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[Jim Groovester]

Hey everybody calm down a little and ease off on the votes. I don't want the end of Day 2 to happen so soon.

[ToonyMan]

Hey everybody calm down a little and ease off on the votes. I don't want the end of Day 2 to happen so soon.

Thanks Jim.

I'm writing posts I guess I'll just release them in chunks at a time.

[webadict]

Apologies, I got super sidetracked, and I'm obviously getting nowhere quickly, because I'm doing things at the same time, so I'm just gonna do some quickfire question and answers:

This post.
I don't like this post.  It jokingly fishes, which is entirely scummy.  It's been bugging me for a while because it doesn't really have any real outcomes that could benefit Town except to obscure roles.  It's also nothing words.  Dislike.

What was the purpose of this post?

I do like this post.
It feels like Toony is probing, but it's not as in depth as others.  But, it feels very limited in scope.  Can I judge Toony for that when other players don't do as much?  Unsure.

Do you still find EuchreJack to be suspicious?  Why/why not?

This fucking post
Feels really apt.  This kinda feels partnery.  There's not much of a question, but it made me mad.

The next post down makes me feel like you're trying really hard to identify everyone's role.  Am I right in that assumption?

This post with regards to a1s.  I'm not sure why a1s tickles me, but it might be that I don't like the green Town thing they're doing each post, but also, I...  Hold on, let me re-organize my thoughts:

So, say that the team is a1s/Toony.  Toony convinces Jim to unvote Max and vote me.  Toony convinces a1s to vote me.  Does Town Toony pull a Houdini for his scummate?  He absolutely can and has successfully done it before.  He's also last minute brigaded me as scum.  These are not outside Toony's scumplay.  In order for me to accept that Toony is Town, I have to accept that I was the most suspicious there.  No, that's not entirely true.  NQT might have been the most suspicious, but leveraging that NQT is always the most suspicious, he chose to take a different route and vote me out.

Okay, thoughts organized, continuing.

This is me noting that you're definitely aware of the votes.

"Let's not vote Max, let's vote Web!"  The best part about this post iis it happens right as I start driving, so this is where I'm no longer around.  That's really fucking lucky for ToonyMan, but not anything I made obvious, so I can't blame him for that.

a1s you need to switch to Webadict or you're dying currently. I'll be switching to you to prevent nonsense.

Alright, back to quotes, URLs suck.  I think this post is more evidence that ToonyMan's watching the vote.

Locking thread, do not post.

I think this is actually the more likely reason Toony didn't shift his vote to a1s last second.  There's still over a minute left in the Day (or there should've been.)  Toony has posted at the end of the Day with seconds to go before, so I know he can.  That's actually also evidence that Max may be his partner as well, since Max has also done this.

The downside to this, is that I can't prove I wasn't trying to do the same, but my vote shifting should prove that I was under the impression that I was dead and wanted to leave behind who I thought was scum.

Were you trying to post at the end of Day once more, Toony?  Would you have shifted your vote to a1s had you known that a1s was tied with me?

Pfp at work

First, don't claim if you actioned last night. It's very possible mafia didn't kill. If you did action just keep it in the back of your mind.

Second, I miscounted and thought Web was at 3 and everyone else was 2 or less, but maybe that's a blessing. Would I have voted a1s last second to ensure an elimination? I probably would have.

Third, Web seems like town based on end of day. They missed a free kill on a1s and instead voted me and Max. This logic also applies to Tric. Maybe they miscounted as well. Either way it makes me feel good about him.

I feel like this post covers up Mafia potentially being roleblocked or protected against as a way to not narrow down the Mafia.  I also don't like that this might be used to assuage my hostility coming out of the Day, assuming that he did miscount.  Although, it does answer my last question.

Anyway, that's some of my thoughts written down.  Here's some side notes on this I saw while typing this.  Apologies for how fucking disorganized my brain is here, but I was doing something else and this is the result of my multitask.



Extra thoughts to consider:
Would Town!Jim do this?  Maybe.  Would Toony + Jim do this?  Less likely.  Jim is hiding under the radar and looks Town to most people, and Toony's would be taking advantage of a lucky break to vote me out.  It'd make sense why the final vote never materialized, but it's not exactly subtle.

I think that EuchreJack and TricMagic are legitimate on ToonyMan.  I do not think they are likely to be scum.  TricMagic had every reason to vote me Yesterday, so I can't reasonably conclude TricMagic is scum unless TricMagic is legitimately amazing, terrible, or also thought I was already dead and so didn't join the wagon.  I refuse to believe that, so I'm going with Tric = Town.  EuchreJack
/Toony doesn't appear to be a viable team here, so if one's scum, the other is definitely Town.

Or you were protecting Max, it's why you said that there.

Vote ToonyMan/Maximum Spin 2023!

