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[Michael]

A streamer I watch has started playing DF, now that the commercial version is out (he hates CP437).  At the time he started, I hadn't played in a long while (I'm not a CP437 hater, so the steam release was not big news for me), and had never played deep enough in a recent enough version to worry about temples or guildhalls.

In his first run, he was petitioned to build a temple and said no.  But the same petition reappeared over and over, and his stream chat pointed out that the unhappiness from each refusal "stacks".

Isn't this kind of lame?  If the religious (or union) fools can petition forever, the player's option to say "no" becomes rather meaningless.  Either the player crumples or happiness inevitably drops to tantrum levels....

The chat also suggested just saying "yes" but not doing anything as a way to effectively refuse with less happiness loss.  If that truly works it would separately count as a flaw in the game.

[brewer bob]

That just makes sense that they'd petition over and over until they get what they want. It's what people (try to) do in the real world, too.

It'd be much more lame if they didn't re-petition and would be "ok, that's it then".

[Bronimin]

If you don't want to make a guildhall/temple of a certain type, exile followers lf that religion/profession then reject the proposal. Put them under the threshold and they won't re-petition.

[Michael]

That just makes sense that they'd petition over and over until they get what they want. It's what people (try to) do in the real world, too.

The problem is that (according to his chat) the penalty for saying no is the same each time and cumulative, which gives any cult pressure power that is unreasonably infinite.  Refusing an identical ask 20 times should be treated as just 1 No, not 20.

And there's also his chat's recommendation to just string the cultists along by saying Yes and forgetting about it. In the long term that should only turn out worse for the player than honest repeated Nos, but apparently not in the current game.

(I'm assuming the people who said that in chat are speaking accurately about how the current version of DF truly works.)

[Panando]

It's probably a bug that they immediately re-petition.

One possible solution to petitions is to make the room but have it permanently locked so it's there, satisfies all the requirements, but no-one can waste time in it.

[Michael]

One possible solution to petitions is to make the room but have it permanently locked so it's there, satisfies all the requirements, but no-one can waste time in it.

Clever.  But I think for most people, the time spent building the temple/guildhall is what the player seeks to save by saying No, and your trick doesn't skip any of that work.

Before you brought it up, I didn't even realize there could be an issue of dwarves taking more frequent breaks so they can use the temple.

[anewaname]

If you need a fast guildhall, a tiny room with a pedestal containing a few high quality silver weapons is enough.

[brewer bob]

I don't know what's the situation with .50, but in .47 I never had any tantruming or stress accumulation caused by refusing petitions. And by the time they re-petitioned their moods had already calmed down. But if they're immediately re-petitioning, I think that shouldn't be happening.

If you need a fast guildhall, a tiny room with a pedestal containing a few high quality silver weapons is enough.

Another is to slap an artifact on one. (But if you allow visitors to the fort, there's the very likely risk of someone stealing it.)

[Michael]

I called up the VOD (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1687191206) of the stream and counted the petitions.  He was petitioned by the same cult on:

Malachite 16 (But it was Malachite 19 when he clicked the petition button)
Galena 5 (reacted on Galena 7)
Galena 12
Galena 18
Galena 28 (reacted on Limestone 26)
Sandstone 1 (gave in on Sandstone 28)

He finally gave in on the advice of chat after he noticed a dwarf was mysteriously (to him) at the second-to-lowest happiness level.

Note that this suggests rudeness may be the answer.  Ignored petitions seem to take at least a month to expire, but when he reacted promptly he was nagged four times in a month.

[Panando]

Clever.  But I think for most people, the time spent building the temple/guildhall is what the player seeks to save by saying No, and your trick doesn't skip any of that work.

There's an exploit for that too™: sharing high value tiles between multiple zones. A floor made of platinum, gold or steel, with a high quality engraving on it can achieve a very high value, for example a masterwork gold floor tile = 3600 value. Normally if you tried to share that floor between multiple zones, there would be a massive penalty to the room values due to overlap, solution: build a door on the floor (the door has to be between two walls), a door tile can contribute its full value to any number of zones. Basically make like two masterwork steel floor engravings or a few more lower quality ones, put doors on them, and you can paint any number of zones for instant high value rooms.

Even if you don't want to go this exploit route, if you have a legendary engraver you can make tiny very high value rooms by having engraved metal bar floors and even with lesser metals the rooms don't need to be very big.

[Michael]

There's an exploit for that too™

Wow, that's really broken.  Although the problem isn't the lack of overlap checking for doors, but that v50 allows non-contiguous rooms.  With contiguous rooms, you'd only double the value of the tile.  (Also, I understand 0.47 was broken the other way; entry doors couldn't count at all to ensure they would never be counted twice.)

Non-contiguous rooms would also allow you to trick dwarves into living very densely while thinking they each have massive living space....

With or without the cheats, yours is also a somewhat late-game solution.  Cultists can start nagging you in somewhat early-game, before you have metal production online or well-practised engravers.  Indeed, a big reason for a player to want to refuse is that so he can focus all his attention on other tasks such as getting metal production started.