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[DanielCoffey]

I am aware that near-surface dirt is considered "poor" for farming yield and that the soil in the cavern layers is much better but where does "irrigated muddy rock floor" come in this scale? Is it exactly the same as a near-surface dirt plot or is it part-way between dirt and real cavern soil?

Are there any differences in the answer when comparing dwarven crops and surface crops (assuming light has been taken care of)?

I couldn't find an answer in the wiki.

Thanks!

[DanielCoffey]

Hmm... done some tests and here is what I observed...

Dwarven seed farm plot on near-surface soil : "poor soil (cavern soil is best)"
Dwarven seed farm plot on irrigated muddy stone : no description
Dwarven seed farm plot in deep cavern soil - not tested since I don't have a deep enough fort yet

Surface seed farm plot on outdoor surface soil : no description
Surface seed farm plot on near-surface soil : no description
Surface seed farm plot on "light" irrigated muddy stone : no description

I have heard anecdotally that "poor soil" is a 75% reduction compared to cavern soil. I would expect, given the lack of warning, that irrigated rock is in between (possibly 50%?) with the best reserved for real cavern plots.

It also seems that surface plants might be at full growth in surface or near surface soil and are probably still at this level of growth in irrigated but "light" muddy rock.

Sound plausible?

EDIT : I have just been informed on the Discord that "irrigated rock" and "real cavern soil" are functionally the same in terms of fertility for Dwarven crops and that I should consider real cavern soil to be bare rock with pre-applied mud.

[Superdorf]

I'd be curious whether irrigated near-surface soil is equivalent to irrigated rock. Seems like it should be.

[A_Curious_Cat]

Hmm... done some tests and here is what I observed...

Dwarven seed farm plot on near-surface soil : "poor soil (cavern soil is best)"
Dwarven seed farm plot on irrigated muddy stone : no description
Dwarven seed farm plot in deep cavern soil - not tested since I don't have a deep enough fort yet

Surface seed farm plot on outdoor surface soil : no description
Surface seed farm plot on near-surface soil : no description
Surface seed farm plot on "light" irrigated muddy stone : no description

I have heard anecdotally that "poor soil" is a 75% reduction compared to cavern soil. I would expect, given the lack of warning, that irrigated rock is in between (possibly 50%?) with the best reserved for real cavern plots.

It also seems that surface plants might be at full growth in surface or near surface soil and are probably still at this level of growth in irrigated but "light" muddy rock.

Sound plausible?

EDIT : I have just been informed on the Discord that "irrigated rock" and "real cavern soil" are functionally the same in terms of fertility for Dwarven crops and that I should consider real cavern soil to be bare rock with pre-applied mud.

Wait, are you growing surface crops underground (I.e. on regular, non-mud, soil tiles that have never been directly exposed to the sky)?

Also, is there any difference in yield between a regular, non-mud, surface tile that hasn’t been muddied, and one that has?

[Panando]

I'd be curious whether irrigated near-surface soil is equivalent to irrigated rock. Seems like it should be.

I believe what matters is whether the game labels it as "cavern floor" in its rough (unsmoothed etc) state.

[Inatun]

I was also hoping to do some science regarding soil quality, specifically if surface crops get a bonus from cavern soil if said soil has been exposed to sunlight. I had a very skilled planter keeping the fortress well supplied until he was drained of blood last night though, so now the science is going to have to be done with a bunch of newbies. Who knows, maybe that's for the best since if they all suck at the same level that'll be one less variable to account for.

I'm gonna try burrowing the lot of them in various places, have them tend to different crops in different soil, and monitor the seasonal output. Hopefully I can get some hard numbers.

Soil Conditions to Test

Underground Crops

• Surface Layer Soil
• Irrigated Stone
• Natural Cavern Soil

Surface Crops

• Natural Surface Soil
• Exposed Irrigated Stone
• Exposed Natural Cavern Soil

If someone has already done this, let me know. If it hasn't been done, I'd be proud to contribute to Dwarven science.

[Hans Lemurson]

If someone has already done this, let me know. If it hasn't been done, I'd be proud to contribute to Dwarven science.

I think you're going to be the pioneer here.  You have the right attitude and are already in motion.  Remember that it took quite some time for the first wiki to be compiled, and the changes you're testing are just a few months old in a game that is confusing even for veterans.

Be the change you want to see! (And other inspirational quotes that involve convincing you to labor on my behalf)

I do wonder something though:  How DOES one go about quantifying Agricultural production?
How do you track which plump helmets came from which farm?
How do you ensure that production isn't limited by seed availability?
If you run short on seeds, how do you figure out which pig-tail thread was already in your fort, and how much was freshly processed to return seeds to circulation?

