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[EuchreJack]

I think Ukraine getting Cluster Munitions from the US, and tying that into a reaction to Russia destroying the Dam, is understated.

Cluster Munitions are downright illegal under the Geneva Convention. The US is essentially aiding Ukraine in committing a War Crime by providing those munitions to Ukraine.

Russia is no doubt aware of this. This indeed opens up the possibility that, if Russia does anything to the Nuclear Power Plant that spreads large amounts of radiation, then some lesser-known Weapon of Mass Destruction from the US Armory could be donated to Ukraine.

[Criptfeind]

Cluster Munitions are downright illegal under the Geneva Convention. The US is essentially aiding Ukraine in committing a War Crime by providing those munitions to Ukraine.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. There's a separate international treaty, the convention on cluster munitions, which prohibits it's signatories from making/using them, but neither the US nor Ukraine are signatories of that.

[EuchreJack]

Cluster Munitions are downright illegal under the Geneva Convention. The US is essentially aiding Ukraine in committing a War Crime by providing those munitions to Ukraine.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. There's a separate international treaty, the convention on cluster munitions, which prohibits it's signatories from making/using them, but neither the US nor Ukraine are signatories of that.

I'm sure the signatories would still consider their use to be a war crime. But at any rate, it's a clear escalation of weapons being provided.

A couple articles from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_humanitarian_law

[Criptfeind]

I'm sure the signatories would still consider their use to be a war crime. But at any rate, it's a clear escalation of weapons being provided.

A couple articles from Wikipedia:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_humanitarian_law

It's a an escalation yes, and there's real human cost because it'll probably be impossible to get a 100% success rate on cleaning them up after the war, and thus there's a good chance that at some point civilians will die, this is probably why the US has been hesitant, but civilians are going to die anyway, this war is going to escalate (one way or another) anyway.

And no, they wouldn't consider it a war crime because Ukraine didn't sign up to not do it... That's not how it works.

Also yes, those Wikipedia links agree with me, I guess I should have posted them to show you your mistake instead of relying on my memory, thanks.

Edit: If you click though the cluster munitions page to the page of the treaty I was talking about there's this line "In response to U.S. lobbying, and also concerns raised by diplomats from Australia, Canada, Japan, the United Kingdom and others, the treaty includes a provision allowing signatory nations to cooperate militarily with non-signatory nations. This provision is designed to provide legal protections to the military personnel of signatory nations engaged in military operations with the U.S. or other non-signatory nations that might use cluster munitions.[25] David Miliband, who was Britain's foreign secretary under Labour, approved the use of a loophole to manoeuvre around the ban which allows the US to keep the munitions on British territory.[26]"

This isn't like some crime against humanity that everyone can agree should be against the rules of war and people should be punished for doing it even if they don't sign a treaty saying they won't. There's apparently a specific clause saying that signatories can continue to work with people that use cluster munitions... That's not the sort of thing you put into rules about absolute moral failures. They absolutely aren't going to turn around and start hating on Ukraine for doing it.

[Strongpoint]

I think Ukraine getting Cluster Munitions from the US, and tying that into a reaction to Russia destroying the Dam, is understated.

Cluster Munitions are downright illegal under the Geneva Convention. The US is essentially aiding Ukraine in committing a War Crime by providing those munitions to Ukraine.

Russia is no doubt aware of this. This indeed opens up the possibility that, if Russia does anything to the Nuclear Power Plant that spreads large amounts of radiation, then some lesser-known Weapon of Mass Destruction from the US Armory could be donated to Ukraine.

No. Cluster munitions are not banned by Geneva conventions. There is a  quite recent treaty ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions ) and neither Ukraine nor USA are signatories of it.

And again, why would Russia care that Ukraine will get more and better weapons? They already lost the war in Ukraine, now there are new goals: Make Ukraine pay for liberated territory and make liberated territory as useless as possible. Scorched Earth.

[martinuzz]

Great. The Russian nazi fucktards hit a school in Serhiivka, Donetsk. Two female school teachers died, and 6 were injured.
I hope the fucking retards who did that will get killed in very slow ways. I hope they scream and gurgle for at least 2 hours before dying.

EDIT: Meanwhile, the USA is contemplating committing war crimes, by supplying Ukraine with internatially banned cluster bomb ammo, to drive the Russians from their trenches and fortified positions. (Cluster munitions are banned, because using them means that 20 years from now, toddlers playing in the sand will still get blown to shreds by the remnants of those fuckers. That shit is worse than anti personell landmines).

[Criptfeind]

EDIT: Meanwhile, the USA is contemplating committing war crimes, by supplying Ukraine with internatially banned cluster bomb ammo, to drive the Russians from their trenches and fortified positions. (Cluster munitions are banned, because using them means that 20 years from now, toddlers playing in the sand will still get blown to shreds by the remnants of those fuckers. That shit is worse than anti personell landmines).

