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[EuchreJack]

OK guys, can someone explain to me the logic of.... attacking the outer sarcophagus of the Chornobyl 4th reactor with a drone?

No. I kinda understand why. We probably have no air defense there and it is a step to force us to move some there... but WTF?

It's classic KGB psyops. It creates the fear of "look what we can do".

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky is wise to remind the world that Russia doesn't give a damn about safety in Europe, and that Russian agents have poisoned Europeans before.

[anewaname]

I didn't see any information indicating it was more than just one drone. That could be intentional so they could say it was an accident.
It could be an attempt to start nuclear-terror news-cycles, in the same way the use of the Oreshnik some months ago did, and the Russian threats before that.
It could also be bait, in the hopes that Ukraine will attack an active Russian reactor.
It could be the start of a false-flag operation where Russia will follow with self-sabotage to an active Russian plant and blame Ukraine.

If you consider the possible paths to "peace", Putin wants Ukraine to have security guarantees that will fail. Ukraine wants Nato or nukes, because they recognize that anything less than Nato protection will be too weak to last more than a couple of years of politics. So, Ukraine probably realizes nukes are their only option now because of trump... so Russia raising the nuclear-terror news-cycles could be followed by "cease talks are failing because Ukraine wants nukes because they want a nuclear war"...

If you want to know the intent, you really need to know who's orders caused that strike. If Putin approved the orders, then it is for the nuke-war-news-cycle and to spoil Ukraine's future deterrence options within the peace talks.

[martinuzz]

Russia needs to be nuked before they create a second Tsjernobyl

[Naturegirl1999]

Russia needs to be nuked before they create a second Tsjernobyl

How about not potentially creating nuclear winter, yeah? I’d rather we not irradiate the atmosphere

[EuchreJack]

If the world leaders could just keep their fucking boots on Putin's fucking neck, then Russia will eventually be forced to sell the uranium in their nukes to pay their fucking bills...

[Strongpoint]

Not trading with Russia would be enough...

Also, you don't need to nuke Russia first, did you see how effective their air defense is? A fleet of modern aircrafts and a lot of cruise missiles can devastate everything of value rather quickly. Nukes are the weapon of the weaker side.


PS. world with an irradiated atmosphere is preferable to the world in which Russia dominates

[Il Palazzo]

That's a false dichotomy, though. A world in which Russia dominates >its neighbours< is way more preferable to most people than a global nuclear war.

[anewaname]

The world leaders will not stay united because there are those among them who want to exercise absolute power without democratic support, and there is currently real risk of more far-right groups gaining power in Europe and then cementing their control through meddling as Orban seems to have done.

Ukraine cannot depend on anyone else to back them up with *enough* conventional force and manpower to keep Russia from coming back for more land. They do need nukes.

Nuclear stalemate is Ukraine's only possible future that doesn't involve Russians closing off the borders of Ukraine, doing purges, and rounding up people for the labor camps that will be formed to clean up the war zones. Consider the example of North Korea, who gained nukes and a missile delivery system; who is going to invade them now?

Here is the State Department's blurb on the Russian filtration camps. This is the same thing Germany did to Czech and Hungarian peoples, etc, and the reason why people originating from east of Germany ended up west of Germany, and vice versus.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I was facing the option of watching everyone in a 400 mile radius get pushed through a "units_enslaved - units_murdered = units_converted" formula, I'd want my side to have nukes too. And Ukraine only avoided that by stopping and then rolling back the Russians.

[Strongpoint]

That's a false dichotomy, though. A world in which Russia dominates >its neighbours< is way more preferable to most people than a global nuclear war.

But it won't work this way. It is exactly like saying "Let Hitler get a chunk of Czechoslovakia is far better than repeating the Great War"

Should Russia conquer Ukraine it will use captured resources to go further. Then further. Then even further.

edit:

speaking about using captured resources - Chinese companies "developing" Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine

[Starver]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Interesting to note that one of the locations on that map actually is on what has (historically) been called the "Gulf Of America".

Which is a bit cross-thread, I know, but it amused me.

[Il Palazzo]

That's a false dichotomy, though. A world in which Russia dominates >its neighbours< is way more preferable to most people than a global nuclear war.

But it won't work this way. It is exactly like saying "Let Hitler get a chunk of Czechoslovakia is far better than repeating the Great War"

Should Russia conquer Ukraine it will use captured resources to go further. Then further. Then even further.

It won't ever conquer the States, China, India, the global south in general, or most of Europe. It's a third rate regional power now. In its wettest dreams it gets back to its Soviet borders, while you're trying to pitch a nuclear winter here. If it succeeds, our region is gonna be fucked, again, but the majority of the world won't register much of a difference.
I'm not discovering the wheel here - surely you understand this perfectly well. So I'm going to chalk your comment up as a frustrated hyperbole (with which I can sympathise).

[EuchreJack]

The current US President walking away from Europe saying "Not my problem" doesn't help.

The mines however are a solid strategy for Ukraine (and Europe, frankly): Saudi Arabia wasn't conquered, and America killed the last guy who threatened them (Saddam Hussein, the risk to Saudi Arabia's lucrative oil fields was the red line he crossed that drew America's scorn).

[Strongpoint]

It won't ever conquer the States, China, India, the global south in general, or most of Europe. It's a third rate regional power now. In its wettest dreams it gets back to its Soviet borders, while you're trying to pitch a nuclear winter here. If it succeeds, our region is gonna be fucked, again, but the majority of the world won't register much of a difference.

No. Just no. Cancer tumor will grow and spread metastases around. It won't go - OK, I reached a rational size, let's not attack healthy strong organs, it is time to stop and be content with what I got. Sure, it is not like Russia can manage a naval invasion of the US or something like that. But there are other ways to wage war - proxy wars in 3rd countries, getting your people in power, sabotage, propaganda, support of extremists, etc.

If USA went for - well, whatever, Soviets can't launch an amphibious assault against New York, let's go isolationist, have a modest military budget, and don't do hostile intelligence against the USSR... We would have worldwide communism by now. But the USSR was far less imperialistic than modern Russia.

[Il Palazzo]

Do you remember you're pitching nuclear holocaust as the alternative here?

[Strongpoint]

Do you remember you're pitching nuclear holocaust as the alternative here?

Yes. At some point, world will have to start waging war back. And it means risking that Russia will use nukes. If you don't fight back you lose even if you are far stronger. If you do fight back against a country with nukes you risk a nuclear war.  After all the US did risk nuclear war during the Cuban crisis, they could just fold.