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[Fluffe9911]

On the contrary, if I were scum, why would I want to let myself be lynched? Town is almost always more willing to be lynched than scum. There are exceptions, but generally, there are plenty of town and one player isn't worth as much as everyone else being more informed.

Well ya wouldn't but saying just lynch me when ya know you probably aint gonna be lynched can be a good smoke screen if your actually a mafia cause as you mention it does make you look like town which is what really matters here. Of course this is under the assumption your betting on them not actually lynching you which personally is probably not a bet I can see you taking right now so ill reluctantly believe your town.

[ToonyMan]

Max seems pretty genuine here. We know he's not the cop since he claimed no power early on, which could be a scum move, but it's strange because scum would want to claim a power role if they're about to die to at least out a town role power. Max claiming townie means he can't make this move if he was mafia. It's not perfect logic, but it is relatively convincing.

[zemaj]

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

QFE.  I mean, if it's elimination for information, that makes sense, I guess.  I've had enough interactions, reads, etc. that I would be a decent enough target.  Probably better than Toony, as most feel me less town, and better than Max, for more content to draw conclusions from.  I don't like this idea, in fact, I am in direct opposition to it, but I see the reasoning, and it isn't without merit.

As for me and FoU scumteam... I don't get it, but then I know my role, so I haven't analyzed that angle.  We were apparently suspicious of each other, then rated each as likely town, but thats not weird for me, at least... I'm usually suspicious of my town reads.

PPE:

And of course Fluffe9911 starts showing up and in force as soon as I mock him about it.

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

Well it mostly goes back to the start of the first day Zem jokingly says FoU and you are his top scum candidates in a case closed boys meme type way. They joke around for a bit and then Fallacy does a nonserious vote on Zem with the added words of ``He's not scum, I just want to see his reaction.`` all of this feels way too buddy buddy for two town who as far as im aware have never interacted with eachother before. Fallacy simply feels too confident about Zem not being bad that it frankly looks suspicious as hell to me the fact they aint accused eachother at all since does not help my feelings here.

It's pretty much what Fluffe says. zemaj and FoU show blind support of each other for reasons I do not understand. It's not to say they could both be town, but it bothers me. Plus the stuff with a1s where they both had them as suspicious which I disagreed with.

there we go.  Not sure how that makes me more a candidate than Fallacy, but apparently it does.

[IronyOwl]

I stand corrected! Why is the scumteam zemaj and Fallacy, rather than you and MaximumSpin?

Aw, Irony, that's mean.

You're dangerous and weird.
ToonyMan is also dangerous and weird, but appears to be panicking as day ends, as is good and proper for town who's realizing we don't have anything and the clock is ticking down.
zemaj became immediately defensive and opaque upon being questioned about his scumpick reasoning.
Fluffe has been completely useless until ten minutes ago.

FoU is town by everyone's reckoning but I have no idea what he's doing lately.
Jim feels town to me, albeit more interested in blowing himself up than blowing up scum.
a1s has claimed, so apparently ironclad town.

Current votes by my reckoning:

- Toonyman -
- Jim Groovester
- MaximumSpin - [4] a1s, Zemaj, FallacyofUrist, Irony Owl
- FallacyofUrist
- Fluffe9911 - [1] Jim Groovester
- a1s -
- Zemaj - [3] MaximumSpin, Toony, Fluffe9911
- Irony Owl
- No Elimination

If we make the assumption that scum aren't voting each other, we get two different factions.

You and zemaj are voting for each other, which implies the scumteam isn't Max+zemaj. Not that I'd put it past you to suggest you bus each other to spread yourselves out.
Both you and Fluffe are voting zemaj, which implies the scumteam wouldn't be zemaj+Fluffe or zemaj+Max.

Thus, my current best guess is you and Fluffe are the scum and have both been lurking your way to victory because neither of you really cares about finding the scum that you are.

