstone goals you selected were achievable despite not pulling the jeweler workshop yet). Oh, and do raw/cut glass gems (or other gems like stone or bone) count if they're the correct rarity tier? (and how do I tell the rarity of other materials if they are allowed)

7 - And one more tribute goal question - what exactly does 'exact fulfillment' mean for getting the bonus reward?? Like, if it says I have to collect 8 highwood and I chop a tree and get 9... am I busted on getting the bonus? What if I already had more than 8 highwood in stock? Or am I good to get the bonus so long as I deliver exactly 8 highwood to the caravan? (Although, there's no reason to give the caravan extra, so it'd always be exact? idk) I just feel like 'exact fulfillment' might be almost impossible to track, depending on how it's defined.

---------------------------------------

Suggestions/Ideas!!

- There are rewards/penalties for creating and losing an artifact -- maybe there could also be rewards for obtaining artifacts elsewhere (e.g. raiding, snagging them off of 'visitors', etc)?

- Also perhaps some reward for destroying an enemy site (conquer/occupy, or raze to the ground)?

I'm sure there'll be more questions/ideas (I apologize in advance) but thanks for bearing with this massive post.

[Salmeuk]

Awesome, thanks for taking the time to read and parse the ruleset. do you mind if I steal your nicely formatted version of the rules? I have some updates in mind but I'm waiting to finish two or three playtests to confirm my thoughts. stuff like adding farms to the workshop rolls, or adding further tribute rewards such as training a certain number of legendary fighters or miners etc.

re: your questions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Questions!!

1 - I notice the random generator for workshops may give duplicate options, e.g. a roll might be Bowyer, Bowyer, Farmer. If we get a pull like that, are we stuck with that, or may we re-generate that pull until we get 3 different options? (In theory all three could be the same, e.g. Bowyer, Bowyer, Bowyer. ouchie. heh.)

2 - On embark I see we start with an axe and pick but no anvil, which is fine. Are we allowed to bring other things? (e.g. animals, wood, stone, food, cloth). And if yes, is there a point limit or can we use default embark points? Also, we can spend the dwarf skill points at least, I assume?

3 - I see the tribute range increases by 10/50 each year, but there's no mention of the starting values. I made the assumption that the starting range is 10-50 (so then the range would increase to 20-100, then 30-150, then 40-200, and so on). Is that correct?

4 - For 'delivery of the tribute to the caravan' -- do we give the items to the caravan as a gift, or are we allowed to use the items as trade goods, so long as the caravan obtains them? (I assume we give the tribute as a gift, but felt I should check)

5 - For the tribute goals - if they request the impossible (e.g. asking for lime wood when our embark is the wrong biome for that), can we re-roll the goal, or change the type (e.g. to a type of wood that *is* available)? (I assume we're stuck with it but again figured I'd ask)

6 - Another tribute goal question - I see some goals may demand 'cut gemstones' (as you rolled in your second try here) - but we can't *cut* gemstones without the jeweler workshop... are there goals in there for 'raw gemstones' (I haven't seen any yet), or do raw gemstones count for the 'cut gemstones' goals? (this one I ask because reading your post it sounded like the cut gemstone goals you selected were achievable despite not pulling the jeweler workshop yet). Oh, and do raw/cut glass gems (or other gems like stone or bone) count if they're the correct rarity tier? (and how do I tell the rarity of other materials if they are allowed)

7 - And one more tribute goal question - what exactly does 'exact fulfillment' mean for getting the bonus reward?? Like, if it says I have to collect 8 highwood and I chop a tree and get 9... am I busted on getting the bonus? What if I already had more than 8 highwood in stock? Or am I good to get the bonus so long as I deliver exactly 8 highwood to the caravan? (Although, there's no reason to give the caravan extra, so it'd always be exact? idk) I just feel like 'exact fulfillment' might be almost impossible to track, depending on how it's defined.

1. yea just reroll. not elegant i know. I have not had much time to update these generators, but all the syntax is present to correctly prevent duplicates etc. another issue is drawing a workshop you already own - same thing, just re-roll.

