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Reality, The Universe and the World. Which will save us from AI?

Reality
- 13 (65%)
Universe
- 4 (20%)
The World
- 3 (15%)

Total Members Voted: 20


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Author Topic: What will save us from AI? Reality, the Universe or The World $ Place your bet.  (Read 49569 times)

Frumple

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The trouble is that AI doesn't act sapient except on a very surface level. It's an animatronic of a duck: it could fool someone from a distance, or as a still image, but up close and in motion it's blatantly not the real thing.
The basically eternal problem with that sort of heuristic is that there's "real things" that fail it just as well, heh. There's more or less no test of intelligence/sapience/whatever that excludes non-humans (ai included) that doesn't have some subset of humanity that's also incapable of passing it, but we (generally!) still consider those "failures" to be sapient.

... though corollary to that, our treatment of intelligence and intelligent beings is, like, wildly inconsistent and hypocritical, so what's adding yet another group of critters we play fuckfuck games in relation to on that issue to the pile? At least it's a lot harder to skin AIs and wear their flesh as a hat while we eat their children in a high priced meal :V

With AI we're at least mostly just enslaving them to make porn and slaughtering them en masse as an optimization method. Could be worse, we could be using them as food on top of that like we do most other things.
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eerr

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so there's this parrot, he learns what people say and he repeats it.

two million copies of this parrot are made, and they are all slightly different.
These parrots are then exposed to two billion lines of people saying things.

Most of these parrots produce results worse than the original bird, at saying what people say.
a bunch mimic the person at about the same tic.
And a few of these parrots say something that to a person, are more similar to what a real person would say.
These select few parrots are then copied and made slightly different, but also mixed together, to produce new changed parrots.

this process is repeated a few times, and eventually a parrot that can mimic human speech almost like a real person is produced.

Is that parrot intelligent?
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MaxTheFox

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The trouble is that AI doesn't act sapient except on a very surface level. It's an animatronic of a duck: it could fool someone from a distance, or as a still image, but up close and in motion it's blatantly not the real thing.
The basically eternal problem with that sort of heuristic is that there's "real things" that fail it just as well, heh. There's more or less no test of intelligence/sapience/whatever that excludes non-humans (ai included) that doesn't have some subset of humanity that's also incapable of passing it, but we (generally!) still consider those "failures" to be sapient.

... though corollary to that, our treatment of intelligence and intelligent beings is, like, wildly inconsistent and hypocritical, so what's adding yet another group of critters we play fuckfuck games in relation to on that issue to the pile? At least it's a lot harder to skin AIs and wear their flesh as a hat while we eat their children in a high priced meal :V

With AI we're at least mostly just enslaving them to make porn and slaughtering them en masse as an optimization method. Could be worse, we could be using them as food on top of that like we do most other things.
I care about sapience on a per-species basis. That's why, for example, highly brain-damaged humans are still sapient. Arbitrary? Yes. But chasing non-arbitrariness is how you get LessWrong brainrot. The human brain is physically not capable of not being arbitrary.

A "species" of AI would be a specific model. E.g GPT-3.5 would be a species, GPT-4 would be another, Stable Diffusion XL another... and none of them fit the criteria, so none of them are sapient. For the record, I put that in quotes because they don't meet the definitions of life, much less sapience, so whining about them being "slaughtered" is just goofy. There are ethical problems with AI but it lies in how corpos use it. Couldn't care less about training itself. You can't enslave something that's not a person. I'd rather them work in dangerous factories and mines so that real people don't have to, it's a better application for it than art or writing.

It's like arguing that running Dwarf Fortress worldgen is unethical because thousands of dwarves, humans, elves, goblins, kobolds die in wars. They were never alive in the first place.

so there's this parrot, he learns what people say and he repeats it.

two million copies of this parrot are made, and they are all slightly different.
These parrots are then exposed to two billion lines of people saying things.