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

Spoiler: Exhibit A (click to show/hide)

<scumlist>

Is your scumlist any different from your playing poorly list?

Hmmm... now that is a loaded question, with a subjective qualifier. 

What makes you say it's loaded?

... the definition?

This is profoundly unhelpful. Make it helpful.

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: Here's my scumlist
IO: Is that just a list of who's playing bad?
zemaj: What a loaded question!
IO: How so?
zemaj: DUH!
IO: What?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

Spoiler: Exhibit B (click to show/hide)

I'll still bite though:  a bit.  Stratified the same, but FoU would be mid with you, Jim would probably be with Toony.  Then bring everyone (and I am not excusing myself from that) down a couple tiers.  Activity has been much lower than I would have expected, and lets face it, not every post is going to be gold, or even lead, so we need some quantity unless we all up the quality post haste.

So you think worse play is directly correlated with likelihood of being scum, with the exception of Jim who's scummier than his play would indicate and FoU who's townier?

Did I say that?  Pretty sure you are the only one who said any such thing.  Please learn the difference between what is stated and what you would like to hear.

How does what you said differ from what I said you said?

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: My playing quality list is the same as my suspicion list except -FoU and +Jim. Then -everyone because they're playing bad.
IO: So your scumlist is your playing poorly list but +FoU and -Jim?
zemaj: Who said that? Only you said that. Don't say that. Why would you say that?
IO: Okay... what did you say, then?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

He became immediately defensive and refused to discuss his own reads and reasoning when asked. That reads like jumpy scum or town with some kind of chip on its shoulder.

@Irony Tell me if it wasnt me and Max who do you think it would be?

Obviously zemaj is at the top of this list, but I don't have a good partner for him. FoU after all, I think?

Do you regret being passive the entire game? You seem to have sprang into action now.

[Fluffe9911]

Do you regret being passive the entire game? You seem to have sprang into action now.

Nope wish I was a bit more active yesterday but as far as the first 24 hours go 0 regrets.

[Maximum Spin]

You're dangerous and weird.
ToonyMan is also dangerous and weird, but appears to be panicking as day ends, as is good and proper for town who's realizing we don't have anything and the clock is ticking down.

Well, sorry I'm not a panicker. I figure, I did my bit, what happens from here is fate. I definitely don't want to change my vote, I've made my case to the best of my capacity, what else can I do?

If you agree with me that Zemaj is scummy, why are you voting for me?

[IronyOwl]

Well, sorry I'm not a panicker. I figure, I did my bit, what happens from here is fate. I definitely don't want to change my vote, I've made my case to the best of my capacity, what else can I do?

Yeah but you were unapologetically apathetic for most of the game. This doesn't feel like trying your best and what happens happens. More like not really caring about not doing anything and nothing good coming from it.

If you agree with me that Zemaj is scummy, why are you voting for me?

Because Fluffe is also voting for zemaj, which implies they're not both scum. That's it.

[zemaj]

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

Spoiler: Exhibit A (click to show/hide)

<scumlist>

Is your scumlist any different from your playing poorly list?

Hmmm... now that is a loaded question, with a subjective qualifier. 

What makes you say it's loaded?

... the definition?

This is profoundly unhelpful. Make it helpful.

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: Here's my scumlist
IO: Is that just a list of who's playing bad?
zemaj: What a loaded question!
IO: How so?
zemaj: DUH!
IO: What?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

Spoiler: Exhibit B (click to show/hide)

I'll still bite though:  a bit.  Stratified the same, but FoU would be mid with you, Jim would probably be with Toony.  Then bring everyone (and I am not excusing myself from that) down a couple tiers.  Activity has been much lower than I would have expected, and lets face it, not every post is going to be gold, or even lead, so we need some quantity unless we all up the quality post haste.

So you think worse play is directly correlated with likelihood of being scum, with the exception of Jim who's scummier than his play would indicate and FoU who's townier?

Did I say that?  Pretty sure you are the only one who said any such thing.  Please learn the difference between what is stated and what you would like to hear.