2. I'm thinking of giving us some kind of very VERY harsh point buy system. Something like 5 points, with each object having a certain value. you know, to give the player decisions. I haven't had much time to think this through. any suggestions here for systems are welcome

3. again, I kinda just threw this down.  the idea is to increase the tributes over time to provide increasing challenge, since most established fortresses could EASILY produce the tribute as it currently generates. I'm having trouble finding uh good ranges that aren't stupid impossible on the first year, but retain challenge after say three years of play. So one way would be to increase the values over time by a set amount. Not sure if Perchance has this kind of feature, so as it stands it would be a straight addition to whatever number you rolled.

4. tribute as gift only. and if you miss the caravan... hmm. that would be a game breaking event honestly, as the rules stand. I think right now I would accept the player simply destroying / throwing the goods off a cliff.

5. my idea here was to provide the basic material vague and always accessible, while the 'bonus' would be something completely random and potentially inaccessible. as it stands, it seems a bit TOO inaccessible in most cases. I want to rewrite the listing of materials to take into account rarity, since you can do this pretty easily through Perchance. So something like a 2x more likely roll for certain wood types.

6. wow I hadn't realized something there, and I was playing my current test wrong in this sense. Hmm. This is interesting in the sense that the jewelers shop suddenly becomes a really really great pick, since it opens up so many of the various tribute rewards for completion. but you are correct in noting that it sort of breaks the game and forces a lot of failed tribute rewards for anyone WITHOUT the jewelers.

perhaps it should draw from two lists, raw gemstones as you said, and also cut gemstones. I will ponder this one. I also want to work in tributes requiring large gemstones, but the fact these cannot be produced on demand makes me hesitant.

I dont think glass gems should count - too easy to manufacture. and for relative rarity i just use the wiki - you could also like trade and see the value I guess.

7. Ah, exact fulfillment is a confusing term for what I meant. put more simply, you can either hit the basic request for wood, metal, or gemstones of a certain variety, OR, if you are lucky, you can try to obtain the specific material as described by the bonus reward. so a tribute requesting 50 wood could be fulfilled with any type of log, but if those 50 logs were pine logs instead, you would ALSO gain the bonus reward as written. No need to track item production (what a nightmare)

good questions. I hope to have more time this week to work on fixing up these confusions.
---------------------------------------

Suggestions/Ideas!!

- There are rewards/penalties for creating and losing an artifact -- maybe there could also be rewards for obtaining artifacts elsewhere (e.g. raiding, snagging them off of 'visitors', etc)?

- Also perhaps some reward for destroying an enemy site (conquer/occupy, or raze to the ground)?

I'm sure there'll be more questions/ideas (I apologize in advance) but thanks for bearing with this massive post.

adding rewards for successful raids, artifact thefts, is a great idea. it would give a fortress strong in military the option to use that strength to gain more reputation, rather than wait for beasts to arrive. I will do some research on the various results of raids and try to implement this

keep the ideas coming, if you got em. I actually had a moment playing with these rules, where I literally felt like I was making the same nailbiting decisions as I do when playing Against the Storm (which I pretty much played out completed a while back) and that was nice.

[BlueTrillium]

Sure thing, you can absolutely use my writeup! I'm still refining it, as well/will continue as things are adjusted. ^_^


All right, so for 'exact fulfillment' goals, let's see if I'm following correctly:

The goal I rolled was "You must collect 25 precious fire opal (or equivalent rarity) cut gemstones. -2 impatience awarded for exact fullfillment."
- So I could fulfill this with a mixture of 25 gems of appropriate rarity/value for the base fulfillment, but if I actually managed to give them 25 fire opals (no other gems), then I'd get the bonus reward. Got it now! *thumbsup* I hadn't noticed right away that that text only appeared on gem goals (and in turn gem goals seem to be the only ones right now that mention a specific type of material in their 'base' requirement).


