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[jipehog]

Well, I am very annoyed by the Oscar given to the documentary film about Navalny (and this award has nothing to do with the quality of the documentary). It is normalization of Russian crimes. Presenting Russians in the light of poor people under the heel of an evil dictator.

It is not necessarily wrong. There are a lot of people in Russia who don't support Putin, who knew his narrative are pure BS from day one, and were helpless todo anything but watch as their whole lives go down the drain. Ever been in inevitable car accident, like where you stand in jam watching in the rear mirror as some idiot getting closer and closer and closer.. only its your life..

Regardless it is smart politics. At this point the goal is to undermine Putin support, once people stop dying we can worry about being pedantics, and separating the regime from the people is a simple way to give some an alternative and avoid getting others backs up. Conversely this is exactly the opposite of Putin narrative, who from the start tried to paint his invasion as more inclusive global struggle i.e. Russian's war, Russian Mir, east vs west, religious western moral decadents etc.

Also keep in mind the vagueness of the term Russian, which refers to both those living in Russia and ethnic group of the East Slavic peoples in general. When the war broke out it led to many anti Russian sentiments, consequently there were example kids of immigrants from USSR, who spoke Russian but were born outside of Russia who had their kids picked on at school because they are Russians.

If the city falls (and remember that it has been falling Any Day Now for more than six months), the forces in the city are very likely fully prepared to defend their homes a little further to the east.

The question is how far back.. It's not just a matter of digging some trenches, there is a line to maintain, question of logistics, finding good natural or otherwise barriers that set the odds in our favor.

if it follows previous patterns it is very likely that significant chunks of territory will be liberated

Very unlikely that it will, but I am hopping for a new rabbit.

[MaxTheFox]

Also yeah even if many Russians support Putin, many are indeed oppressed. Forgot to address that point. In any case it's an useful documentary regardless, anything in that direction should be welcomed.

On the other hand it should be acknowledged that like half of us or more are Z-ombified and should share the blame for helping Putin stay in power. But people like I and KT should not be blamed and I will die on this hill. We had no part in this and can't change anything. Hate it when people act like I am somehow at fault for this.

[Strongpoint]

It is not necessarily wrong. There are a lot of people in Russia who don't support Putin, who knew his narrative are pure BS from day one, and were helpless todo anything but watch as their whole lives go down the drain. Ever been in inevitable car accident, like where you stand in jam watching in the rear mirror as some idiot getting closer and closer and closer.. only its your life..

Some people in Russia are not free. Quite a lot, actually. But Russia itself is free. There is no external will imposed on it.

At this point the goal is to undermine Putin support, once people stop dying we can worry about being pedantics, and separating the regime from the people is a simple way to give some an alternative and avoid getting others backs up

It is like saying in the midst of WW2: At this point, the goal is to undermine Hitler's  support.
What good will it do if Putin will be replaced by someone more competent if Russia will retain the same ideology? They'll try again in a few years or decades.

Conversely this is exactly the opposite of Putin narrative, who from the start tried to paint his invasion as global affair i.e. Russian's war, Russian Mir, east vs west, religious western moral decadents etc.

But this is the truth. This is the war of Russia vs the West. It is an attempt to spread Russian Mir. The only thing Putin is lying about here is who actually desires this war.

consequently there were example kids of immigrants from USSR, who spoke Russian but were born outside of Russia who had their kids picked on at school because they are Russians.

What a pity! They are bullied, I, who reads news about killed and maimed children with grim regularity, am very sympathetic to their immense struggle.

BTW, in most cases bullying happens not for merely being Russians but for openly supporting Russia and its genocidal war. Russian diaspora all over the world is extremely pro-war.

[MaxTheFox]

I think you're being pedantic and that by "Russia" they mean "Russian people, specifically those not responsible for the war". Nobody with a brain will interpret "free Russia" as "Russian government gets to do whatever it wants", especially in the context of the documentary. It just doesn't make sense.

Ukraine has a "Freedom of Russia Legion". What do you think the name alludes to?

[Strongpoint]

I think you're being pedantic and that by "Russia" they mean "Russian people, specifically those not responsible for the war".

Ukraine has a "Freedom of Russia Legion". What do you think the name alludes to?

To the very same concept and I also dislike that this name pushes the same narrative. If those guys really expect that the majority of Russians will treat them as liberators from the evil Putin and not traitors... They are in for a surprise. If they want their country to change, they need to force their country to change (not Putin or his regime).

This legion is weird and sends mixed political signals probably because it is composed of very different people with quite different agendas.

[MaxTheFox]

Still think this is pedantry but OK fair enough.

[anewaname]

Pessimism and paranoia go hand-in-hand. People who have been bullied into submission do not stop being afraid of the next blow, they only question who it will be from.

If violence taught them that screaming their patriotism will stop them from being hurt, they will continue to scream their patriotism when there is no violence.

[EuchreJack]

This thread is about emotional takes, right?

Well, I am very annoyed by the Oscar given to the documentary film about Navalny (and this award has nothing to do with the quality of the documentary). It is normalization of Russian crimes. Presenting Russians in the light of poor people under the heel of an evil dictator.

Navalny's wife said something along the lines "I dream one day my husband and my country will be free" and it is... a manipulation.