How does what you said differ from what I said you said?

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: My playing quality list is the same as my suspicion list except -FoU and +Jim. Then -everyone because they're playing bad.
IO: So your scumlist is your playing poorly list but +FoU and -Jim?
zemaj: Who said that? Only you said that. Don't say that. Why would you say that?
IO: Okay... what did you say, then?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

He became immediately defensive and refused to discuss his own reads and reasoning when asked. That reads like jumpy scum or town with some kind of chip on its shoulder.

I don't see how two interpretations of the same event by the same person that come to the same conclusion are so decisive, but maybe if they were mine own I would see the obviousness of it.

seriously, that is a blatant oversimplification of the interaction where you basically invited me to rank players subjectively, which can really only lead to bad feelings, and mire up the actual discussion, which is already about as thin as it gets, for this setup.  If you had pulled that 18hours earlier, I'd have been all over it, just to get conversation moving.  However, at the time you did, with less than 24hrs left to day end, and with such low participation, its either scum trying to get town in chaos or oblivious wise fool, and I refuse to engage with either.

[ToonyMan]

I'm locking it in. a1s is town. Jim is most likely town.

Mafia are Max/Fluffe or zemaj/FoU.

Irony doesn't fit in here so they're probably town as well, but I would rate them lower than a1s and Jim.

[IronyOwl]

seriously, that is a blatant oversimplification of the interaction where you basically invited me to rank players subjectively, which can really only lead to bad feelings, and mire up the actual discussion, which is already about as thin as it gets, for this setup.  If you had pulled that 18hours earlier, I'd have been all over it, just to get conversation moving.  However, at the time you did, with less than 24hrs left to day end, and with such low participation, its either scum trying to get town in chaos or oblivious wise fool, and I refuse to engage with either.

I asked you to clarify how much of your scum reads were from poor play as opposed to other factors. That's not a distraction guaranteed to hurt people's feelings, that's a fundamental part of how you are playing (or claim to be playing) the game. You also did so at first while claiming I was trying to set you up, so apparently you found some merit and not that much harm in it.

It was only after I asked if I understood you correctly that you seemingly panicked and just refused to talk about it any further.

[zemaj]

seriously, that is a blatant oversimplification of the interaction where you basically invited me to rank players subjectively, which can really only lead to bad feelings, and mire up the actual discussion, which is already about as thin as it gets, for this setup.  If you had pulled that 18hours earlier, I'd have been all over it, just to get conversation moving.  However, at the time you did, with less than 24hrs left to day end, and with such low participation, its either scum trying to get town in chaos or oblivious wise fool, and I refuse to engage with either.

I asked you to clarify how much of your scum reads were from poor play as opposed to other factors. That's not a distraction guaranteed to hurt people's feelings, that's a fundamental part of how you are playing (or claim to be playing) the game. You also did so at first while claiming I was trying to set you up, so apparently you found some merit and not that much harm in it.

It was only after I asked if I understood you correctly that you seemingly panicked and just refused to talk about it any further.

because I thought you would see my point if I gave you what you wanted in brief, without making a big deal of it.  But of course you did... and here we are.  Anyone else want more clarification on this with less than an hour left of day?

[ToonyMan]

@Toony Why do ya keep changing your votes around so much?

I've voted twice.

[Maximum Spin]

Zemaj, right now, if you aren't scum, town loses.
You should be presenting an alternate case.

[Fluffe9911]

@Toony Why do ya keep changing your votes around so much?

I've voted twice.

reads back through the chat so far Oh whoops for some reason had it in my mind ya kept changing it around my bad.

[Jim Groovester]

@Jim Tell me why are you so confident that it can't be Toony and it's unlikely to be Zemaj? They haven't done anything that screams 100% town to me so im not certain of your reasoning

Gut feel mostly.