And, I see, the 10-50 added to tribute goals each year wasn't a range, just a flat addition. I was overcomplicating things, heh. So I'd roll a # between 10 and 50 (e.g. 27) and then add that to the goal I rolled, so if the goal was '17 wood', I'd end up with an actual goal of 17+27 = 44 wood for the second year. Then if it was third year I'd either multiply the 27 by # years, or generate that many numbers to add (e.g. third year so add 2 numbers so generated 27 and 12, goal gave me 33 stone so actual goal for third year is 33+27+12 = 72 stone)


For embark points, hm. The easiest thing to implement would probably be a point limitation, or a point limitation combined with some other 'you can't bring this' limitations. Or even another random generator giving you a list of things (besides the anvil) that you can't bring? (also limiting skill points on dwarves would be a separate limit vs the item points on what you can bring).

So for example (this is totally random and probably not balanced as you'd like) -- Say we're limited to allocating 5 skill points per dwarf (instead of the full 10/dwarf), and no skill can be higher than 3 points, or similar. And then for items to bring along, maybe we can bring 500 points of gear/animals (instead of the full 1500-ish points), with anvils (and possibly other things) not being allowed -- a random generator here might tell us 'no animals allowed, and no wood logs' -- though in that case we'd still get the random wagon animals and the 3 logs from the wagon so idk. Of course cheesing the point system to actually get more starting barrels (to get around not pulling a carpenter workshop for awhile) is pretty easy... but starting out with no food/drink/etc at all is also super rough, hm.


Just for fun I've generated a couple start scenarios, lol. The first one I generated felt like near instant death haha. ALL my workshop pulls were useless (e.g. tier 2-3 stuff where I had no way to make input materials - forge without smelter, leatherworks without tanner or tanner without butcher, etc). Second and third were a little better - I got craftsdwarf workshop on both of those so at least pots were available as a substitute for barrels.

And yeah tribute goals seemed tough first year. I haven't had a test yet that had all-achievable goals on paper. Most had at least 2 tribute goals that were unachievable (that's 2 out of the 5 kept), so (barring diving headfirst for the caverns and hoping for a lucky pull) that starts us off at a 6-impatience deficit with the first caravan (almost 1/3 of the lose scenario) even if everything else goes well... which is definitely challenging! It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I'll think on it.
- Maybe for the initial goals, generate 8 but only pick 3, or 4 - still pick 5 every time after that. Though fewer goals also means fewer rewards possible to help with the *next* goals...
- Maybe keep goals as-is but just reducing the impatience penalty for missed goals the first year to 2, or even 1...

Another idea might be to come up with some way to generate additional goals/rewards in addition to hitting the caverns, so we're not SOL if we hit some impossible condition and already hit all caverns + magma sea and got bad pulls for all of them, etc. Not sure if that would make things too easy though.

Anyway! Off to generate a few more random starts and see what sort of things pop up. It's great fun putting the goals and workshop pulls together to see what's achievable, and using those to indicate what sort of biome/embark I'd look for to give myself the best chance to fulfill them.

[Salmeuk]

great feedback, again! reply in spoiler

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And, I see, the 10-50 added to tribute goals each year wasn't a range, just a flat addition. I was overcomplicating things, heh. So I'd roll a # between 10 and 50 (e.g. 27) and then add that to the goal I rolled, so if the goal was '17 wood', I'd end up with an actual goal of 17+27 = 44 wood for the second year. Then if it was third year I'd either multiply the 27 by # years, or generate that many numbers to add (e.g. third year so add 2 numbers so generated 27 and 12, goal gave me 33 stone so actual goal for third year is 33+27+12 = 72 stone)

that's kinda what I meant... its more like, for the more difficult tier of tribute rewards, aka metal weapons, armor, clothing, the growth of these requests should be less than the growth of requests for things like logs or stone. but now reading this back I'm like, too complicated.

- Maybe for the initial goals, generate 8 but only pick 3, or 4 - still pick 5 every time after that. Though fewer goals also means fewer rewards possible to help with the *next* goals...
- Maybe keep goals as-is but just reducing the impatience penalty for missed goals the first year to 2, or even 1...

but reading this changed my mind. so it would make total sense to just increase the number of requested tributes each year. and this provides inherent handicap for the first years, increasing over time, and itself is another number that could be modified as part of balance and whatnot. great idea!! again, once I sit down to draft these ideas I will include this for sure. 3 in the first year sounds perfect, easy enough but still something to keep in the back of your mind as you establish the colony.

