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Reality, The Universe and the World. Which will save us from AI?

Reality
- 13 (68.4%)
Universe
- 3 (15.8%)
The World
- 3 (15.8%)

Total Members Voted: 19


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Author Topic: What will save us from AI? Reality, the Universe or The World $ Place your bet.  (Read 26600 times)

King Zultan

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lemon10 seems to be the only person in this tread that thinks AI will be anything more than an over hyped tool.
*Sigh* Yeah, fair enough. I really should worry stop worrying all this stuff, it ain't healthy.
There's nothing wrong with being excited about new technology, but I will say that I've always noticed that these things never bring the world changing effects they claim when they finally get released, sure things might be different but not near as much as they claim it will.
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Starver

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Also what is LitRPG?
I was going to point at good old Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, but first checked and found an 'explanation' that actually says not that. ;)

Not really seen much (any?) of this current genre, but I was avidly reading basically everything in the SF-shelving of the local library, during the Niven-era, so definitely read those 'precursor' versions.



I'm seeing a lot of 'App ads' trying to get me to subscribe to FanLit-ish library apps, apparently populated by tales that are 'first-person romance' types. Sometimes lycanthropically-themed! I'm not sure whether they're properly 'commissioned' writings, or ripped from various self-published story sites without permission, for as many short 'click bucks' as they can get before someone twiggs and shuts them down. But I could see at least some AI use.

The softcore-titillating illustrations acting as background to the scrolling 'example snippet[1]' could easily be AIed, or chosen from multiple AI attempts to discount the "too many fingers" issue sneaking in, while (pseudo-)procedurally-created stories derived from a similarly-themed training corpus. If I'm any judge, wide-ranging adherence to consistent plot is secondary to fleeting textual imagery (and the odd illustrative imagery). There could certainly be enough 'cheap' output to tempt the intended catchment of audience with a plethora of fairly derivative facsimiles, if it's just such a transient product that they're looking for. (Which is not to say that there aren't honest and dedicated and not minimally curated collections, out there. I just think that the niche of supply that I'm describing leans more towards this idea than others. Like the already copious "match three(+)"/"merge two" games could be mass produced even more than they seem to be right now, if someone unleashes the ability of AI-artistry to creating ever more 'novel' thematic variations as a container to what seems to be a purely numeric and theoretically unending 'entertainment'.)

[1] If they're even more of a scam than I think they are, they might never have any 'content' beyond the bait-ad.
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Strongpoint

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AI does worry me in many aspects.

AI-chats are addictive for lonely depressed people, AI-(boy)girlfriends, too. Sure they are not like real people but our brains are great at suspension of disbelief.

Photo and video fakes are an increasingly large problem. Not that I think that we can reach the point at which AI fakes can fool professionals with tools but propaganda doesn't target professionals or people who listen to professionals. Also, it will make it easy to dismiss real videos and photos as fakes.

I am worried that the quality of cheap products will fall. Why make a proper cartoon with some idea for "dumb kids" if we can generate an AI mess for a fraction of the cost? Why would a club invest in good dance music when AI can generate something passable that drunk people will dance to anyway? Why produce good tasteful erotica when many will just as happily jerk off to "generate me a hot lesbian sex scene between a MILF and her busty step-daughter"?


But no, I don't think that, for example, we can get an LLM that can GM a Bay12 multiplayer forum game without it breaking apart and being filled with mechanical and plot holes. Even if we train it on all forum games in existence and pour millions into training it. Such tasks require properties LLMs lack.

Can it happen with some major breakthroughs and new type(s) of AI? Perhaps, but why should we assume that major breakthrough of this nature will happen?
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McTraveller

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That's one interesting thing about state-of-the-art "AI" - it can't decide what to do. It only and always just responds to prompts.
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MaxTheFox

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Also what is LitRPG?
I was going to point at good old Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, but first checked and found an 'explanation' that actually says not that. ;)

Not really seen much (any?) of this current genre, but I was avidly reading basically everything in the SF-shelving of the local library, during the Niven-era, so definitely read those 'precursor' versions.
I love sci-fi but I straight up don't get LitRPGs. Why would I read about a world that acts like a video game, taken seriously? If I wanted a computer RPG I'd play one. Not read what amounts to a text-based let's-play of a nonexistent game.