ToonyMan looks genuine to me and feels like he has stake in the outcome of the end of day. I don't feel as strongly about zemaj as I do about ToonyMan but I feel like he has a decent amount of substance and his understanding of the game state seems to align with mine well enough.

And of course Fluffe9911 starts showing up and in force as soon as I mock him about it.

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

Well it mostly goes back to the start of the first day Zem jokingly says FoU and you are his top scum candidates in a case closed boys meme type way. They joke around for a bit and then Fallacy does a nonserious vote on Zem with the added words of ``He's not scum, I just want to see his reaction.`` all of this feels way too buddy buddy for two town who as far as im aware have never interacted with eachother before. Fallacy simply feels too confident about Zem not being bad that it frankly looks suspicious as hell to me the fact they aint accused eachother at all since does not help my feelings here.

Does it stem all from that one interaction?

It's pretty much what Fluffe says. zemaj and FoU show blind support of each other for reasons I do not understand. It's not to say they could both be town, but it bothers me. Plus the stuff with a1s where they both had them as suspicious which I disagreed with.

I guess I understand this a bit better but I still don't really feel it for myself.

Somebody sell me on zemaj. I feel weird not seeing what people are getting at with him and the proposed zemaj/FoU team.

Spoiler: Exhibit A (click to show/hide)

<scumlist>

Is your scumlist any different from your playing poorly list?

Hmmm... now that is a loaded question, with a subjective qualifier. 

What makes you say it's loaded?

... the definition?

This is profoundly unhelpful. Make it helpful.

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: Here's my scumlist
IO: Is that just a list of who's playing bad?
zemaj: What a loaded question!
IO: How so?
zemaj: DUH!
IO: What?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

Spoiler: Exhibit B (click to show/hide)

I'll still bite though:  a bit.  Stratified the same, but FoU would be mid with you, Jim would probably be with Toony.  Then bring everyone (and I am not excusing myself from that) down a couple tiers.  Activity has been much lower than I would have expected, and lets face it, not every post is going to be gold, or even lead, so we need some quantity unless we all up the quality post haste.

So you think worse play is directly correlated with likelihood of being scum, with the exception of Jim who's scummier than his play would indicate and FoU who's townier?

Did I say that?  Pretty sure you are the only one who said any such thing.  Please learn the difference between what is stated and what you would like to hear.

How does what you said differ from what I said you said?

<bullshit>

no, I am not playing rehtorical games with you with less than 12 hours left to end of day.  We don't have time.  I get it, and I would typically approve, but too little, too late.  Try that shit when we have more time and I'll verbally fence with you an entire dayphase.

zemaj: My playing quality list is the same as my suspicion list except -FoU and +Jim. Then -everyone because they're playing bad.
IO: So your scumlist is your playing poorly list but +FoU and -Jim?
zemaj: Who said that? Only you said that. Don't say that. Why would you say that?
IO: Okay... what did you say, then?
zemaj: Oh no you don't. Nice try! But I'm not falling for your tricks this time. Maybe next game, sucker!

He became immediately defensive and refused to discuss his own reads and reasoning when asked. That reads like jumpy scum or town with some kind of chip on its shoulder.

Okay but this is just some stupid slap fight that didn't need to happen. I don't think there's really a gotcha here.

Jim feels town to me, albeit more interested in blowing himself up than blowing up scum.

NOITA IS VERY FUN

there we go.  Not sure how that makes me more a candidate than Fallacy, but apparently it does.

I guess now would be a pretty good time to describe what your solution to the game looks like.



Going to go with Maximum Spin. If Max flips scum, I think I shoot Fluffe9911 and IronyOwl next. If Max is town, I think I shoot zemaj and FallacyofUrist and then IronyOwl.

There's a lot more thinking I should do about this decision but not really enough time. Max/Fluffe9911 and zemaj/FoU as dichotomies for scum teams doesn't feel completely right to me, but the day is ending and I kind of want to do other stuff today than play mafia (like play Noita). I'll have to give my elimination list some thought.