For embark points, hm. The easiest thing to implement would probably be a point limitation, or a point limitation combined with some other 'you can't bring this' limitations. Or even another random generator giving you a list of things (besides the anvil) that you can't bring? (also limiting skill points on dwarves would be a separate limit vs the item points on what you can bring).

i guess I've played enough where the starting skill points don't really. . . matter? Then again, it would be pretty nice to start with some extra items or at least ONE skilled mason or craftsdwarf. I think 500 points might be too much, like you said it is easy to cheese the embark system to bring huge quantities of barrels and whatnot.

So, I thought about this a bit and came up with a different solution. rather than the player having full selection of items, we can just resort to further RNG shenanigans. next time I work on this I will list out a series of possible 'embark packages' that represent categories of useful items. so like, one package might include 20 barrels of brew. Or a single anvil. or a pair of swords. or a bundle of logs and metals. That kind of thing. Players could roll and pick from a list similar to the workshop draws. for simplicities sake, we could include 'skill packages' in this RNG set, so players would be picking between things like having a starting team of masons and miners, or bringing an anvil. you could also sequester these skill packages in their own RNG roll.. but I like simple. there is already a lot of bureaucratic upkeep associated with this challenge as written



So, I've noticed one theme that remains undecided - I'm thinking that, in order to keep things simple, players must choose all rewards before they enact those rewards. This prevents players from rolling for workshops, one reward at a time, until they get the exact workshop and then can safely apply the remaining rewards towards popcap increase or whatnot.

Secondly... weight of tribute is a big issue I hadn't considered. Stones and even logs are far to heavy to offer to most caravans. So some other official method of offering goods should be decided. some kind of requisite offering pit? or temple of burning? This is where the player's imagination can help smooth over gaps in the challenge's logic.

========

Against the Storm test 2, post 2: Copperskies

On the 25th of Moonstone, the lake froze over.


Unless Tarn implements surprise Ice Fishing, this was important to note in case of fish tribute requests.



A week later, our still began operation, brewing prickle berries and storing the resulting wine in limestone pots. Just in the nick of time! I was getting worried Copperskies was about to suffer the same fate as the first playtest.

We found tetrahedrite, and kaolinite (very important!) but the stone lacked gems.



The tributes as of Spring. We still needed 15 ornamental gemstones and also meat... the animals would be slaughtered come autumn. The queen's impatience will force our hand.



More furious digging. Our miner had become expert in these two seasons.

TEST NOTES: should I add farms to the workshop draws? lock them away? what if they were included with carpenters, crafters, stoneworkers, etc, as 2x more than common rolls?



At mid-spring, the miner found further gems, and we were elated to learn we had finally fullfilled the first wave of tribute requests, with a season and a half to spare.



Besides churning out trade goods, the fortress had little else to do. The summer was dedicated to smoothing the halls. The effort was rewarding, and soon the natural limestone corridors glinted like pearl. Viewing the great blazing sunsets from the bridge was a favorite evening activity of the dwarves.



===



TEST NOTES: i need to add cheese for tribute requests. cheeeeeseeeee

the traders arrived. we slaughtered the goat and yak and brought this meat to the depot, along with the stone, wood,  and gems. Then, an unforseen problem.

"Why did the queen request such heavy items? We have no capacity to haul this back."



regardless, we loaded the meat gems and some of the wood. Work needed to be quick since the traders would only stay a while. Figurines and rings and mugs were brought, just enough to purchase one of the steel anvils. GLORIOUS. now I just needed to actually learn to build the forges.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The items that were untradeable were sacrificed to the lake gods as before.

A week later, the queen's messenger arrived, with terrible news. We foolishly failed to provide CUT gems, and our rough stones were unrecognizeable and worthless. The other tributes were successful, but with the unexpected failure of two of the tributes we were at a loss and the Queen's impatience would grow.

I decided to make things interesting and force gem tributes to be cut gems only.

