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[nenjin]

Pakistan is destabilizing as we speak due to a water crisis among other things. They have, what, over a few hundred nukes? If Pakistan collapses, all those nukes now go on the black market and proliferation by unstable actors becomes a much more likely scenario.

I'm not going to speak to the overall ease of access to nukes. But when states with nuclear arms become failed states with nuclear arms it becomes a lot more likely.

[Maximum Spin]

Sure, but that has nothing to do with Russia and Ukraine?

[EuchreJack]

Do not forget the part where we are disallowed to use the shiny Western stuff to strike across the border. Sure, we kinda started production of our own drones and even produce some cruise missiles but we have no realistic way to mess with Russian logistics\industry like they do.

Yeah. I think I said it before - the Western help, with few exceptions, seems designed more to make the public feel good about themselves and less concerned with actual needs on the ground.

I said this a bit ago in other places and got shouted down a little — and I agree, it seems fairly scattered and haphazard.

Welcome to Politics...

[EuchreJack]

Pakistan is destabilizing as we speak due to a water crisis among other things. They have, what, over a few hundred nukes? If Pakistan collapses, all those nukes now go on the black market and proliferation by unstable actors becomes a much more likely scenario.

I'm not going to speak to the overall ease of access to nukes. But when states with nuclear arms become failed states with nuclear arms it becomes a lot more likely.

This may be a bit of a tangent, mind discussing Pakistan somewhere else? I mean, it certainly sounds like something worth discussing, just not here.

[Il Palazzo]

  It's in response to an argument raised raised in the preceding post. It's not trying to start a discussion about Pakistan.

[Maximum Spin]

It's in response to an argument raised raised in the preceding post. It's not trying to start a discussion about Pakistan.

It's not actually responsive to anything, though. Like... okay, Pakistan, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything I said?

[heydude6]

Second, your argument can easily apply to every instance of a nuclear power bullying non-nuclear countries with impunity since, well, the first time; and nuclear proliferation hasn't happened recently. Why not the Russian-Georgian war, or the Second Chechen war, or the Gulf wars, or the Syrian war, or the US invasion of Afghanistan? Why not Israel and Palestine? Of course, non-nuclear states still bully each other at will based on who is stronger, and have since prehistory.

Bah! I wrote an entire post arguing against your point, but after looking at a world map, the only countries that could conceivably benefit from getting nukes are the Middle East and Moldova. The Middle East should have been motivated by Afghanistan and etc. but the fact that they haven't is evidence in your favour.

Perhaps Random Dragon was wrong after all. Can't say I'm happy to hear that news though. The Ukraine war got more press than all the other wars, but at the end of the day it seems like the West is content to just let Russia grind away at Ukraine until it is dust.

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
NATO’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

[Maximum Spin]

the only countries that could conceivably benefit from getting nukes are the Middle East and Moldova.

Uh. What?

Like, you know there's been about a coup a day in central Africa lately, right?

Perhaps Random Dragon was wrong after all.

I never saw that post before but... it looks completely nutty. Just totally outside reality.

[heydude6]

the only countries that could conceivably benefit from getting nukes are the Middle East and Moldova.

Uh. What?

Like, you know there's been about a coup a day in central Africa lately, right?

Yes. It's very tragic, I found the Niger one to be particularly interesting. It's been 2 months and ECOWAS still hasn't invaded.

Regardless though, what is a coup leader supposed to do with nukes? It seems like the main threats they face are internal rather than external ones. I find it hard to see how nuking one's own territory will help you stay in power.

I can of course imagine tinpot dictators wanting nukes, but that seems to be power for power's sake. I don't think the outcome of the ukraine war is going to affect Africa's decision to pursue nukes whatsoever. I only mentioned the nations that I did due to their proximity to Russia.

[King Zultan]

Regardless though, what is a coup leader supposed to do with nukes? It seems like the main threats they face are internal rather than external ones. I find it hard to see how nuking one's own territory will help you stay in power.

He could use them as a threat, a you attack me I'll blow the entire place up kind of thing, I mean what use is the territory to a coup leader if he dies so he might as well take it with him to keep the other guy from having it.

[Random_Dragon]

Perhaps Random Dragon was wrong after all. Can't say I'm happy to hear that news though. The Ukraine war got more press than all the other wars, but at the end of the day it seems like the West is content to just let Russia grind away at Ukraine until it is dust.

Oh if only I could say I was wrong. The continued extent of how fuck-all good what we're doing has done to actually stop Putin's Small Penis Misadventure means we've blown right past ending 1 (functionally the only one that qualifies as a Good End).

So far we're at the stage of hoping for Putin to commit suicide by multiple gunshots to the back of the head so we can unlock ending 2 (maybe good but a lot of fuckery is in our future).

But if this shit keeps grinding Ukraine down and the world doesn't get Article 5'd in the process, by the time we're falling ass-first into Ending 7 (the one that makes us end up wishing nuclear war will just fucking end it already by the time it finally comes) we won't have time to really recognize that we're officially in the new era of imperialism and militarism, and the eventual prospect of nuclear proliferation, until it's well and solidly too little, too late.

I'd say the fact that various other countries have decided now is the ideal time to begin starting shit is a bad sign that implies we might be getting ready to fast-track that Bad End. We've already had some of the ex-Soviet countries decide that this is a fine time for a slap fight, Sudan is doing fucked if I even know kinda drugs and is in a slap-fight with itself, Israel and Palestine have decided to have a slap fight over whether Gaza would prefer its terrorism kosher or halal...

I never saw that post before but... it looks completely nutty. Just totally outside reality.

That's fucking rich coming from an alt-right troll.

[Starver]

Spoiler: ObMeme (click to show/hide)

...but we're definitely drifting. Unless we want to talk about how Ukraine once had nuclear weapons, by default. (And other FSRs, right?)

[Maximum Spin]

I never saw that post before but... it looks completely nutty. Just totally outside reality.

That's fucking rich coming from an alt-right troll.

You're such a loon.

...but we're definitely drifting. Unless we want to talk about how Ukraine once had nuclear weapons, by default. (And other FSRs, right?)

Kazakhstan did. Belarus also did and once gave them up, but has now entered into nuclear sharing agreements with Russia. As far as I know, that's it.

[MaxTheFox]

Do I smell a thread lock?

[hector13]

It’s been 10 hours since anybody said anything, so unless Random Dragon is working on the mother of all flame posts, it’s done.