AI does worry me in many aspects.

AI-chats are addictive for lonely depressed people, AI-(boy)girlfriends, too. Sure they are not like real people but our brains are great at suspension of disbelief.

Photo and video fakes are an increasingly large problem. Not that I think that we can reach the point at which AI fakes can fool professionals with tools but propaganda doesn't target professionals or people who listen to professionals. Also, it will make it easy to dismiss real videos and photos as fakes.

I am worried that the quality of cheap products will fall. Why make a proper cartoon with some idea for "dumb kids" if we can generate an AI mess for a fraction of the cost? Why would a club invest in good dance music when AI can generate something passable that drunk people will dance to anyway? Why produce good tasteful erotica when many will just as happily jerk off to "generate me a hot lesbian sex scene between a MILF and her busty step-daughter"?


But no, I don't think that, for example, we can get an LLM that can GM a Bay12 multiplayer forum game without it breaking apart and being filled with mechanical and plot holes. Even if we train it on all forum games in existence and pour millions into training it. Such tasks require properties LLMs lack.

Can it happen with some major breakthroughs and new type(s) of AI? Perhaps, but why should we assume that major breakthrough of this nature will happen?
Yeah that's my point. But to be fair, look at the stuff that was on YouTube kids channels before AI, and after AI. I honestly see no difference in quality. Hence my cheap beer analogy.

That's one interesting thing about state-of-the-art "AI" - it can't decide what to do. It only and always just responds to prompts.
Agency is how I'd consider an AI to be sapient. LLMs do not have agency.
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Criptfeind

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I was going to point at good old Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, but first checked and found an 'explanation' that actually says not that. ;)

Not really seen much (any?) of this current genre, but I was avidly reading basically everything in the SF-shelving of the local library, during the Niven-era, so definitely read those 'precursor' versions.

This genera seem to be practically epidemic to self published online literature, and broadly speaking it's the worst absolute most garbage writing you'll ever read. And, seemingly, very popular. By itself I don't see anything wrong with it, I could see a good story being written in a world with video game mechanics, but something about it attracts the worst authors and laziest writing. I suspect that there's a lot a people reading this stuff though that get something from "numbers go up" power fantasys. I guess the same type of person who salivated over the increasing power levels in dragon ball z.

To stay on topic a bit, I think AI will struggle in this genre because it's writing is probably too coherent and complex for the average litrpg reader. More seriously, I think AI are not far from the level of a lot of even seemingly fairly popular online writing. If it had a bit of increased coherence I think it could write an average litrpg already, and I'd bet it's already possible to use it for most of the writings in these stories alongside an author working to keep it on some sorta track.

I don't think it'll be good for a good long while, but idk how good you need to be to make a bit of money writing online, maybe these authors aren't making anything. But if they are, I think using AI to increase the flow of low quality litrpgs is not far away.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 09:44:14 am by Criptfeind »
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MaxTheFox

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Yeah I very much implied that most of that genre might as well be made by AI and probably increase in quality. And they do make money off it. They get a lot more views and Patreon subs than people with actually original settings.

But it's honestly a fad like vampire novels and teen dystopia novels. It's just that the fully-digital era means it's even easier to crank out dross. Doesn't really increase its longevity.
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Strongpoint

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AI writing coherent scenes is not a problem anymore. I can task a sufficiently large LLM to write, let's say, a space combat and it will write a decent coherent one, maybe even without major contradictions within the scene.

But can it tie to the rest of a larger story? Can it direct combat in a way that will benefit overall plot? Correctly take into account established traits of the captains of the ships? Understand the intricacies of space combat in this exact universe?