This is just the conversation we've been having over the past few posts. I think the salient points are A: Not a warcrime, because neither US or Ukraine are part of the treaty that banned them B:Toddlers now are being blown to shreds by Russians, and it will only get worse if Russia doesn't loose faster or start to win. Ukraine believes that it is the lesser of two evils. And I agree with that. It's an absolute tragedy but there's no "good end" to this war, just less bad ones.

[jipehog]

Cluster Munitions is as legal as Russian incendiary weapons. And can be very useful against entrenched forces.

btw according to some definition of cluster munition, Urkaine is already using them i.e. the "mine shells" (whatever they called), that are used during engagements to mine access roads behind enemy lines to cutoff Russian counter-attacks/reinforcements

[martinuzz]

Let's just say that over here, they are banned and viewed as a great evil. One of our biggest banks was almost destroyed when people quit their accounts en masse, because they invested some of their funds in cluster munitions.

Also, and well yeah, because the USA and Ukraine did not sign the treaty against cluster munitions, your countries are seen as barbaric failed states by a lot of people, not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea. For some, Best Korea is more civilized than the USA, because even though both have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons and cluster munitions, at least in Best Korea civilians do not have guns.

[Great Order]

EDIT: Meanwhile, the USA is contemplating committing war crimes, by supplying Ukraine with internatially banned cluster bomb ammo, to drive the Russians from their trenches and fortified positions. (Cluster munitions are banned, because using them means that 20 years from now, toddlers playing in the sand will still get blown to shreds by the remnants of those fuckers. That shit is worse than anti personell landmines).

IIRC it's also because they're imprecise so any use on positions near civilians can very easily result in civilian casualties.

[martinuzz]

Cluster Munitions is as legal as Russian incendiary weapons. And can be very useful against entrenched forces.

btw according to some definition of cluster munition, Urkaine is already using them i.e. the "mine shells" (whatever they called), that are used during engagements to mine access roads behind enemy lines to cutoff Russian counter-attacks/reinforcements

You cannot compare incendiary weapons (even white phosporus) with cluster munitions. White phosporus and napalm are horrible, but they are done burning within a few hours / days.
Cluster munitions will keep killing innocent civilians for decades if not centuries.

I would be less outraged at using nerve gas against trenches than I would be outraged about using cluster munitions on trenches.

[Egan_BW]

Any country allied to the USA can ban inhumane weapons fairly safely, because even if they turn out to be needed at some point, they can just rely on the USA using them.

Not saying that's good, but if the USA weren't a global hegemony, I bet a lot fewer states would ban such things, because they'd be afraid of denying themselves something vital to security.

[Criptfeind]

Also, and well yeah, because the USA and Ukraine did not sign the treaty against cluster munitions, your countries are seen as barbaric failed states by a lot of people, not much better than Afghanistan or Best Korea. For some, Best Korea is more civilized than the USA, because even though both have nuclear, biological, chemical weapons and cluster munitions, at least in Best Korea civilians do not have guns.

Okay that's a fine philosophy to have, but I have a question, how much do you think dutch moral superiority over the savage Ukrainan alleviates the discomfort of the average Ukrainan as his country is destroyed, his family killed, and his wife and children raped to death?

[martinuzz]

I dunno man, we don't have things like a Geneva convention and treaties to ban cluster munitions and anti personell mines for no reason.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the plight of the people of Ukraine. And I stand with them. Fuck the Russian invading fuckers, make them all die.
 But that is no carte blanche to say 'fuck all international rules and treaties about warfare'. Like, not at all.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Besides, despite the discomfort of the average Ukrainan as his country is destroyed, his family killed, and his wife and children raped to death, I don't think any Ukrainian would like the solution to that to be that their children, grand children, great grand children and their respective dogs and cats can be randomly blown to bits by the remnants of wars of eras past. Because that's exactly what cluster munitions do.

[jipehog]

Overall there are a lot of weapons system that does essentially the same thing, some have been intentionally developed to avoid the treaty on technicalities.

In case of cluster munition they were banned due to high recurrence of duds and follow up civilians casualties, same reason why anti personal mines are banned (not that it stopped russia) But you are allowed to use anti-personnel mines if they are command denotated.. and this evoled to things like M7_Spider all of which is legal and as human as any other weapon of war.

Also I was talking about Remote Anti-Armor Mine System which is essentially cluster munition but the ok kind (as not covered by either cluster munition or mine regulations)

EDIT: my point is that not all cluster munition are illegal, you need to be more specific about what we are talking about.