Russia IS free to do exactly what it wants. It is not like it is occupied by a foreign occupying power that forces it to do something Russia doesn't want. She could say "I hope one day my country won't be a bloodthirsty evil empire" or something along those lines but she didn't.

Pretty sure some Ukrainians said the same shit about Zelenskyy prior to his "I'm not abandoning Kiev" moment.

Guy seems decent. Not everyone can toss Molotovs in the street.

[Strongpoint]

This thread is about emotional takes, right?

Well, I am very annoyed by the Oscar given to the documentary film about Navalny (and this award has nothing to do with the quality of the documentary). It is normalization of Russian crimes. Presenting Russians in the light of poor people under the heel of an evil dictator.

Navalny's wife said something along the lines "I dream one day my husband and my country will be free" and it is... a manipulation.

Russia IS free to do exactly what it wants. It is not like it is occupied by a foreign occupying power that forces it to do something Russia doesn't want. She could say "I hope one day my country won't be a bloodthirsty evil empire" or something along those lines but she didn't.

Pretty sure some Ukrainians said the same shit about Zelenskyy prior to his "I'm not abandoning Kiev" moment.

Guy seems decent. Not everyone can toss Molotovs in the street.

How Molotovs are even related? I dislike the narrative of good Russians oppressed by evil Putin's regime. And this definately-given-for-the-quality-of-the-documentary Oscar promotes this narrative.

[jipehog]

At this point the goal is to undermine Putin support, once people stop dying we can worry about being pedantics, and separating the regime from the people is a simple way to give some an alternative and avoid getting others backs up

It is like saying in the midst of WW2: At this point, the goal is to undermine Hitler's  support.
What good will it do if Putin will be replaced by someone more competent if Russia will retain the same ideology? They'll try again in a few years or decades.

I am not sure that strongly worded condemnation from Hollywood is what is going to bring down a nuclear power, current within might.
So far sanctions had lackluster effect and Russia is keep gearing up for the long war.

Conversely this is exactly the opposite of Putin narrative, who from the start tried to paint his invasion as global affair i.e. Russian's war, Russian Mir, east vs west, religious western moral decadents etc.

But this is the truth. This is the war of Russia vs the West. It is an attempt to spread Russian Mir. The only thing Putin is lying about here is who actually desires this war.

I am talking about Russian propaganda trying to increase public support by presenting Putins attempt to make imperialisms great again as defensive war of no choice waged against all Russians (common tactic e.g. Erdogan does this with muslims) and shared history values narratives against to bring former glory back against his liberal gay elite satanist. But yes you could say that the latest installment in Putin's campaign to preserve his regime, end American hegemony, and reinstate Russia as a global power has failed to meet its objectives and devolved to a global conflict.

BTW, in most cases bullying happens not for merely being Russians but for openly supporting Russia and its genocidal war. Russian diaspora all over the world is extremely pro-war.

Maybe, but I can tell you that bulling kids that didn't know that Russia exist, certainly increased sentiments not in support of Russia but against the west.

[ChairmanPoo]

This thread is about emotional takes, right?

Well, I am very annoyed by the Oscar given to the documentary film about Navalny (and this award has nothing to do with the quality of the documentary). It is normalization of Russian crimes. Presenting Russians in the light of poor people under the heel of an evil dictator.

Navalny's wife said something along the lines "I dream one day my husband and my country will be free" and it is... a manipulation.

Russia IS free to do exactly what it wants. It is not like it is occupied by a foreign occupying power that forces it to do something Russia doesn't want. She could say "I hope one day my country won't be a bloodthirsty evil empire" or something along those lines but she didn't.

Pretty sure some Ukrainians said the same shit about Zelenskyy prior to his "I'm not abandoning Kiev" moment.

Guy seems decent. Not everyone can toss Molotovs in the street.

Navalny is openly racist, openly Russian-imperialist. He's not "decent". He's the exact same shit.

[Strongpoint]

I am not sure that strongly worded condemnation from Hollywood is what is going to bring down a nuclear power, current within might.

Not it wouldn't. It has some modest effect on public opinion and it is a rather minor thing if taken in isolation. But I see a trend, a narrative that is harmful not only to my country but to the world.

Instead of saying "Russia is a deeply immoral society that needs some serious fixing." we are getting cartoonish "remove Putin('s regime) and all will be cool and good in no time!"

[bloop_bleep]

Navalny is a step in the right direction. He is against the war, acknowledged Crimea is Ukrainian not too far back. If that is an opposition figure that is palatable to Russians then so be it.

In the end the question becomes whether you want to make things better or wring out some personal emotional satisfaction. Russian society needs guidance and time to reform.

[ChairmanPoo]

Navalny is a step in the right direction. He is against the war, acknowledged Crimea is Ukrainian not too far back. If that is an opposition figure that is palatable to Russians then so be it.

In the end the question becomes whether you want to make things better or wring out some personal emotional satisfaction. Russian society needs guidance and time to reform.

He's full of shit. The swerve about Crimea is too little, too late, and too convenient. In the past he defended the Russianness of Crimea. He's alsoludicrously racist against Georgians and defended the military intervention in Georgia. He's really pretty bad

[Random_Dragon]

So when he inevitably throws himself out a window I assume I'll have to make a variation of the same meme I made when Gorbachev died, aren't I...

Spoiler: said meme (click to show/hide)