(inb4 I get murdered for being AFK: I'm going to sleep.)

This vote makes me want to vote a1s over ToonyMan.

wow

much insight

Yes yes my statement is a nothingburger by the way what the hell did you mean by "web backs them quite a bit" like I'm obviously not that observant but I don't see how he backed me up anymore than the average person backed me up your views on things feels quiet inconsistent.

The reason he pointed this out is because what you said was legitimately scummy for reasons you won't understand, but he may also be trying to build a Fluffe/Web team, which you'll notice if you look at the end of Day 1.

I was just trying the Toony trick of confidently calling the scum team. Toony has managed to catch the exact team this way in two recent games. I'm saying it's Toony/Fluff.

I don't think that's supported by this exchange:
Fluffe/Toony doesn't feel like a viable pairing.  Toony/a1s is viable.  Toony/Jim is viable.  Toony/Max is viable.  Toony/??Tric?? is really pushing it, but maybe somehow possible if I eat some space honey.  I don't think Toony/Euchre is possible.  And I'm not sure you're possible to be paired with Toony unless he's hard committed to the bus.

Now I feel dumb for calling Max's a1s/Toony pair stupid.

Also, the wagon on Toony built really fucking fast.  So, ToonyMan, who's Town on this wagon?

[ToonyMan]

I was just trying the Toony trick of confidently calling the scum team. Toony has managed to catch the exact team this way in two recent games. I'm saying it's Toony/Fluff.

I actually have a wild theory it's NQT/Jack if Max is town. But I can only believe that if I believe Jack's outburst was staged and that a town!Max would be incorrect, which I haven't put any serious thought into and would need to look over. At the time I just saw angry uppercase letters and let Jack have the W.

Toony what's disingenuous about my argument?

Hmm I like NQT's attitude towards Jack.

It's like he dropped his earlier read when it was no longer convenient. I'm the obvious patsy from a scum!Toony perspective. D1  a newb could be mislynched, but D2+ he needs me to be available as the next mislynch. So he's setting his ducks in a row.

1. I thought your points of Jack being suspicious were sound arguments but grew misgivings later when Jack was more convincing.
2. I failed to lynch any newbs on D1.
3. You're settings your own ducks in a row for D2.

NQT could be anything, let's say town for now. Plant part could be anything, can't tell.

Moreover, going back to this post, why would a town!Toony be speculating about the plants? It's like he forgot to save that analysis for the scumchat. He's blurring his roles here.

In that post I wanted to label players as plant parts while justifying reasons, I think I did this for Jim or Max. I'm completely guessing and giving other players labels as a way to have fun (or if you want to be serious business, mind games). Webadict did something similar by claiming Stem alongside Tric.

Start of D2, what does he do? This is what he was thinking about foremost during the night:

First, don't claim if you actioned last night. It's very possible mafia didn't kill. If you did action just keep it in the back of your mind.

If scum did try and kill and were blocked he DOES NOT want town to claim that. Even if they were lying low, he doesn't want a mass claim at this stage in case it confirms town. On D1 he already tried to dissuade town from mass-acting, as he says it's not likely to mutually confirm people:

I decided to give NQT"s question some thought and the conclusion I came to is everyone using their ability on N1 sounds like it will probably work out poorly, especially if mafia nokill because we then don't learn anything.

But he didn't share his workings out, so who knows, maybe a scum!Toony came to the conclusion that it would help town if they all shot their shot on N1.

No, I stand by my belief it's correct not to claim right now. I'm really confident mafia did not try to kill last night, like at least 85% sure. One of the reasons is that if I were mafia!Toony I wouldn't want to kill on N1 in this game either.

I don't like you attacking me for wanting players to keep quiet when you attacked Jack on D1 for wanting players to speak up about what they planned on doing. Here. You also say yourself that mafia not killing on N1 would have solid mechanical reasoning behind it. In other words, you're saying whatever comes to mind to try to get me lynched.

And what justification would I have for piling on? If I were mafia, I could just go to bed and let town do the work.

I can't argue this. Not doing anything would definitely be more scummy.

My positions on Jack and A1s yesterday were crystal clear. Jack was dodgy but I thought his meltdown was genuine, I never liked a1s's disengagement, but when I woke up D2 and saw end of day, I thought their sacrificial play was townsided. I've been more forthcoming D1 about actual reasons to vote than most players. You're not convincing me you're town here, Toon!

Okay we've confirmed your feelings have turned around on Jack and a1s. Why is Fluffe suspicious?

[ToonyMan]

This post.
I don't like this post.  It jokingly fishes, which is entirely scummy.  It's been bugging me for a while because it doesn't really have any real outcomes that could benefit Town except to obscure roles.  It's also nothing words.  Dislike.

What was the purpose of this post?