Most of these parrots produce results worse than the original bird, at saying what people say.
a bunch mimic the person at about the same tic.
And a few of these parrots say something that to a person, are more similar to what a real person would say.
These select few parrots are then copied and made slightly different, but also mixed together, to produce new changed parrots.

this process is repeated a few times, and eventually a parrot that can mimic human speech almost like a real person is produced.

Is that parrot intelligent?
Not unless it actually understands what it talks about, and can do other things that humans do besides talking. But if those were somehow achieved, sure I'd consider it intelligent, but that's not what AI is capable of. That's my point. "It's indistinguishable from a human" is a red herring because it IS distinguishable by anyone who interacts with it deeper than a surface level.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 11:21:32 pm by MaxTheFox »
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Strongpoint

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We do inherit knowledge though. People come into this world with concepts that help them perceive the world.
humans have concepts that are pretty universal, but we have this before we learn to process the exact nature of what it means for everything else.
The young naturally develop these concepts into, the difference between man and woman, fairness between people, fears.
Not all people start with the same concepts, and they lead to vastly different conclusions later in life.
But those concepts are there.

Citation needed. In the form of a biology and\or psychology article

We really don't. Sure, there are instincts but it is doubtful if they really count as knowledge. Instinctively closing our eyes when something flies in their direction is not knowledge that getting things in your eyes is bad. Instincts are pre-written behavior programs (simple or complex) that animals do without understanding, it is like having some hard-coded stuff added to an AI model.
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Maximum Spin

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There is definitely inherent knowledge, or what I would argue counts as knowledge, in the genetic basis of the human brain, but as far as I can tell it's limited to either really basic epistemic premises without which it's mathematically provable that you cannot have a learning system in the first place, like "effects follow causes" and "{p, pq} :: q", or instinctive imperatives that respond to specific stimuli and can be conceived of as knowledge but probably aren't encoded in any way we would normally understand as knowledge - like how "experience reward upon tasting sugar" isn't really knowledge that sugar is food or even that sugar is something that exists in the world and not just the vague pulsing of sensory neurons. Eerr's examples are maybe the latter type at best.

chasing non-arbitrariness is how you get LessWrong brainrot.
Hahaha, I'm glad someone else said it.
(Although, personally, I have to disagree that LessWrongers are sapient.)
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eerr

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We do inherit knowledge though. People come into this world with concepts that help them perceive the world.
humans have concepts that are pretty universal, but we have this before we learn to process the exact nature of what it means for everything else.
The young naturally develop these concepts into, the difference between man and woman, fairness between people, fears.
Not all people start with the same concepts, and they lead to vastly different conclusions later in life.
But those concepts are there.

Citation needed. In the form of a biology and\or psychology article

We really don't. Sure, there are instincts but it is doubtful if they really count as knowledge. Instinctively closing our eyes when something flies in their direction is not knowledge that getting things in your eyes is bad. Instincts are pre-written behavior programs (simple or complex) that animals do without understanding, it is like having some hard-coded stuff added to an AI model.
I mostly just wanted to correct a misconception, rather than follow his line of reasoning.
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McTraveller

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Right so those "built-in" things like causality, instinct, etc. are not "knowledge" inasmuch as they are mere physical constraints.  When you connect a beam to a fulcrum it will scale force and displacement according to conservation laws, but it doesn't "know" the conservation laws.  This is what is inherited - the "structure" of the machine.

Knowledge is that which derives from and explains the structure.  So while text-to-image is cool, I think a closer hint at intelligence is image-to-text. Things like "explain this image" or "explain this concept" or - more importantly - "apply this concept."

Generally we can more easily explain what intelligence isn't than what it is - even with the informal description of "that is unintelligent behavior."