First Year's Tribute results:

You must collect 18 variscite (or ornamental) cut gemstones. Random workshop draw awarded for exact fullfillment.
Failed. must cut gems
You must collect 5 tanzanite (or semi-precious) cut gemstones. -1 impatience awarded for exact fullfillment.
Failed. must cut gems
You must collect 29 stone boulders. +5 popcap awarded for Mudstone.
too heavy for caravan. 30 stones sacrificed.
You must collect 28 meat. -2 impatience awarded for 2x fullfillment.
30+ meat offered, but no bonus award.
You must collect 49 wood. -1 impatience awarded for Candlenut.
 ~20 wood offered. remaining sacrificed.

Impatience rises by 4pt due to failed tribute. 3 rewards may be chosen. I will chose:

three workshop draws. the fortress needs furniture, damnit!


draw 1: the Bowyer's workshop, the Smelter or the [Fishery]
hmmmm. fishery or smelter?? ooof I think i will go fishery since I still lack the wood burner, thus lacking fuel, and would much prefer the magma smelter anyways.
draw 2: the Magma glass furnace, the Wood furnace or the [Magma forge]
ffff maybe I SHOULD have gone furnace. this is a tough choice, since sand is present, all three could be very useful in the following years. I will go Magma Forge and pray for another smelter draw.
draw 3: the [Magma glass furnace], the jeweler's workshop or the Metalsmith's forge
here I went for the glass furnace, for furniture. now we just need bags (no clothier. yet.)

seems like, with these picks, I just consigned the dwarves to digging straight for the magma sea. And likely finding and triggering both "cavern events" in the process.

at least we have fish now .

[King Zultan]

TEST NOTES: should I add farms to the workshop draws? lock them away? what if they were included with carpenters, crafters, stoneworkers, etc, as 2x more than common rolls?[/b]

Might want to keep that one as free to keep from killing a fort early because of a bad workshop roll.

[BlueTrillium]

Gotta say, one thing I really like about this challenge idea is that it definitely guides you straight into learning more about the game (e.g. unusual materials that you maybe wouldn't usually make things from, but are still possible). For example on one of my test rolls I thought it'd be awful because I only got one 'achievable' tribute goal... but then after some wiki'ing around I realized... I can make pots from glass! (and I had magma glass furnace as a workshop pick option). And there was something else I could make out of glass too that I hadn't realized. Suddenly, I had three 'achievable' goals instead of one! xD Maybe that's not such a big deal for old hands at the game, but for me it's definitely making me look at things I hadn't thought to look at before.

I did have to laugh when I rolled a tribute goal that said "get 27 anvils, bonus for wood or silver" xDD I was like "impossible? let me count the ways..."

RE dwarf skill points at embark - on my part (on a non-challenge embark) I like to spend points on harder/slower to train things (or things I don't like training/don't know how to train) like Tactician or Engraver, and to set up a manager/broker with Appraiser/Judge of Intent, etc. So mostly social-style skills, some combat like Shield User sometimes. xD But yeah I don't use it to start up with 'easier' skills like Miner or Cook, etc. How that works into your vision for the challenge, I don't know. Certainly, disallowing or reducing skill points would make things harder but not majorly harder, so if you wanted to get rid of them it wouldn't break anything I believe. (though, I really don't know how/if it's even possible to train Judge of Intent, I think that's my biggest impact from this change, but all that'd mean is hoping for a migrant with it.)

At any rate, if you implement the 'embark packages' random draws, that'll be covered one way or the other so no worries.