No, not really. And it is not a matter of bigger context window sizes or model sizes.
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lemon10

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No, not really. And it is not a matter of bigger context window sizes or model sizes.
Right, I agree with this. A naive scaling will result in minor gains across every category, but will not result in massive fundamental breakthroughs. (eg. trying to go from GPT 4->5 just by making it bigger would require a huge increase in scale).
Long output tasks will not be solved just by making it bigger either.
What will make it better is said compute increase in combination with all the other stuff and learning that’s going on.
Quote
(8:45) Performance on complex tasks follows log scores. It gets it right one time in a thousand, then one in a hundred, then one in ten. So there is a clear window where the thing is in practice useless, but you know it soon won’t be. And we are in that window on many tasks. This goes double if you have complex multi-step tasks. If you have a three-step task and are getting each step right one time in a thousand, the full task is one in a billion, but you are not so far being able to in practice do the task.

(9:15) The model being presented here is predicting scary capabilities jumps in the future. LLMs can actually (unreliably) do all the subtasks, including identifying what the subtasks are, for a wide variety of complex tasks, but they fall over on subtasks too often and we do not know how to get the models to correct for that. But that is not so far from the whole thing coming together, and that would include finding scaffolding that lets the model identify failed steps and redo them until they work, if which tasks fail is sufficiently non-deterministic from the core difficulties.
Long output tasks will not spontaneously get better, what will make them better is the people working constantly to make them better at that exact thing altering things like the data formatting, the training structure, the shape and functions of their neural net architecture, hyperparameter values, ect.
This isn’t hypothetical or just copium either, the size of outputs AI can coherently create has been ballooning over the past few years and shows no sign of stopping or slowing down.
But can it tie to the rest of a larger story? Can it direct combat in a way that will benefit overall plot? Correctly take into account established traits of the captains of the ships? Understand the intricacies of space combat in this exact universe?
Yes to all of the above.
It can’t write a whole book properly AFAIK, but if you just tell it to write a few paragraphs or pages? Yeah, like many other “AI can’t do this” stuff once it gets properly defined it turns out it can in fact, already do it.
But no, I don't think that, for example, we can get an LLM that can GM a Bay12 multiplayer forum game without it breaking apart and being filled with mechanical and plot holes. Even if we train it on all forum games in existence and pour millions into training it. Such tasks require properties LLMs lack.

Can it happen with some major breakthroughs and new type(s) of AI? Perhaps, but why should we assume that major breakthrough of this nature will happen?
No, it requires properties that just aren’t powerful enough yet. The difference between being able to do something at 30% and 90% is the difference between uselessness and (with frameworking) actually doing the task fairly reliably.
In practice the difference between 30% and 90% aren’t actually that far off and the fact that they mess up a rule every other post or forget some key setting detail isn’t that far off from them doing so every ten posts, then every hundred posts, then them just not doing so at all.
I would be confidently willing to bet that GPT-6 could run a forum game without issues, but obviously the tech is nowhere near there yet even if you tried pouring hundreds of millions in. (I could even see late in the cycle GPT-5 equivalent AI doing so, but that's much more iffy).
Perhaps, but why should we assume that major breakthrough of this nature will happen?
So they really don’t *need* a ton of breakthroughs (E: Well fundamental breakthroughs that is, they still need a ton more of the minor types of breakthroughs we get every day) (again, a lot of this stuff is there, they just need to make it better).
But the thing that makes me confident that there will be breakthroughs is 1) The fact that new breakthroughs coming out literally every day which is at the least partially demonstrative of our position on the S-curve, and 2) Neural nets and a lot of modern AI architecture is designed to mimic neurons (eg. even some of the circuits are the same such as those for addition), and we already know that neurons can do all of this.
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A growing body of research is making some surprising discoveries about insects. Honeybees have emotional ups and downs. Bumblebees play with toys. Cockroaches have personalities, recognize their relatives and team up to make decisions.
You don’t need to have a human size brain to have agency or time recognition or emotions or a lot of other “AI can’t” stuff out there, even tiny insect brains can do much of the stuff.
The idea that neural nets (and by extension AI) are fundamentally unable to do things at the level of an insect and that these will prove huge roadblocks feels a bit funky to me.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2024, 09:35:07 pm by lemon10 »
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Strongpoint