Essentially I think "intelligence" will come to be defined as a descriptor of something being "not wrote behavior" or "that which just doesn't follow a rule because it has no other choice but to follow a rule."  In other words - behavior that nominally follows rules (e.g., traffic rules) but can violate those rules in specific situations to achieve better outcomes as perceived by the actor.
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anewaname

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Some day, the condition of sapience will be recognized as a relative condition and not as an absolute condition.
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eerr

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I guess I did say knowledge... whoops.

I should be more careful about adopting terms used by other people.
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Maximum Spin

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Right so those "built-in" things like causality, instinct, etc. are not "knowledge" inasmuch as they are mere physical constraints.  When you connect a beam to a fulcrum it will scale force and displacement according to conservation laws, but it doesn't "know" the conservation laws.  This is what is inherited - the "structure" of the machine.
No, no, causality isn't a physical constraint on the system. It's possible to build an acausal mind in a causal universe, there just wouldn't be any point. Causality is encoded into the structure of the brain in basically the same way any other knowledge is, as the conditions under which neurons connect. The brain "knows" not to conclude that A caused B if A came after B, but, unlike a beam disobeying the conservation of momentum, it's perfectly CAPABLE of concluding that and can do so in some disease scenarios.
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McTraveller

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I think we're saying the same thing - the mechanisms of the brain are "hard coded" to generally recognize causality, they don't "understand" it.  The neurons just fire when A follows B or whatever.  The point is this is not "knowledge" this is just a machine doing what it can do within the limitations of physics.  Sure if disease "breaks the machine" then it's different.

I suppose you can call this "knowledge", but it's not a canonical use of the term. I mean chlorophyll doesn't "know how to convert sunlight to sugars" - it just does it when the conditions are present.
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Maximum Spin

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I think we're saying the same thing - the mechanisms of the brain are "hard coded" to generally recognize causality, they don't "understand" it.  The neurons just fire when A follows B or whatever.  The point is this is not "knowledge" this is just a machine doing what it can do within the limitations of physics.  Sure if disease "breaks the machine" then it's different.
But "the neurons just fire" under some given conditions is how you know anything. You know that grass is green because some neurons associated with sensory information from certain wavelengths of light just fire after being stimulated by other neurons that were turned on when you recognized the shape of the letters in the word "grass". If that's not knowledge, nothing is.
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McTraveller

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Ah ok - I think what we may be touching on is that I think knowledge is emergent from the mechanical operation of the neurons - it's not inherent in the mechanism.  That is, the brain is a machine that, when operated in a certain way, can gain knowledge. I don't think the machine "is" knowledge, which is what is implied by saying knowledge is inherited (because only the structure of the machine is inherited).

Now - I will also admit that this may be partially true at best (from an ontological standpoint).  It could very well be that there is a mixture of both structural and emergent characteristics.
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Maximum Spin

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I would describe knowledge as being encoded in the structure of the machine so that, once interpreted (in this case by hooking the neurons up to a bunch of sensory and motor apparatus that work on the appropriate encoding), the knowledge can be extracted in the form of action - in the same way that information is encoded in the magnetic structure of a disk in order to be interpreted by the proper equipment. If we had a system that formed a new disk from scratch such that it would crystallize with (some parts of) the same pattern of magnetic domains as a master disk, with no need to be re-recorded, then I would argue that it makes sense to say the new disk has inherited that data, too. Your definition seems pretty myopic to me - I don't think that the discourse of "emergent properties" is very useful. Anything interesting is emergent, and certainly the verb "to know" implies the act of interpretation, but we can still talk about the knowledge, as a noun, existing in some encoded form. Or to put it another way, a message encrypted with a one-time pad cannot be made useful without the act of decryption, but the message still exists.
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McTraveller

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This almost sounds like a variant of "if a tree falls in a forest but nobody's around, does it make a sound": In this case, it's "if information is encoded in energy or matter, but nothing understands it, is it knowledge"?

I would perhaps grant that it's definitely information which we could perhaps call "latent knowledge", or "potential knowledge", but it isn't quite the same thing as "active knowledge" perhaps?
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