I sort of answered this for NQT. I'm not allowed to have fun at game start I guess...I mean, actually I'm confusing the mafia man. It's like claiming Stem or saying Root for no reason. I was picking up what players were putting down because what's a bluff without a few more bluffs on top.

[ToonyMan]

Do you still find EuchreJack to be suspicious?  Why/why not?

Currently, not really. I want them to explain to me how confident they are that a1s is mafia or not based on the game they were in together where a1s was mafia. Jack had them at the bottom of their reads D1 as a solid mafia pick. I wasn't able to get an answer before the day ended.

[webadict]

This post.
I don't like this post.  It jokingly fishes, which is entirely scummy.  It's been bugging me for a while because it doesn't really have any real outcomes that could benefit Town except to obscure roles.  It's also nothing words.  Dislike.

What was the purpose of this post?

I sort of answered this for NQT. I'm not allowed to have fun at game start I guess...I mean, actually I'm confusing the mafia man. It's like claiming Stem or saying Root for no reason. I was picking up what players were putting down because what's a bluff without a few more bluffs on top.

Do you think this is a FUCKING GAME?!?

PEOPLE DIE IN MAFIA, TOONY!  I was almost killed Yesterday, and you're talking about having FUN!?!?

[ToonyMan]

This fucking post
Feels really apt.  This kinda feels partnery.  There's not much of a question, but it made me mad.

The next post down makes me feel like you're trying really hard to identify everyone's role.  Am I right in that assumption?

First part is a total coincidence but I would be lying if I said I didn't think it would happen.

This setup is different than anything I've played before. I think I'm just wording out my thoughts on optimal play there. I think (most likely) wasting our one-shots early is a way to lose the late-game. That's still how I feel. For example if we kill one of the mafia there will only be one left and that makes all of our one-shots more useful if we still have them. If we block a player and a kill still happens, then we know for sure that player is town, instead of not being sure because there's still two mafia. Same logic applies to like if a Flower tracks a player and they visit someone else who didn't die, the player is also town-confirmed. This is just an ideal example off the top of my head but there's probably situations with two mafia left where later is better still.

PPE:

Do you think this is a FUCKING GAME?!?

PEOPLE DIE IN MAFIA, TOONY!  I was almost killed Yesterday, and you're talking about having FUN!?!?

I was going to like...play video games after work today, but I would apparently rather spend hours getting beat up by strangers.

[ToonyMan]

Were you trying to post at the end of Day once more, Toony?

No, I swear. I left the forums after I saw NJW locked the thread and goofed off for awhile, when I came back NJW still hadn't posted the results. Then some more time after that the proper D1 end happened and that's when I realized it was a tie. I was relieved when I saw that because I regretted the Web lynch afterwards. You'll know 100% for sure I'm an idiot when I die or this game ends, but I swear I didn't realize it was a tie until hours or whatever later when NJW posted EoD results.

Now that I think about it, if I just sheeped Tric and Web and voted Max at day end then Max almost certainly would have died since Jim was onboard that and a1s would probably have joined too. I think I can argue that my actions sheltered a1s and Max, not just a1s. This also means I gave up the easy path of letting Max get lynched, you would have to believe I'm not pulling a dumb stunt though. In a world where I was partners with Max I could have just taken it easy and gotten a1s lynched instead of pushing for Web. These arguments can't be debated since it's WIFOM but I figure since I'm having the thoughts I would type them.

Would you have shifted your vote to a1s had you known that a1s was tied with me?

I probably would have, yes. I can't say 100% since we can't ask that version of me, but if I look at other games where some asshole made a tie at day end I'm constantly breaking ties whether I want to or not.

[ToonyMan]

Now I feel dumb for calling Max's a1s/Toony pair stupid.

It would be even dumber if it's a1s/Max since that means I sheltered both at end of Day 1.

Also, the wagon on Toony built really fucking fast.  So, ToonyMan, who's Town on this wagon?

Out of Jack, a1s, Tric, NQT?

Tric for sure. Jack and a1s probably. NQT not probably.

[ToonyMan]

I would like some free time tonight so I'm going to ease back a bit. I have a similar schedule tomorrow but I may be home later than usual so I won't have proper computer access for awhile.

[webadict]

PPE:

Do you think this is a FUCKING GAME?!?

PEOPLE DIE IN MAFIA, TOONY!  I was almost killed Yesterday, and you're talking about having FUN!?!?

I was going to like...play video games after work today, but I would apparently rather spend hours getting beat up by strangers.

Why did you type the same thing twice in a row?

Were you trying to post at the end of Day once more, Toony?