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In practice the difference between 30% and 90% aren’t actually that far off and the fact that they mess up a rule every other post or forget some key setting detail isn’t that far off from them doing so every ten posts, then every hundred posts, then them just not doing so at all.

You assume a linear and unlimited progression of the LLM technology. For me, this sounds as absurd as

In practice, the difference between a diesel engine with a coefficient of performance 30% and a 90% one isn't actually that far off

Or even In practice, the difference between going 90% of the speed of light and 110% isn't actually that far off


Also, please, please show me an existing LLM that can "mess up a rule every other post or forget some key setting detail" in a multiplayer complex forum game instead of producing an incoherent mess. I'd LOVE to see it. Like we are taking an opening post of any bay 12 multiplayer game, feeding it players' input given in this game and compare what it will spew out with an actual second post of the game.

Being able to GM me in a single typical simple game (usually fantasy kingdom management) is among the first things I try with every new LLM and (probably because I don't actually play but test and nitpick) I never was impressed. Yes, there is progress every time but it is no human that actually has a setting in mind. Not even close.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2024, 12:52:23 am by Strongpoint »
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MaxTheFox

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Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. What will you do on the day of reckoning, when disaster comes from afar?

King Zultan

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Also what is LitRPG?
I was going to point at good old Choose-Your-Own-Adventure books, but first checked and found an 'explanation' that actually says not that. ;)

Not really seen much (any?) of this current genre, but I was avidly reading basically everything in the SF-shelving of the local library, during the Niven-era, so definitely read those 'precursor' versions.
I love sci-fi but I straight up don't get LitRPGs. Why would I read about a world that acts like a video game, taken seriously? If I wanted a computer RPG I'd play one. Not read what amounts to a text-based let's-play of a nonexistent game.
Now that I know what they are, I don't think I've encountered any and they don't really sound like that interesting of a thing I mean if I want to play a game I'll just play a game.
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The Lawyer opens a briefcase. It's full of lemons, the justice fruit only lawyers may touch.
Make sure not to step on any errant blood stains before we find our LIFE EXTINGUSHER.
but anyway, if you'll excuse me, I need to commit sebbaku.
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Can I have the sword when you’re done?

Starver

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spoiler=Two relevant xkcds-- not just to AI but to the general mindset here
...I already had a few of them in mind
https://www.xkcd.com/1007/ - shows where a logistic curve might be more apt than a logarithmic one, sometimes
https://www.xkcd.com/1281/ - sometimes not actually necessarily wrong (nor the title text)
https://www.xkcd.com/2892/ - a problem with all such extrapolations
https://www.xkcd.com/2914/ - let's call this, in AI context, the "not-uncanny ridge"


(Also I had in mind something about both Black Swans and Grey Rhinos, that might be needed to fulfil the promises, but they're respectively the unknown unknowns and unknown knowns...)
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Strongpoint

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Spent few hours playing around on udio.com generating music. It makes fun stuff even if it doesn't ollow prompts that well... Yep, the industry will change a lot. And I am... happy. I think the music industry is very corrupt, soulless, and unethical. It benefits recording companies and talentless musicians at the expense of actual talent.  It is also the industry in which 95 years of copyright hurt the development of the art the most.

I really don't mind Sony getting fewer millions. I welcome more public-domain music. Even if I am aware of some negative effects for actual artists and worried that the overall quality of music people listen to will fall even lower.
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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!

Strongpoint

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They ought to be pitied! They are already on a course for self-destruction! They do not need help from us. We need to redress our wounds, help our people, rebuild our cities!
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