RE adding farms to workshop draws. Hm. I mean, we already can't even get seeds unless we (a) bring them on embark, or (b) can get them from the Still (req barrel or pot), or (c) wait for dwarves to eat stuff and leave seeds behind (which, okay that's probably the main way it'll happen in this challenge heh). Plus, seeds without bags will get annoying fast haha. It's a very slow but reliable food source (esp if we can't jumpstart Planter skill on embark, and of course fertilizing is straight out for years most likely). On the other hand I can see where it might make some plant/fruit tribute goals easier. Hrm. I think I am still personally leaning towards allowing at least some 'free' farms but if you're feeling like they make things too easy, could restrict the size? e.g. maybe to start you can only have 3 squares of farm, and then the limit is increased if you draw certain workshops, or... well that might be getting too complicated. Adding extra farm space directly to the workshop draws (3 more squares per draw?) might be the simplest and most straightforward way if you wanted to restrict farming (with or without starting 'free' farms). Or if you don't want to make it a workshop draw, it could be another option in the tribute rewards (the main rewards not the bonus ones) so people who don't want/need to farm could just ignore that option (so they could choose pop cap, lower impatience, higher rep, workshop draw, or more farm space). I kinda like that idea.

I'd agree on choosing all tribute rewards before rolling random ones.

I'd also agree that inaccessibly dumping/smashing tribute goals counts if you can't deliver it to the trade caravan due to weight. That method is already established for the cavern goals anyway so it's not really extra complexity. And it's generally favorable to give as much as possible to the caravan to increase wealth, so destroying it instead isn't an OP alternative.

[BlueTrillium]

All right, so... I might owe you an apology, because I got all starry-eyed at perchance and kinda frankensteined your generators together as an excuse to learn a bunch more stuff about it. *sweatdrop*

Anyway, I got it to the point where I think I have all the original stuff that you talked about (plus a bit extra from my own fevered brain) so I figured I'd better share it and see if there's anything in there that'd be useful to you.

https://perchance.org/studqkotec

Absolutely feel free to cannibalize anything, or poke holes in it, or use it or ignore it or whatever. If there's anything you're interested in me explaining why I did x or y thing, or how z statement works, or stuff you'd like me to research or add (or remove) or anything, just let me know, heh ^_^' This was basically just for my own use/convenience/testing, and the fun of digging into a new thing. I'm a code-dwarf! Let's hope I didn't dig too deep...

[BlueTrillium]

If you'd like me to do this in a different thread please just let me know!

Well... I got impatient trying to dig out the pillar in my current fortress (never even hit 'candy' yet...) and wanted to try this out. I think for my next learning curve I shall try... a volcano, too. If I can find one I like. xD But first! Generating embark workshops and goals. (Also gonna use my frankensteined generator, just to test it out more.)

Goal and Workshop options:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Aaannnd already I see a bug. That "6 pieces of ." goal is 6 pieces of some kinda cloth. I've fixed that bug now so it won't show up again, but since I won't take that goal anyway, I'll keep this roll of goals. But wow, that's actually a really nice roll. Very low numbers.

Workshop Choices (in order): Farmer, Magma Kiln, Magma Forge
Definitely gotta get a volcano now! And some clay hopefully.

Three Tribute Goals for first Autumn caravan:

• Collect 11 plants. Bonus: 2x fulfillment grants random workshop draw.
• Collect 25 wood logs. Bonus: All apple or all larch grants -2 impatience.
• Collect 15 wood logs. Bonus: All hazel or all chestnut grants random workshop draw.

Gonna look for a Temperate zone for those trees. Hope I don't regret not taking the 10-logs one, but I wanted that -2 impatience chance.

Since random "Embark Packages" haven't been implemented yet, I'm just going to limit things on this test embark like so:

• No anvil, one pick, one axe. (as originally stated)
• Limit 5 skill points spent per dwarf, max 3 points in any one skill.
• Limit 500 embark gear points spent.
• Limit 5 total livestock (not counting the random wagon-pullers).
• Limit 15 barrels and 5 bags, regardless of what's in them.

Welcome to Thadar Satheth, the "Planet of Hurricanes", year 100. Somewhere in this world, the lady roc Thran roams the skies. This is the Age of Legends.

This is our site: In the middle of The Outrageous Prairie, a peninsula off of the Obscure Land, with humans but a stone's throw away... We have claimed the volcano The Brushed Torches for our good King Ase Omsoswarul of The Entangled Iron; may his reign never cease (and may his demands remain light).

Spoiler: This is Fine (click to show/hide)

Our settlement is Zoluth Sidos, "The Combat of Buttons", and we are Usenmabdug, "The Helpful Ales". Strike the Earth!