No, I swear. I left the forums after I saw NJW locked the thread and goofed off for awhile, when I came back NJW still hadn't posted the results. Then some more time after that the proper D1 end happened and that's when I realized it was a tie. I was relieved when I saw that because I regretted the Web lynch afterwards. You'll know 100% for sure I'm an idiot when I die or this game ends, but I swear I didn't realize it was a tie until hours or whatever later when NJW posted EoD results.

Now that I think about it, if I just sheeped Tric and Web and voted Max at day end then Max almost certainly would have died since Jim was onboard that and a1s would probably have joined too. I think I can argue that my actions sheltered a1s and Max, not just a1s. This also means I gave up the easy path of letting Max get lynched, you would have to believe I'm not pulling a dumb stunt though. In a world where I was partners with Max I could have just taken it easy and gotten a1s lynched instead of pushing for Web. These arguments can't be debated since it's WIFOM but I figure since I'm having the thoughts I would type them.

Right, that's actually what I was more wary of there.  I'm on a weird fence with a1s because on the one hand, I don't really see them as scum and then they do really scummy things in a weirdly Town way, but I also honestly don't believe you'd stick your neck out that far for a1s to vote me out because that looks hella bad for you.  But, I would believe you'd stick your neck out for Max, because Max is a really solid player, which is why my assumption is that you were trying to protect Max and potentially frame a1s.

The other reason I'm wary is that scum can win with good kill luck, and shielding your teammate is far more broken in this game than I think anyone actually realizes, but I know you adapt really well to games, so I don't put that past you.

The other issue I have is that I can't talk any further about roles, and I'm pretty sure you know exactly why, so I'll leave it there.

Now I feel dumb for calling Max's a1s/Toony pair stupid.

It would be even dumber if it's a1s/Max since that means I sheltered both at end of Day 1.

Also, the wagon on Toony built really fucking fast.  So, ToonyMan, who's Town on this wagon?

Out of Jack, a1s, Tric, NQT?

Tric for sure. Jack and a1s probably. NQT not probably.

If it's somehow a1s and Max, I'm going to be very upset with you.

As for those Town picks, I don't think anyone could reasonably suspect Tric, so he's a freebie.  I can agree with Jack, and I can understand NQT.

Anyway, I'm willing to wait on this, unless anyone else has any information, but I'm not gonna hound anyone for anything.  I'd like to have some solid leads before hammering, at the very least.

[Jim Groovester]

Ohhhhh people are mad at ToonyMan because he encouraged a1s to change his vote to webadict ten minutes before the deadline, thus causing a tie.

I was paying attention pretty closely at the end of the day and that sequence of events didn't really bother me since it was consistent with ToonyMan's stated intentions to that point.

I'm inclined to believe ToonyMan when he says he didn't think the vote was tied because why does he apologize to webadict like a doofus if he does that knowingly.

Locking thread, do not post.

I think this is actually the more likely reason Toony didn't shift his vote to a1s last second.  There's still over a minute left in the Day (or there should've been.)  Toony has posted at the end of the Day with seconds to go before, so I know he can.  That's actually also evidence that Max may be his partner as well, since Max has also done this.

The downside to this, is that I can't prove I wasn't trying to do the same, but my vote shifting should prove that I was under the impression that I was dead and wanted to leave behind who I thought was scum.

Forum time and actual time are out of sync by two minutes. The day ended right on the hour, but forum time lagged behind by two minutes. I was paying attention and it caught me off guard. Unlike everybody else I counted a tie at the end of the day and was confused by people acting like you were going to die and thought maybe I had made the mistake, but the day suddenly ending stopped me from doing anything to sort it out.

I believe ToonyMan when he says we would have switched his vote if he knew there was a tie since I was there and had all of the same concerns he has been expressing after the fact.



I'm going to go deadlift and wish I hadn't drunk all my beer last night and I'll probably return to this game later in the evening.

[ToonyMan]

Right, that's actually what I was more wary of there.  I'm on a weird fence with a1s because on the one hand, I don't really see them as scum and then they do really scummy things in a weirdly Town way, but I also honestly don't believe you'd stick your neck out that far for a1s to vote me out because that looks hella bad for you.  But, I would believe you'd stick your neck out for Max, because Max is a really solid player, which is why my assumption is that you were trying to protect Max and potentially frame a1s.

The main thing for me is I can't see a1s with anybody but Jim, but I don't think Jim is scum at all. So while I do agree a1s is on a weird fence I still town read them. I'm willing to vote them today if that happens. I think I'm willing to vote NQT, Max, a1s in that order.

The other issue I have is that I can't talk any further about roles, and I'm pretty sure you know exactly why, so I'll leave it there.

Heh I can guess. Well on the plus side I really don't think mafia!Webadict wastes time thinking about the game so productively and maybe even lolhammers me so that makes me feel better.

[EuchreJack]

@Jim: Does town!Toony play to emotion so much?
@web: Does town!Jim completely and utterly ignore any question I ask him?