[Telgin]

I believe Putnam has stated that muddy rock is equivalent to the cavern for underground crops, but past that I'm not sure if anyone has tested it or gotten an official answer.

[Inatun]

My plan to quantify crop output is basically to use different crops for each test plot. I'll also have to either make note of how much of each crop I have before starting the experiment and just look for the difference, or just flat out process everything before beginning. I'll also have to give my threshers, brewers, and cooks a break while doing this so that they don't mess with the numbers.

I'm also planning to leave the fields fallow the season before the experiment so that there aren't any old seeds carrying over into the experimental period. Come to think of it, the fields should probably be left fallow the season afterwards to give the dwarves the chance to harvest everything that was planted during the growing season. Once the final harvest comes in, I'll take a look at the stocks.

As for having enough seeds, that issue is probably a good reason to flat out process all the crops before starting. My seed cap per crop is 200 I think, so as long as the test plots aren't too big I shouldn't run into problems with running out of seeds mid-test, especially since it looks like I'll be doing this test with dabbling planters. That being said, if I ever get the notification that a planter has run out of seeds during the test period then I'm going to have to restart the experiment.

I do have one question that's important to the experiment. I know that a higher planter skill is associated with faster grow times and larger stack sizes upon harvesting. What I need to know though is if different crops have different base growing times and if some are prone to larger stack sizes than others. If they're all the same then I can get away with my plan to use different crops all at once during a season, but if not then I'm going to need to space out the experiments so that I don't run into the problem of trying to figure out which plump helmets came from which plot.

[Blue_Dwarf]

I know that a higher planter skill is associated with faster grow times and larger stack sizes upon harvesting. What I need to know though is if different crops have different base growing times and if some are prone to larger stack sizes than others.

A higher planter skill only increases the resulting stack sizes (fertilizing also does just that). Crops grow time is always the same, but varies between crops (sweet pods take longer to grow).

[Inatun]

I know that a higher planter skill is associated with faster grow times and larger stack sizes upon harvesting. What I need to know though is if different crops have different base growing times and if some are prone to larger stack sizes than others.

A higher planter skill only increases the resulting stack sizes (fertilizing also does just that). Crops grow time is always the same, but varies between crops (sweet pods take longer to grow).

Dang, well that makes my plan a bit more complicated since now I have to use a single type of crop for the underground and surface areas. I guess I'm just going to have to lock each grower in their own little area with enough food and booze to last a few months so that I can observe how much each plot produces individually. Either that or I just perform the test over multiple seasons, but that would rely on the fortress continuing to function for such a long time.

[Blue_Dwarf]

I know that a higher planter skill is associated with faster grow times and larger stack sizes upon harvesting. What I need to know though is if different crops have different base growing times and if some are prone to larger stack sizes than others.

A higher planter skill only increases the resulting stack sizes (fertilizing also does just that). Crops grow time is always the same, but varies between crops (sweet pods take longer to grow).

Dang, well that makes my plan a bit more complicated since now I have to use a single type of crop for the underground and surface areas. I guess I'm just going to have to lock each grower in their own little area with enough food and booze to last a few months so that I can observe how much each plot produces individually. Either that or I just perform the test over multiple seasons, but that would rely on the fortress continuing to function for such a long time.

Grow times are either 30000 or 50000 ticks (25 days or 41 days) for any crop. You can just use the wiki to select your crop types.
https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Farming

I'm not sure what is the grow speed of the aboveground crops, but it should be one of the two.

You can probably even mod the [GROWDUR] to make them grow faster or slower, whichever you need for the tests.

[Inatun]

Now part of me wants to check to see if cavern soil modifies growth speed as well as stack size upon harvest. I suppose I can measure growth speed by the number of stacks produced at the end of the experimental period.

[Panando]

IMO it's better to do experiments in a new fortress, 1x1 embark may as well. For this one you can embark with plenty of seeds.

Make the setups, then save the game, run one trail, record how much was produced, and reload, and run again. Reloading to the same initial state helps reduce variables (runs are not precisely reproducible even with the exact same dwarf, but it's better than using different dwarves). You can speed up time to a huge degree depending on how compact the embark is and how fast your CPU is, but you should be able to do in minutes what might take an hour in a "real" fortress.

[Inatun]

I'm loading up a throwaway fort now with a loadout geared towards performing the experiment. I'll make sure to make a save immediately upon embark to revert to after completing a season of growing and recording the stock numbers. I'm bringing a boatload of plump helmet spawn and grapes in the hopes that I can have enough seeds to last a season without having to process any of the crops. I'll be testing the six different soil conditions I mentioned previously unless someone else has conditions they want me to test.