[BlueTrillium]

An interesting start....

Spoiler: The Dwarves (click to show/hide)

Meng, the sole lady dwarf, is also the expedition leader.

I did not expect there to be snow!!

Surveying our resources....

There are several kinds of clay here, including fire clay! Promising. There is also some exposed white sand, should we need it.

Unfortunately, both wood tribute bonuses are already forfeit. We have oak, walnut, and maple. Plum, persimmon, and pecan. We even have highwood. But nothing the King had expressed a preference for. Fortunately there is a nice variety of forage-able plants, including hemp for fiber. Although... peas, garlic, soybean, rhubarb... I don't think those are farmable OR brewable. Oi. Kaniwa and white millet might be ok once I can get a quern.

And the milk we brought... is FROZEN. Oh dear.

[BlueTrillium]

Spoiler: Fort at End of Spring Year 1 (click to show/hide)

It's a mess, but it's home and most things are inside. Food and drink started out rough, but I decided to allow myself 6 farming squares and I am using them to grow rhubarb (for food - can't cook it if I want seeds, but I don't have a kitchen anyway), and raspberries (brought on embark, for drink). We also eat cheese. The dwarves are surprisingly content at the moment.

But there are thieves about; fortunately they didn't take anything too important.



And we filled up on migrants! No useful skills right now but... Tobul and Mafol are married. Tosid left 2 lovers behind, but brought along a baby alpaca and baby horse.

Spoiler: Oops (click to show/hide)

Tosid had a bit of an accident with magma. Sorry Tosid, I thought diagonal fortifications would work. >_< But hey we have some magma for the kilns now, so your sacrifice was not in vain. (The weird thing is, Tosid escaped the hole with just a burnt finger... and then he took a couple steps and melted into ash. Just him. All his clothes were fine, not 'worn' or burnt at all. Poor dude. And I can't make memorial slabs yet either. Please don't haunt me, Tosid, I'm doing my best!)


Tosid's replacement. A steel axe, and a more competent woodcutter! He also left behind his entire family and children but brought his pet baby chicken. Priorities!

And now the moment of truth - the King's caravan has arrived! They seem impressed so far. As a note for next year:
ooo I think ceramic pots and jars might count for tools there.

After much haggling I was able to buy enough weight off of the caravan (mostly by buying a couple animals I don't need but oh well I have cages now). After that, the caravan was able to accept my gifted tribute of 22 plants (all rhubarb) -- fulfilling the bonus goal for plants -- and 40 total logs -- fulfilling both log goals (but no bonus). The caravan packed up and made their way safely off the map.

Success!! Now to the rewards.
I get a workshop draw as the bonus from the plants goal, so let's roll that first...

Absolutely taking Craftsdwarf from that bunch.

I get 3 more rewards for the base goals, and I have to decide first. Hm... gah, I really need more workshop options so I'll go all three workshop draws.
Draw 1 - -- Kitchen (that will help with food and trade!)
Draw 2 - -- Carpenter (yay beds!)
Draw 3 - -- Smelter (unfortunately I was NOT able to afford an anvil, so I still can't build the forge but... closer).
Annnd still no way to make a slab for Tosid. Hang in there a bit longer, Tosid!

Now the goals for next year (pick 4 -- I'm doing a slow increase where embark was 3 goals, year 1 here is 4 goals, and thereafter is 5 goals as normal)

Spoiler: Tribute rolls (click to show/hide)

Ow, Kingy was definitely less kind this year. Let's see...

• 17 pipe sections, bonus workshop if all wood.
• 55 stone, bonus 5 popcap if all anhydrite or all microcline.
• 56 raw plants, bonus 5 popcap for 2x fulfillment.
• 16 empty barrels, bonus unachievable so doesn't matter.

Doubtful I'll find that bonus stone type, but we can try.

Final Status for Year 1:

• Impatience = 1 (death of Tosid)
• Reputation = 0
• Population = 10 (cap 10)
• Available workshops = trade depot, still, farmer, magma kiln, magma forge, craftsdwarf, kitchen, carpenter, smelter