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Author Topic: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0  (Read 210686 times)

Madman198237

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1275 on: August 20, 2023, 12:59:28 pm »

You know, I could keep replying and tearing apart the statements you are making and critiquing how if you don't want things read into your words maybe you shouldn't spell those things out directly in your words but we've hit ad hominem so have a nice, incorrect day.
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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1276 on: August 20, 2023, 01:05:22 pm »

You know, I could keep replying and tearing apart the statements you are making and critiquing how if you don't want things read into your words maybe you shouldn't spell those things out directly in your words but we've hit ad hominem so have a nice, incorrect day.
That's still not what ad hominem means.

Anyway, I'd also like to throw out that it's very common for historians to say, now, that the Sherman was the most important tank of WWII, especially compared to much heavier and higher-maintenance German tanks, because they were better able to deal with the actual conditions they were actually used in, including, crucially, the fact that the US could make a lot MORE of them. It's not like I'm saying anything new here.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1277 on: August 20, 2023, 01:10:12 pm »

You know, I could keep replying and tearing apart the statements you are making and critiquing how if you don't want things read into your words maybe you shouldn't spell those things out directly in your words but we've hit ad hominem so have a nice, incorrect day.
That's still not what ad hominem means.

Anyway, I'd also like to throw out that it's very common for historians to say, now, that the Sherman was the most important tank of WWII, especially compared to much heavier and higher-maintenance German tanks, because they were better able to deal with the actual conditions they were actually used in, including, crucially, the fact that the US could make a lot MORE of them. It's not like I'm saying anything new here.
American historians, you mean.
Russian historians say almost the same thing, except regarding the T-34 tank.
It helps to remember we have more than Americans in this World.

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1278 on: August 20, 2023, 01:11:49 pm »

American historians, you mean.
I actually don't, I last heard it from a Brit.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1279 on: August 20, 2023, 01:42:43 pm »

You know, I could keep replying and tearing apart the statements you are making and critiquing how if you don't want things read into your words maybe you shouldn't spell those things out directly in your words but we've hit ad hominem so have a nice, incorrect day.
That's still not what ad hominem means.

Anyway, I'd also like to throw out that it's very common for historians to say, now, that the Sherman was the most important tank of WWII, especially compared to much heavier and higher-maintenance German tanks, because they were better able to deal with the actual conditions they were actually used in, including, crucially, the fact that the US could make a lot MORE of them. It's not like I'm saying anything new here.

Well. Germany was outproduced. If the USA would go for their own Tigers and Panthers it still would be outproduced. And if Germany would opt for just churning out Panzer III\IV they still wouldn't win the war. So there is no definitive answer of which approach was actually better.


Nothing in the Russian-Ukrainian war points out that the Russian approach with smaller cheaper tanks is better in any way, shape or form in the year 2023.
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Lidku

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1280 on: August 20, 2023, 03:35:01 pm »

Russia as a state should be overthrown and the Golden Horde should be restored back into power.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1281 on: August 20, 2023, 09:08:17 pm »

This is not consistent with the information I've heard, which I have good reason to believe is accurate. The information I have access to is specifically that lighter tanks are surviving better "pound-for-pound", by which I mean, adjusted for equivalent circumstances, and as a proportion of the number used. I acknowledge that I can't prove this, but my impression was that this is widely known.

Maybe if you post your sources it would be easier to explain to you why this is absolutely, categorically, wrong. What you're arguing is something that theoreticians believed roughly sixty years ago, but which was abandoned after only a single vehicle generation (represented primarily by the Leopard 1) because exercises and reports from combat zones (primarily late-era Vietnam and various wars in the Middle East) showed that older vehicles with heavier armor routinely had greater chances to accomplish their mission than lighter ones. They were also much more likely to be able to be repaired and returned to service if knocked out, and the crew was more likely to survive.

Of the more modern, heavier vehicles that have gone into action, far fewer have been knocked out in proportional terms, not just absolute. Of those that have been knocked out, the vast majority have been repaired and returned to service rather than ceasing to exist.



Your comparison to the M4 Sherman (or T-34) is fundamentally flawed, because it was not a lighter tank compared to the main German equivalents. The Panzer IV was of similar size, and mostly struggled due to be obsolescent even at the start of the war (this is not Germany's fault, tank technology just advanced ludicrously fast by then and the Sherman was about four years newer. The Panzer V "Panther" was heavier, but the generally poor (yes, poor - the early engagements heavily favored the Panther because of the terrain, but that did not last) performance was due to significant design flaws*, not the size. Eliminate those, and the comparison looks far worse. The Tigers generally were irrelevant in this comparison, as they were not a M4/T-34 analog. They were the equivalent of the KV/IS series, or the British Churchills, primarily intended as heavy assault vehicles to punch through a particularly tough defensive line rather than outflanking it.



*For the interested, the big flaws were pathetic side armor (prewar AT rifles could punch through it), an excessively large gun (it was capable of punching through almost Allied armor at a distance of a kilometer, and most at 2, but such shots are so extremely rare that having that range is essentially wasted - it would be better to settle for punching through most armor at 500 meters and enjoy a much lighter weapon) that fired excessively large and heavy ammunition (rate of fire was drastically slowed, and the loader fatigued easily), extremely unreliable transmission gear (though not as bad as the morbidly obese Tiger II), and absolutely terrible visibility for the gunner (he only had a telescopic sight, while a Sherman (or Panzer IV!) gunner had a wide angle periscope, which allowed him to readily find a marked target instead of having to be coached by the commander),
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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1282 on: August 20, 2023, 09:57:29 pm »

Eh, all right, I'm not too fussed about the question of the lightness of the tanks. I don't have direct access to data on the subject and it wouldn't be the first time an academic was ever wrong if it is.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1283 on: August 20, 2023, 10:05:47 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1284 on: August 20, 2023, 10:13:50 pm »

Haha, well, I'd generally say that academics are usually right, but I don't personally know the team behind what I've been describing and I'm not going to sit here and pretend I can vouch for them.
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Strongpoint

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1285 on: August 20, 2023, 10:44:04 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_0U5thy31o

Absolutely legit proof that tanks are not outdated
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King Zultan

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1286 on: August 21, 2023, 02:41:38 am »

You know what will make tanks outdated, tanks with legs.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 02:54:00 am by King Zultan »
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hector13

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1287 on: August 21, 2023, 02:45:15 am »

Clones already make those obsolete, sorry.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1288 on: August 21, 2023, 07:18:13 am »

You know what will make tanks outdated, tanks with legs.
And then the mechs will be made obsolete by mechs with tank treads.
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martinuzz

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Re: Emotional Responses to War in Ukraine - Trollbait 2.0
« Reply #1289 on: August 22, 2023, 02:45:56 am »

Haha! Using a helicopter-like drone, Ukraine destroyed a hypersonic Toepalev Toe-22 bomber that was parked on an airfield 650km from the Ukrainian border.

In other news, yesteday, Moscow had to shut down its 3 largest airports due to drone attacks.
Go Ukraine! Disrupt Russia's civilian economy! Let no airliner dare go to Russia anymore.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 02:48:44 am by martinuzz »
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